AUS - Khandalyce Kiara Pearce, Wynarka, Bones of a Child Discovered, July'15 - #3

[CSIDreamer]

It's a very odd type of damage. I tend to think that it's not burned. If it had been burned, I don't think that we would see what looks like shredded fibres; eg. the camel piece which look torn. We'd see more burned edge lines, rather than what looks like complete disintegration.

It's not sun damage, nor insect or mouse damage. It doesn't look like simple mould or mildew. It's not bleach damage, and probably not mechanical damage, although it looks as though the quilt has been cut in half.

I wonder if it is chemical damage. It looks to me like sulphuric acid damage, which eats cotton completely, or makes it look ash-like and burned. It doesn't harm polyester in the same way, so the quilt batt, the thread, and one of the fabrics seem untouched.

Some household cleaning products, like drain cleaner, or toilet bowl cleaner, contain sulphuric acid. Could the quilt have been used as a cleaning rag?

http://www.academia.edu/7131115/High-yield_carbonization_of_cellulose_by_sulfuric_acid_impregnation


"The dehydrating effects of sulfuric acid explain its reactions with many common organic materials. It will remove hydrogen and oxygen from molecules that contain these elements in the 2:1 ratio found in the water molecule (H2O) — for example, carbohydrates — which include sugars, starch and cellulose. Sulfuric acid will react with carbohydrates to remove the hydrogen and oxygen, leaving behind carbon. A well known laboratory demonstration illustrates this; concentrated sulfuric acid is added to sucrose table sugar in a beaker and quickly converts it to a mass of charcoal, with a good deal of heat produced. This is the reason that sulfuric acid chars wood and paper — substances which consist mainly of carbohydrates [including cotton]".

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-effects-of-sulfuric-acid.htm

Well, that just gave me a rather unpleasant thought. Would sulfuric acid be used to destroy human remains?

 

[Karo]

I don't think it was burned, the back is intact (I really would like to see the back) and too thick for a cleaning rag etc but I think decomposition is responsible for the front deterioration

It's a very odd type of damage. I tend to think that it's not burned. If it had been burned, I don't think that we would see what looks like shredded fibres; eg. the camel piece which look torn. We'd see more burned edge lines, rather than what looks like complete disintegration.

It's not sun damage, nor insect or mouse damage. It doesn't look like simple mould or mildew. It's not bleach damage, and probably not mechanical damage, although it looks as though the quilt has been cut in half.

I wonder if it is chemical damage. It looks to me like sulphuric acid damage, which eats cotton completely, or makes it look ash-like and burned. It doesn't harm polyester in the same way, so the quilt batt, the thread, and one of the fabrics seem untouched.

Some household cleaning products, like drain cleaner, or toilet bowl cleaner, contain sulphuric acid. Could the quilt have been used as a cleaning rag?

http://www.academia.edu/7131115/High-yield_carbonization_of_cellulose_by_sulfuric_acid_impregnation


"The dehydrating effects of sulfuric acid explain its reactions with many common organic materials. It will remove hydrogen and oxygen from molecules that contain these elements in the 2:1 ratio found in the water molecule (H2O) — for example, carbohydrates — which include sugars, starch and cellulose. Sulfuric acid will react with carbohydrates to remove the hydrogen and oxygen, leaving behind carbon. A well known laboratory demonstration illustrates this; concentrated sulfuric acid is added to sucrose table sugar in a beaker and quickly converts it to a mass of charcoal, with a good deal of heat produced. This is the reason that sulfuric acid chars wood and paper — substances which consist mainly of carbohydrates [including cotton]".

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-effects-of-sulfuric-acid.htm

 

[musicaljoke]

I don't think it was burned, the back is intact (I really would like to see the back) and too thick for a cleaning rag etc but I think decomposition is responsible for the front deterioration

I'm not so sure that decomposition of a body is the only reason for the deterioration of the fabric. If you look at the little black Cotton On dress that the child may have been wearing, it has the same pattern of deterioration ... the top, which might be cotton velvet, is almost completely dissolved, but the bottom, which is probably a synthetic fibre, is hardly touched.

I need to find a picture of the dress ... maybe here: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/29/04/2AEB1C8B00000578-3178023-image-a-1_1438139612437.jpg

 

[Karo]

Not necessarily a body but could be plant matter, do we know if the case was buried at any stage or hidden in an area open to the soil?

I'm not so sure that decomposition of a body is the only reason for the deterioration of the fabric. If you look at the little black Cotton On dress that the child may have been wearing, it has the same pattern of deterioration ... the top, which might be cotton velvet, is almost completely dissolved, but the bottom, which is probably a synthetic fibre, is hardly touched.

I need to find a picture of the dress ... maybe here: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/29/04/2AEB1C8B00000578-3178023-image-a-1_1438139612437.jpg

 

[debirlfan]

Well, that just gave me a rather unpleasant thought. Would sulfuric acid be used to destroy human remains?

That was my first thought at the mention of drain cleaner or the like. Some chemical along those lines might have been dumped on all of the clothes as well - didn't police say other items were too decayed/badly damaged to be identified?

 

[hideoustroll]

I don't think it was burned, the back is intact (I really would like to see the back) and too thick for a cleaning rag etc but I think decomposition is responsible for the front deterioration

I agree and if it was burned the quilt fill would have melted badly. I think both the dress and the quilt have been eaten away during the decomp process. If I am remembering correctly, a decomposing body goes from really acidic to really base at different times during the process. Both states will seriously degrade fabric, some worse than others depending on their composition.

 

[musicaljoke]

Not necessarily a body but could be plant matter, do we know if the case was buried at any stage or hidden in an area open to the soil?

Do you think that it would be more stained if it had been buried, especially if buried with a decomposing body or exposed to dirt. I don't know the answer to that, but guess that it would be quite dirty and the layers might be stuck together so that it wouldn't unfold. For the photo, I expect that it had been hardly touched in any way, other than unfolded.

 

[Makara]

Can I just ask a question please regarding SAPOL fb page, is that not an official South Aus police page? It took me a while to work out what SAPOL was, lol, have been seeing and hearing it all week.

The SAPOL Facebook page isn't in question. The post referred to was not from the police but from someone following them. There is no link, police report or mention in MSM therefore that post is classed as rumour and is off limits here.

 

[Karo]

Yes, I understand that
My question was about the SAPOL page, I don't live in SA and was curious about the name and if was actually official. Thanks for replying.

The SAPOL Facebook page isn't in question. The post referred to was not from the police but from someone following them. There is no link, police report or mention in MSM therefore that post is classed as rumour and is off limits here.

 

[Cagney&Lacey]

I'm a newbie so please be gentle, however I've been following this and the WT thread since their inception.
I'd just like to gauge the opinions of others on my thoughts on suitcase man.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it still appears that the sightings were after the suitcase was originally left in the tree.
My thoughts are that it was disposed of in haste (impending police interest maybe) and thrown from a vehicle at the spot which could be recognizable by the rock pile by a second person who would come along later.
This second person was then advised of the drop and he (suitcase man) then ventured out with his own larger suitcase in which to retrieve little Angel and the smaller suitcase. This would explain why he was seen on several occasions after the drop wandering aimlessly with a suitcase which didn't match the description of the discarded and faded one. Perhaps he was having difficulty locating the drop point.

Suitcase man may have been given the task to retrieve the suitcase and its contents and move to another location.
Alternatively suitcase man was being blackmailed and or outed for his own criminal activities and was simply trying to get to the evidence before anyone else came upon it.

Your thoughts.......

 

[Bundy]

When ever I have had to dispose of an animal carcass in the past, like a foal or a calf, that was too big for me to dig a hole for and too small to bother getting a backhoe in for, I have always just coated them liberally in white lime, I can't remember the name of it but it is the type of lime used in long drop dunnies.
I guess lime would also cause fabrics to deteriorate fairly quickly but I have no idea what that deterioration would look like.

 

[Karo]

Hydrated lime, possibly.

When ever I have had to dispose of an animal carcass in the past, like a foal or a calf, that was too big for me to dig a hole for and too small to bother getting a backhoe in for, I have always just coated them liberally in white lime, I can't remember the name of it but it is the type of lime used in long drop dunnies.
I guess lime would also cause fabrics to deteriorate fairly quickly but I have no idea what that deterioration would look like.

 

[AtaraMalka]

Well, that just gave me a rather unpleasant thought. Would sulfuric acid be used to destroy human remains?

Yes, sulphuric acid has been used by a lot of killers to mame (causes third degree burns), and, heated to high temperatures can dissolve the corpse after death. There were several mafia cases in America last century where bodies were partially or completely liquified in this manner. Sodium hydroxide (Lye, I think it is commonly known as) has also been used.

I will try to find a link...

I'm no chemist but perhaps there could be something to the idea that these or related chemicals were used somewhere along the line in this case, at least to some extent, which might explain the degradation of the bones and why forensics are having such a hard time getting a detailed DNA profile.

Maybe this has been mentioned before, but if the poor child was wrapped in the quilt when she died, perhaps natural decomposition fluids would have sullied the quilt and it is those fluids, rather than burning or anything else, which account for some of the dark stains...

 

[AtaraMalka]

Not a nice topic but here you go...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/12/soluble_dilemma.html

 

[lampshade1]

Plus the single full stop in between the H & F - why none at the end?

I think it is the abbreviated form of a name. E.g. Harrison Ford would be abbreviated to H.F etc.

 

[Freddo Frog]

The police may be interested in that link as well. I just wish all of the items found with Wynarka Angel were displayed for all to see, as opposed to the images of them being published in dribs and drabs. I'm sure they would tell a story if viewed altogether, more so then seeing a few items at a time. It was reported that there were over 50 items of clothing in that suitcase. This sounds to me like whoever murdered this little one has grabbed everything she possessed and stuffed it into the suitcase. Oddly enough, there are no toys, no favourite doll, no much loved teddy bear. Just clothing.

I'm still leaning toward the theory of randomly selected pieces of clothing with no real significance to the little girl.

Until you pointed it out, it never occurred to me there was nothing personal to a little girl in the items listed like teddies and dolls etc. How sad it would be if she never even had a cuddly to cherish My teenage daughter always travels with her favourite rag doll, I couldn't imagine a family holiday without the doll stuffed in to a travel bag!

 

[mamaleena]

Sorry if this had been discussed, just catching up. I'm not understanding why people think there is not a period after the F? I see H.F. And possibly the fabric is bent up, so it appears a little smaller? I'm not sure this is really important to the case, but just wondered.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LadyL]

first of all :welcome::greetings:

my thought is that your scenario is way too complicated

very few crimes are as intricate or planned out as we imagine them to be

suitcase man may be a red herring, in which case we are simply left with someone who drove down the highway, pulled over to dispose of the child in suitcase, and continued on their merry, child-free way

the stacked rocks I feel are just coincidence as several WS'ers have posted plausible reasons for their existence

I'm a newbie so please be gentle, however I've been following this and the WT thread since their inception.
I'd just like to gauge the opinions of others on my thoughts on suitcase man.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it still appears that the sightings were after the suitcase was originally left in the tree.
My thoughts are that it was disposed of in haste (impending police interest maybe) and thrown from a vehicle at the spot which could be recognizable by the rock pile by a second person who would come along later.
This second person was then advised of the drop and he (suitcase man) then ventured out with his own larger suitcase in which to retrieve little Angel and the smaller suitcase. This would explain why he was seen on several occasions after the drop wandering aimlessly with a suitcase which didn't match the description of the discarded and faded one. Perhaps he was having difficulty locating the drop point.

Suitcase man may have been given the task to retrieve the suitcase and its contents and move to another location.
Alternatively suitcase man was being blackmailed and or outed for his own criminal activities and was simply trying to get to the evidence before anyone else came upon it.

Your thoughts.......

 

[Sillybilly]

I agree and if it was burned the quilt fill would have melted badly. I think both the dress and the quilt have been eaten away during the decomp process. If I am remembering correctly, a decomposing body goes from really acidic to really base at different times during the process. Both states will seriously degrade fabric, some worse than others depending on their composition.

Don't know if this has been discussed earlier, but one of the chemicals produced during decomposition is pyruvic acid. Canadian WHMIS data sheet on pyruvic acid makes reference to chemical resistance and the type of gloves to wear when handling "corrosive liquids":

http://datasheets.scbt.com/sds/AGHS/EN/sc-208191.pdf

Perhaps this is what caused the disintegration of the fabric.

 

[hideoustroll]

Don't know if this has been discussed earlier, but one of the chemicals produced during decomposition is pyruvic acid. Canadian WHMIS data sheet on pyruvic acid makes reference to chemical resistance and the type of gloves to wear when handling "corrosive liquids":

http://datasheets.scbt.com/sds/AGHS/EN/sc-208191.pdf

Perhaps this is what caused the disintegration of the fabric.

Yeah, lots of harsh stuff during decomposition. Ammonium is another. Prolonged exposure to a lot of these substances would destroy fabric.