April 15th Hearing

[kbl8201]

i dont get this, it will load the court stuff and the defendents but not the states for me. arghhhhhh

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Hi everyone I am back. Actually never went away just dont' always log in. Ok Kbl. Is this the site you were thinking about.

http://www.accessinterviews.com/interviews/view/16542

This is that witch Patricia claiming her innocence interview. In it she say Jaycee was never complaining and always helping out around the house. aka maid slave.

I had an interesting conversation with a reporter from Associated Press about this interview a couple of months ago. She was of the opinion that this interview may be a hoax made up by the reporter. It only appeared in a British tabloid and no other reporter has been able to get to Patricia Franzen for an interview. I do not know if this theory is correct, but it is intriguing.

 

[jazerelle]

I can easily believe that.

 

[jazerelle]

This matter is definitely dragging on but then it gives us time to think. Thinking is good. So here is a thought which was probably already mentioned somewhere. It is extremely obvious that Phil was using the girls to keep her prisoner. According to prosecuting attorney's opposition that was filed she was kept in the shed for 1.5 years, long enough for the heat to die down even though he was hours from the kidnapping area. (Wonder if she had a chamber pot and who cleaned it. . I digress). Anyway then the same paper said she was not allowed to leave the back years for 4 years (I am thinking the 1.5 years is part of the 4 years). By then she had one of the girls or was at least really pregnant. No way she could run away then and leave her daughter behind. And as far as Nancy be not guilty. Although I think she was working at this time, there is nothing out there that says that. It says she started working in 94 and I believe Phil was working (could be wrong) so Jaycee was alone caring for an infant (wonder if she was locked up when they were working both before and after 1994). Jaycee was and is one tough person to survive this. Ok enough thoughts. Laters peoples.

 

[Natal]

Didn't leave the back yard probably means didnt leave the back yard, in other words she was living in the tent city at that point. I'm guessing that leaving the backyard after the 4 years was up means going into the house and later on for occasional excursions beyond that perhaps.

At this point until we get further information the only thing we can say for sure is that she was locked up for the first 1.5 years. After that, who knows.

I'm curious how they determined that she could be trusted enough not to run away after the 1.5 years though. Or how they managed to stop her from going crazy during the 1.5 years. That's a long time to be stuck in a room, especially for a child.

 

[kbl8201]

well if you look at the july 1993 entry it seemed they had jaycee pretty much under control by then.

 

[Natal]

Ya well, if someone kidnapped me and kept me locked up in a room for years, I'd tell them what they wanted to hear but first chance I got I'd be over the wall. I think that is what most people would do, however she obviously didn't so it would be reasonable to conclude that she was a team player by that point (for whatever reason). That said, my question still is how could they be sure that was the case and she wasn't going to run at the earliest opportunity?

I don't think you can read too much into that journal entry btw because we don't know the context, or what was in the journal before and after the entry.

 

[kbl8201]

well werent part of the chares before late 94 (first daughters birth) that he was threatning people (Most likely terry and shayna) to keep her in line?

 

[kbl8201]

btw, its very easy for any of us to sit back and say 'i wouldnt done this if i was her!!!'

well we arent her. we didnt experience anything she went thru, we didnt know what this freak promised to do to the people she loved if she tried to escape.

we also cant sit here and even know if we'd have survived if we were in her shoes.

 

[Natal]

well werent part of the chares before late 94 (first daughters birth) that he was threatning people (Most likely terry and shayna) to keep her in line?

No, there weren't any charges involving threatening.

 

[nina1441]

Ya well, if someone kidnapped me and kept me locked up in a room for years, I'd tell them what they wanted to hear but first chance I got I'd be over the wall. I think that is what most people would do, however she obviously didn't so it would be reasonable to conclude that she was a team player by that point (for whatever reason). That said, my question still is how could they be sure that was the case and she wasn't going to run at the earliest opportunity?

Being locked up in a room?. I find that a callous & flippant way of describing solitary confinement .

And as far saying what we as adults would do as 12.5-13 yr olds after 1.5 yrs of solitary confinement, is not only naïve but belittles the seriousness of this type of torture this child endured.

Solitary confinement has been a contentious legal issue for hundreds of years as it pertains to criminal prisoners & prisoners of war because of the devastating psychological effects it can have. (including psychosis & debilitating depression)

Just one example- From the New Yorker magazine article on solitary confinement 3-30-2009:

“It’s an awful thing, solitary,” John McCain wrote of his five and a half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam—more than two years of it spent in isolation in a fifteen-by-fifteen-foot cell, unable to communicate with other P.O.W.s except by tap code, secreted notes, or by speaking into an enamel cup pressed against the wall. “It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment.” And this comes from a man who was beaten regularly; denied adequate medical treatment for two broken arms, a broken leg, and chronic dysentery; and tortured to the point of having an arm broken again.

A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.

And yet all these hardened adult men were just being “locked up”.

And the term “team player” denotes free will to join something and to stay.

Jaycee Dugard was psychologically broken. She was a 12.5 yr old humpty dumpty that 2 degenerates put back together they way they wanted her to be. To call her a team player at this point is just cruel.

 

[Natal]

btw, its very easy for any of us to sit back and say 'i wouldnt done this if i was her!!!'

well we arent her. we didnt experience anything she went thru, we didnt know what this freak promised to do to the people she loved if she tried to escape.

we also cant sit here and even know if we'd have survived if we were in her shoes.

That isn't true. Lots of people in captivity cooperate and will say/do anything until they get a chance to get out of their situation. Prisons are filled with people like that. In fact, even this case has one we know about for sure, namely PG himself. Most people in that situation aren't victims, but the basic psychology is the same.

 

[Natal]

Ya well, if someone kidnapped me and kept me locked up in a room for years, I'd tell them what they wanted to hear but first chance I got I'd be over the wall. I think that is what most people would do, however she obviously didn't so it would be reasonable to conclude that she was a team player by that point (for whatever reason). That said, my question still is how could they be sure that was the case and she wasn't going to run at the earliest opportunity?

Being locked up in a room?. I find that a callous & flippant way of describing solitary confinement .

And as far saying what we as adults would do as 12.5-13 yr olds after 1.5 yrs of solitary confinement, is not only naïve but belittles the seriousness of this type of torture this child endured.

Solitary confinement has been a contentious legal issue for hundreds of years as it pertains to criminal prisoners & prisoners of war because of the devastating psychological effects it can have. (including psychosis & debilitating depression)

Just one example- From the New Yorker magazine article on solitary confinement 3-30-2009:

“It’s an awful thing, solitary,” John McCain wrote of his five and a half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam—more than two years of it spent in isolation in a fifteen-by-fifteen-foot cell, unable to communicate with other P.O.W.s except by tap code, secreted notes, or by speaking into an enamel cup pressed against the wall. “It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment.” And this comes from a man who was beaten regularly; denied adequate medical treatment for two broken arms, a broken leg, and chronic dysentery; and tortured to the point of having an arm broken again.

A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered.

And yet all these hardened adult men were just being “locked up”.

And the term “team player” denotes free will to join something and to stay.

Jaycee Dugard was psychologically broken. She was a 12.5 yr old humpty dumpty that 2 degenerates put back together they way they wanted her to be. To call her a team player at this point is just cruel.

You are allowing emotion to interfere with objectivity. The fact is that most people in that situation would escape when the opportunity presented itself. You use McCain as your example. If he found himself outside of the prison and unattended do you honestly think that he would have done nothing and gone back to his cell?????? I know what I would have done.

A team player is someone who is cooperating and participating. I made no comment or judgement about how she came to be doing that, only that she apparently was. That is what the disclaimer "(for whatever reason)" means.

 

[kbl8201]

natal you seem to downplay or excuse everything that she went thru, and i would really like to know why.

 

[MCDRAW]

That isn't true. Lots of people in captivity cooperate and will say/do anything until they get a chance to get out of their situation. Prisons are filled with people like that. In fact, even this case has one we know about for sure, namely PG himself. Most people in that situation aren't victims, but the basic psychology is the same.

Are you saying that she wasn't a victim because she didn't try to escape? To blame a little girl for not trying to escape and calling her a team player is wrong on so many levels.

 

[kbl8201]

Are you saying that she wasn't a victim because she didn't try to escape? To blame a little girl for not trying to escape and calling her a team player is wrong on so many levels.

:woohoo:

 

[nina1441]

You are allowing emotion to interfere with objectivity. The fact is that most people in that situation would escape when the opportunity presented itself. You use McCain as your example. If he found himself outside of the prison and unattended do you honestly think that he would have done nothing and gone back to his cell?????? I know what I would have done.

Fact. An eleven year old was tortured.
Fact. Grown men have gone through the similar situations with severe mental issues.
Fact Children do not have the emotional & mental foundation to weather such abuse in the same manner adults do.

Again, the use of an adult example was to best exemplify the severe emotional trauma of solitary confinement. I trusted that a reasonable person would then extrapolate that adult trauma and then magnify that trauma onto a child. There is no massive amount of information concerning children torture victims. Hence the use of adult victims examples.

A team player is someone who is cooperating and participating.

A slave can cooperate & participate. A team player volunteers to join & stay with an endeavor. Again, FREE WILL. And again, I will state that the term “team player” is cold & cruel when applied to a child that was tortured.


I made no comment or judgment about how she came to be doing that, only that she apparently was. That is what the disclaimer "(for whatever reason)" means.

Funny. I found that whole post to be negatively judgmental towards a child victim and that’s why I replied.

 

[jazerelle]

Ok back to what I said originally and to correct someone response to what I said. The document said she was held in that shed for 1.5 years, never left the shed. Then it said she never left the back yard for 4 years. Ok if the 4 years was part of the 1.5 years that means that poor girl was held in solitary confinement, except for her jailers for 4 years. 4 years is a lifetime for a child. She may have been allowed in the yard but I bet during those times she was closely supervised. Remember the little boy saw her said hi then she was pulled away and the fence made taller. So by the time she was actually allowed out of that back yard into the house or the first back yard she had a child. And she herself was still a child. A tormented and abused child. No way would she leave without bringing that baby with her. Phil and Nancy told her only they cared for her "only they would give her a kitten" and probably made comments during those 4 years to mentally keep her captive in addition to the fact they did not allow her any freedom at all without being supervised. Child molesters do that to control their victims. Like I suggested before, when they were not around she was most likely again locked up. Grown people have a hard time in solitary imagine how much worse it is for a child. It is truely amazing she survived.

 

[jazerelle]

Also as far a cooperating. I guess Katie cooperated through the pain and remember she was 24. And she was very petite and skinny and he shaved her to make her look even more like a child. Jaycee was going through the same pain and abuse he put Katie through and she was only a child. He was way stronger than her. I think in both cases a better word to cooperating is enduring. She had no choice about what awful things he was doing to her and making her do. Awful things that only stopped when she no longer fit his image of what turned him on. Once she had a woman's body (happens after two kids and a few years) she lost the little girl body so he just wasn't interested. But now she had two kids and no way would she ever leave them behind. So, like I originally said, Phil, and Nancy too I am sure, held her hostage by threat of her losing her children.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I finally heard back from my source concerning Barbara Cerf-Major. He struck out trying to get an interview.