April 22 weekend of Sleuthiness

[zenreaper]

She did NOT have all the passports. And numerous people here have stated that a parent needs the permission of the other parent in order to take minor children from the country. Her attorney, AS, advised her as such. When her parents were leaving only days before, her mother said Nancy was crying, saying 'I just want to come home.'

Ah, he RECENTLY took ONE of the kids passports, and left her with one, assuring that neither of them could go with both the kids. As for the permission needed, you forget, they wouldn't BE "leaving the country", and they were here on a VISA, and were citizens of Canada, they would be going HOME.

 

[otto]

She did NOT have all the passports. And numerous people here have stated that a parent needs the permission of the other parent in order to take minor children from the country. Her attorney, AS, advised her as such. When her parents were leaving only days before, her mother said Nancy was crying, saying 'I just want to come home.'

She would have needed both the passports and a document, signed by Brad, outlining her plans. The children could have possibly been taken across a small border crossing without the letter of persmission, but not if there was a moving truck in the party.

Nancy needed one of these: http://www.voyage.gc.ca/preparation_information/documents/consent-letter_lettre-consentement-eng.pdf

The reason for this is explicitly to prevent parents from taking children out of the country without consent of both parents. Nancy was getting way ahead of herself telling people that she was moving to Toronto without first sorting out out the custody issues.

 

[zenreaper]

Brad stalked the woman he dated prior to marrying Nancy. He broke into her apartment & stalked her. IIRC, she has posted here in the past, as have others who knew Brad & Nancy in Canada.

I saw no proof that he stalked anyone. Neighbors CLAIMED he broke into the apartment, but wouldn't there be a police record? As for moving into the same apartment complex, if he DEFINITELY broke into her unit, can you see the owners/managers allowing him to move INTO a different unit?

 

[zenreaper]

She would have needed both the passports and a document, signed by Brad, outlining her plans. The children could have possibly been taken across a small border crossing without the letter of persmission, but not if there was a moving truck in the party.

Nancy needed one of these: http://www.voyage.gc.ca/preparation_information/documents/consent-letter_lettre-consentement-eng.pdf

The reason for this is explicitly to prevent parents from taking children out of the country without consent of both parents. Nancy was getting way ahead of herself telling people that she was moving to Toronto without first sorting out out the custody issues.

That is for US citizens LEAVING the country. If I am an American in Mexico, I do not need anything to take me and my kids across the border BACK to my country of origin.

 

[gracielee]

Her parents gave her money, something like $20 or $25k. Why didn't she use that to rent a small place on her own? I agree that she was trapped in the sense that she was going to have a huge change in lifestyle if she moved out of the matrimonial home, but was she really trapped and unable to rent something else?

If you listened to the testimony, that money was used to pay for the bear painting, and the rest went to pay off bills. Bills from both Brad & Nancy. That money was long gone, long before Brad finally admitted that yes, he did have an affair with HM, and he was in love with her. That was the final zinger for Nancy, and that was at least a year after that money from Nancy's parents had been spent. She didn't know she'd need a place to live when her parents gave her that money. She still believed Brad when he said he hadn't been with HM. That was before he told nancy he loved HM.

 

[Bottle Cap]

I saw no proof that he stalked anyone. Neighbors CLAIMED he broke into the apartment, but wouldn't there be a police record? As for moving into the same apartment complex, if he DEFINITELY broke into her unit, can you see the owners/managers allowing him to move INTO a different unit?

Now even the Canadian neighbors are in on the conspiracy! It is a far-reaching one indeed!

 

[GhostCrab]

She would have needed both the passports and a document, signed by Brad, outlining her plans. The children could have possibly been taken across a small border crossing without the letter of persmission, but not if there was a moving truck in the party.

Nancy needed one of these: http://www.voyage.gc.ca/preparation_information/documents/consent-letter_lettre-consentement-eng.pdf

The reason for this is explicitly to prevent parents from taking children out of the country without consent of both parents. Nancy was getting way ahead of herself telling people that she was moving to Toronto without first sorting out out the custody issues.

Otto..I've had similar thoughts, I don't know why she was telling everyone she was leaving when nothing she was doing was really preparing for that. She hadn't even had contact with her attorney to have her move forward on anything. It was like a divorce that really wasn't a divorce.

 

[johnfear]

Kids born here = US Citizens, no?

 

[gracielee]

Originally Posted by sunshine05
What???

Sorry, that was snarky. It happened in Canada in the pre-Nancy days.

Edit - I thought it was, but maybe not.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=8011896


-----------

Yeah, Brad's friends said he'd said that at lunch, didn't they? He'd bragged about it to them.

 

[GhostCrab]

Originally Posted by sunshine05
What???

Sorry, that was snarky. It happened in Canada in the pre-Nancy days.

Edit - I thought it was, but maybe not.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=8011896


-----------

Yeah, Brad's friends said he'd said that at lunch, didn't they? He'd bragged about it to them.

I think CD brought it up, that B had said that to him one time when they were hanging out with the guys.

 

[johnfear]

Also, there is testimony from the prosecution that the SA was for BC's eyes and that he had attempted to hire Rosen Law to deal with his side, but a check had bounced and he had begun floating a myriad of "other" alternatives to NC and AS. (the nanny stuff, etc)

And someone was talking about the Greenstone Lane address earlier. I think that was meant to be what the google search was about. Googling the wrong address and ending up in the area, but not ON the exact spot because it can't find the number.

You have to backrev all the techno stuff three years for this case and remember what June/July 2008 would have been like. (Cell phone backup data was a little less regularily used, Google maps were on different server setup and have advanced a WHOLE lot since then)

 

[gracielee]

I see his point. I am the same size and body type as N was and I am a hardcore runner, so I assume my physical fitness is above average. And you can best believe that if I were attacked I would fight back hard. We had a runner attacked in our neighborhood several years ago and when we (my friends and I) run we carry mace and are always aware of our surroundings.

And when Nancy's father testifed, he stated that Nancy always carried her keys in her hands, and that he'd shown her how to hold her keys, making them sort of like a cross between brass knuckles and little daggers sticking through her fingers. Dad said that was how Nancy ran, with her keys sticking through her fingers, to use against any would be attacker. And they all said 'nancy never ran alone'.

 

[GhostCrab]

Kids born here = US Citizens, no?

Yes! There are some in government trying to change that right now, tho.

 

[GhostCrab]

And when Nancy's father testifed, he stated that Nancy always carried her keys in her hands, and that he'd shown her how to hold her keys, making them sort of like a cross between brass knuckles and little daggers sticking through her fingers. Dad said that was how Nancy ran, with her keys sticking through her fingers, to use against any would be attacker. And they all said 'nancy never ran alone'.

With all due respect N's dad wasn't here and didn't see what she ran with. I am willing to bet that she didn't run like that much. It is very uncomfortable to run holding something in your hand. My friends and I , we all take turns holding the mace because no one wants to run with it.

 

[gracielee]

I know that you have posted before that you find reading a spouse's e-mail and/or eavesdropping on their phone calls to be gross, offensive, evil, etc. And, I know that if someone suggests that it is not nearly as uncommon as you seem to think it is, you accuse them of condoning the behavior. But, I'll take that risk.

I challenge you to find any research/data that suggests that snooping on spouses' phone calls and/or e-mails is a "gateway crime" to murder. As I've posted several times before, typically lawyers tell clients that are going through ugly separations/divorces to expect that this is going to happen. That doesn't make it right, but it happens. A lot. However, I until someone points us to actual data that draws a correlation between this behavior and murder, I don't believe it. There are tons of spouse's going through divorces who snoop and don't commit murder and there are tons of spouses who commit murder, but didn't snoop on e-mail.

This was a mistake on NC's attorney's part. If she had experience in family law, knew that Brad was technical, and knew that there was already suspicion of him eavesdropping on phone calls, it was foolish of her to be sending info that she didn't want BC to see via e-mail.

Brad set the Cisco phone system up in their home in January, long before any 'divorce proceedings'. Nancy Cooper did not retain AS until April, IIRC.

 

[otto]

I’ve been following all of your thoughts and comments on this case, in addition to reading the original case documents and watching some (not all) trial video, and want to throw two things into the ring for your consideration…will enjoy seeing your comments.

AL and her book got some comments yesterday…wondering how many of you have read Joseph Wambaugh’s “Echoes in the Darkness” or watched the mini-series?
One of the defendants, Dr Jay Smith, after having been found guilty of murder (actually, three murders) was later released from prison with the conviction overturned by the Commonwealth of PA.

Why?
a) it was proven in court that the police actively suppressed a piece of evidence that would have supported the defense’s case that the murders happened somewhere else AND…
b) the lead investigator in the case, a PA state trooper, received a $50k payoff from Wambaugh…thing is, he would only get the money if the defendant was found guilty.

What a coincidence. (By the way, I think that the defendant was guilty…had this evidence been presented it court at the time of the original trial, I don’t believe it would have altered the outcome.)

I am not saying that I think AL is paying off the Cary PD to get a guilty verdict and sell her book. I present this rather as an extreme example of how relationships between crime writers / investigations can affect the outcome of a case.

This takes me to the second thing I’ve been pondering. Originally, Scottish law had two verdicts available for juries – “Proven” and “Not Proven.” Eventually, “Not Guilty” came into use where it appeared that evidence showed the defendant truly was innocent; while those found “Not Proven” could retain a tinge of guilt.

Part of me likes this – it underlines the task of reviewing evidence. Does the evidence prove the case, or does it not prove the case? Nothing more, nothing less…

With this in mind, it appears to me so far that this would be the correct verdict. Nothing exculpatory presented, but also nothing damning enough for me to say “You have PROVEN this to me.”

I do think it is possible to build convincing chains of circumstantial evidence; but do not think that has been done in this case.

There's definitely some conflict of interest in AL reporting on the story, and writing a book where the cover clearly indicates that she believes he's guilty. I read an interview she gave about the case where everything she said was about "marriage & murder".

 

[otto]

That is for US citizens LEAVING the country. If I am an American in Mexico, I do not need anything to take me and my kids across the border BACK to my country of origin.

She needed that to take the children to Canada, since they were born in the US.

 

[GhostCrab]

Brad set the Cisco phone system up in their home in January, long before any 'divorce proceedings'. Nancy Cooper did not retain AS until April, IIRC.

If I recall, I thing the last real substantive conversation that AS has with N was in April but that she had retained her several months before.

 

[otto]

Otto..I've had similar thoughts, I don't know why she was telling everyone she was leaving when nothing she was doing was really preparing for that. She hadn't even had contact with her attorney to have her move forward on anything. It was like a divorce that really wasn't a divorce.

I agree, it looks like she was moving in ten directions at once, but not following through with any of them.

 

[otto]

Kids born here = US Citizens, no?

They may have had dual citizenship, depending on whether Brad and Nancy looked after that paperwork when they were born. In fact, that should have been one of the first steps in terms of moving to Canada, and I doubt Brad would have objected to that.