ARDI -- new hope The return of the IDI

[BBB167893]

Call me weird, but, even after puberty, doesn't most female mastubation revolve around the clitoris, NOT vaginal penetration?:blushing:

So is Rumor or Fact that wooden splinters were found in JBR's vagina?

Fact. A wooden splinter was found.

 

[DeeDee249]

Call me weird, but, even after puberty, doesn't most female mastubation revolve around the clitoris, NOT vaginal penetration?:blushing:

Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. And what of the vaginal trauma? Traces of blood, bruising...that was NOT from bubblebath. Or overzealous cleansing. To suggest these things were self-inflicted is an absolute disgrace against an innocent child. To suggest it simply because of the refusal to consider parental abuse is disgusting.

 

[voynich]

Correct. That is why the idea that the hymenal erosion was caused by JB herself is so ridiculous. And what of the vaginal trauma? Traces of blood, bruising...that was NOT from bubblebath. Or overzealous cleansing. To suggest these things were self-inflicted is an absolute disgrace against an innocent child. To suggest it simply because of the refusal to consider parental abuse is disgusting.

Is it possible that say JB played doctor w/say BR, found it pleasurable and continued on her own?:waitasec: I've heard it claimed by lesbians and feminists that girls will play with girls "down there". I want to make it clear I'm just the messenger.

And while I'm not female, if I were, why not masturbate BOTH clitoris and vagina? I imagine that's what I would do.

How often could an adult insert his or her finger into a 5 y/o girl and NOT rupture her hymen?

It should be possible to construct a replica using latex and rubber of a 5 y/o and perform test trials but I suspect that it is not possible.

 

[Mysteeri]

I imagine this double masturbation is more common in certain movies than in reality, especially with little girls (but what do I know).

Concerning the topic of ARDI, I find this very interesting. So a sexual crime by an intruder happened close by the Ramseys and not long after JB`s death. Why didn`t the police think these crimes were connected? On what basis did they exclude this intruder from JB`s murder?

 

[Sophie]

Yes, Voynich, certainly the female, er, masturbatory* aids on the market tend to support your notion. However, these are intended for sexually mature women whose hormones and feminine sexual bits and pieces are ready for such treatment. If I am understanding DeeDee correctly, these are absent in a prepubescent girl and that, while clitoral stimulation may produce some sort of pleasure for a child, vaginal penetration will cause no pleasure and a lot of pain. I imagine there is a psychologist in our midst who can explain this theory properly (and more accurately) but Freud actually believed that children and teens had clitoral orgasms while more mature women had vaginal orgasms. This statement was made with some ignorance of anatomy and has been roundly ridiculed by many (mostly people equipped with the relative paraphernalia - ie.women) but it was apparently made following a significant study of child and teen behaviour, a study which apparently suggested that most younger girls only used clitoral stimulation.

* This is possibly the oddest conversation I've ever had on the Net!

 

[voynich]

I imagine this double masturbation is more common in certain movies than in reality, especially with little girls (but what do I know).

Concerning the topic of ARDI, I find this very interesting. So a sexual crime by an intruder happened close by the Ramseys and not long after JB`s death. Why didn`t the police think these crimes were connected? On what basis did they exclude this intruder from JB`s murder?

The links I provided, the police just took a statement, but even Amy's father said Boulder LE was 100% focused on R's as the prime suspects. The father stated he's disappointed that regardless to a connection to the R's, he felt that LE other than taking a statement, did not investigate.

They would not even draw a sketch with a sketch artist and distribute have you seen this man? wanted for questioning. A young girls gets raped in her own hope, and it appears all the police did was take a report. There's no mention of a rape exam.

I do wonder if those records could be made available online via some kinda of FOIA request, or if Amy/mother would agree to some kind of interview.

That police report, redacted, I wonder if it can be accessed.

 

[Sophie]

Hi Voynich. A couple of things:

1) The differences between the two cases are greater than the similarities and, if it were the same offender just varying his MO to confound the police, then he would be Moriarty to the Nth power. His control and deviousness certainly point to a special and rare brand of criminal - one who commits an almost perfect crime but never feels the need to brag about it or demonstrate that he is capable of pulling off the coup more than once.

2) Just a musing but I wonder whether Mervyn and Linda Hoffman-Pugh, Chris Woolf, Bill and even Janet McReynolds, the 'Deliverance' guy in Georgia, Jeff Merrick, John Eustace Brewer (or Brewer Eustace: I can never remember), the slightly odd vagrant, the photographer (Randy Watsisface), the bloke who set the fire, the gardener, the guy who Lou Smit hauled out of prison before checking him out, etc etc almost ad infinitum, think that LE was 100% persuaded from day one that RDI.

 

[madeleine]

Btw Sophie,did you (or anyone else) hear about experts having a profile for this alledged intruder?
Maybe you can't have a profile for this one because he doesn't even exist?

 

[BBB167893]

How often could an adult insert his or her finger into a 5 y/o girl and NOT rupture her hymen?

Depends on how far they went.

It should be possible to construct a replica using latex and rubber of a 5 y/o and perform test trials but I suspect that it is not possible.

If it is, I certainly haven't heard of it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I find it extremely disturbing that we are even discussing child masturbation and that some seem bent on placing the blame for her vaginal trauma on JB herself. Where does that behavior originate anyway in a child? ABUSE. It need not be abuse by an adult- an older child engaging in sex play is still ABUSE.
6-year old girls do not "discover" sexual pleasure by themselves. If they have been shown what to do- they have been abused. I don't care WHO showed them.

 

[Ravyn]

I find it extremely disturbing that we are even discussing child masturbation and that some seem bent on placing the blame for her vaginal trauma on JB herself. Where does that behavior originate anyway in a child? ABUSE. It need not be abuse by an adult- an older child engaging in sex play is still ABUSE.
6-year old girls do not "discover" sexual pleasure by themselves. If they have been shown what to do- they have been abused. I don't care WHO showed them.

:clap:

Well said and I totally agree with you...

 

[voynich]

I find it extremely disturbing that we are even discussing child masturbation and that some seem bent on placing the blame for her vaginal trauma on JB herself. Where does that behavior originate anyway in a child? ABUSE. It need not be abuse by an adult- an older child engaging in sex play is still ABUSE.
6-year old girls do not "discover" sexual pleasure by themselves. If they have been shown what to do- they have been abused. I don't care WHO showed them.

I'm not suggesting that JB is guilty of anything. I'm questioning how an adult could insert his finger w/o tearing the hymen, and do this multiple times. If say the first time this happened when she was 4, then it would more likely rupture and tear.

If it is worn, but not torn, and this started when she was 3, I would suspect that an equally small child-size finger "eroded" her hymenel opening.

 

[voynich]

Btw Sophie,did you (or anyone else) hear about experts having a profile for this alledged intruder?
Maybe you can't have a profile for this one because he doesn't even exist?

Do we have a profile of Amy's rapist?

 

[voynich]

Hi Voynich. A couple of things:

1) The differences between the two cases are greater than the similarities and, if it were the same offender just varying his MO to confound the police, then he would be Moriarty to the Nth power. His control and deviousness certainly point to a special and rare brand of criminal - one who commits an almost perfect crime but never feels the need to brag about it or demonstrate that he is capable of pulling off the coup more than once.
DI.

Of course I know in Amy no RN was written or left behind. And of course the rape was interrupted by Amy's mother so we can only speculate what might have been Amy's fate.

So I grant 1- no RN note, 2- no murder if only b/c Amy's mother interrupted. But what are these greater differences you speak of? Amy reports both oral sex and finger but not penile/semen. What was this guy doing 9 months earlier on Dec 25, 1996? What's he doing now?

What if DNA found on Amy matches unknown DNA found on JB with say an OJ-level 1-20 billion marker match?

 

[Sophie]

Of course I know in Amy no RN was written or left behind. And of course the rape was interrupted by Amy's mother so we can only speculate what might have been Amy's fate.

So I grant 1- no RN note, 2- no murder if only b/c Amy's mother interrupted. But what are these greater differences you speak of? Amy reports both oral sex and finger but not penile/semen. What was this guy doing 9 months earlier on Dec 25, 1996? What's he doing now?

What if DNA found on Amy matches unknown DNA found on JB with say an OJ-level 1-20 billion marker match?

Must say, Voynich, that I thought this lead had been investigated at some point and that it was something of an urban myth that it had been ignored BUT assuming it wasn't for present purposes, you'd still have to assume that the DNA in both cases was on CODIS. I just don't see Mary Lacy missing such an opportunity...

 

[BBB167893]

I'm questioning how an adult could insert his finger w/o tearing the hymen, and do this multiple times. If say the first time this happened when she was 4, then it would more likely rupture and tear.

If it were inserted all the way. (Key words there: all the way.) A lot of abusers know better than to do that right off.

If it is worn, but not torn, and this started when she was 3, I would suspect that an equally small child-size finger "eroded" her hymenel opening.

The best suggestion I can make is for you to ask someone who has experienced this firsthand. And I just happen to know such a person.

 

[voynich]

If it were inserted all the way. (Key words there: all the way.) A lot of abusers know better than to do that right off.



The best suggestion I can make is for you to ask someone who has experienced this firsthand. And I just happen to know such a person.

Burke Ramsey?

It seems to me BR or JB's age-matched friend played 'doctor' and this is a separate and unrelated issue to her murder (whether PR rage or ARDI)

Is it 'sexual abuse' if 5y/o JB played doctor with consent w/another 5 y/o (girl or boy) given both same age?

 

[madeleine]

I find it extremely disturbing that we are even discussing child masturbation and that some seem bent on placing the blame for her vaginal trauma on JB herself. Where does that behavior originate anyway in a child? ABUSE. It need not be abuse by an adult- an older child engaging in sex play is still ABUSE.
6-year old girls do not "discover" sexual pleasure by themselves. If they have been shown what to do- they have been abused. I don't care WHO showed them.

:clap:
Nothing more to add.

 

[BBB167893]

Burke Ramsey?

I meant LinasK, who was molested much in the way I suggest.

It seems to me BR or JB's age-matched friend played 'doctor' and this is a separate and unrelated issue to her murder (whether PR rage or ARDI)

If it happened that way, I'd have to agree. But then, would a kid be that careful?

Is it 'sexual abuse' if 5y/o JB played doctor with consent w/another 5 y/o (girl or boy) given both same age?

No, it isn't. In a situation like that, neither participant has any real power over the other. It's an equal relationship. Abuse requires that one person have the upper hand over another.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm not suggesting that JB is guilty of anything. I'm questioning how an adult could insert his finger w/o tearing the hymen, and do this multiple times. If say the first time this happened when she was 4, then it would more likely rupture and tear.

If it is worn, but not torn, and this started when she was 3, I would suspect that an equally small child-size finger "eroded" her hymenel opening.

So now you're suggesting that a 3-year old JB masturbated?

I'm a disappointed in you....

An adult certainly could do this without breaking the hymen. I know you are male, so I'll cut you some slack in your lack of understanding of female anatomy. But virgins who use tampons when menstruating do not break the hymen. A tampon applicator is the width of a finger, but a bit longer. Not as long as a penis. A penis will break the hymen. A finger/tampon will not. The hymen is higher up in the vaginal canal.