Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, 43, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 - #10

[CJ60]

Just a quick thought...when I first saw the footage of where Allison's body was located there was uncensored footage from a helicopter showing a policeman under the bridge, with other policeman above. The location where Allison was found made me wonder if someone did pull over at the side of the bridge. Could they have tucked her body up under the bridge at the top of the bank? There was mention of branches being tested for DNA that had been snapped beside the bridge so perhaps that is possible? Also it had been weeks since her body had been placed at that location so the grass and other trees would not look obviously disturbed, as in pushed aside or flattened.

I noticed in the nearmap images from Jan 11 2012 that the creek does seem to swell quite a bit at high tide and after a fair amount of rain. Is it possible that if her body was placed under the bridge but originally high up on the bank, the rising water could have caused her body to be moved from that spot? Then as the water recedes her body would end up coming to rest at that spot and it was only after a large amount of rain that the creek water was high enough to finally move her to where she was found? Or could all of the heavy rain running down past the bridge and underneath to the creek moved her body? JMO

The reason her body was found a few days after the rain could have been because anyone going to use the creek would have to possibly wait for the water to recede a bit? Or maybe it was just a coincidence that the canoeist went by at that time after the rain and Allison's body was now visible? This is all IMO

**Added: The reason for my suggestion of the perpetrator putting Allison's body high up underneath the bridge and covered her with branches, etc. they probably did not think the creek or river would go anywhere near as high as it did during the floods (in which the bridge was completely inundated initially) and that she would not be found for a long time, if not ever. At the end of the day though I do think that it is most likely not pre-meditated and it was a rushed last minute decision to place her body under the bridge. I just do not honestly believe that her body could wash that far down the creek without becoming entangled in all of the debris. It does not look like there would be as clear a path for the body to wash down from the scout camp in heavy rain only. All IMO once again

Hi Tarjessi,

Yes, anything is possible.

I just feel if Alison had been left under the bridge, she would have been found sooner. Even if covered with branches - maybe more so as broken branches under there would look very conspicuous. Canoeists use that stretch of the river, and locals that I know were all looking for anything that might be suspicious after Allison was reported missing.

I truly think Allison was left further upstream. There are reports of drag marks, but no particular site mentioned. It may have been Tyamolum; it may have been near Wirrabarra Rd, Little Ugly Creek, which would have been dry at the time Allison was left there. The torrential downpour that weekend would have brought Allison's body down to the bridge. Otherwise, she may never have been found. JMO

 

[coffeechick]

If you hit it at the right angle yes.
I have driven along that road many times at night. (I used to play poker every saturday night at Karana Downs CC until it shut).
It is a very dark road as there are no street lights along that road, the best you see are the other cars headlights whilst you try to stay on your side of the road.

yeah the only way I think you would notice the colour of the car along Mt. Crosby road at night was if they were under the street lights. There are street lights on the corner where the mower place is at Anstead and it is quite well lit there... the next set of street lights is on the road leading down into Karana Downs which is past the Kholo Bridge where she was found - it is really quite a dark road at night.

 

[Detect]

Yes, you do have to provide all identity details when activating a pre paid sim card, including a date of birth, with the telco. At least here one has to with Telstra.

As the police have dismissed the "sim", can't we exclude it from our ponderings . ( I expect someone will reply that police can sometimes get it wrong!)

 

[Maxymoo]

GBC has not been named as an official suspect. I believe some ambiguous wording in a news report (which one I can't remember) may have caused some confusion. Please correct me if I am wrong.

There is nothing wrong with GBC taking the girls to the Brookfield show as far as I'm concerned, even if he did know the grandparents were taking them as well. They're little girls, they like the show, why not go twice? I used to go to the Ekka twice- once with mum and once with my grandmother, no biggie.

I'm not surprised people at the show were being sympathetic and supportive- he was there with the 3 girls! It would be unkind to be anything but.

I know people are critical of him going about his business, going to the show, going to the shops. He hasn't been charged with anything, he still needs groceries, he is still caring for his children- I don't feel the need to judge him for getting things done. If he just stayed inside with the doors locked that would be even stranger.

I have my doubts about him being in the classroom for anything other than routine things like dropping off or talking to the teacher.

Should he be arrested I would imagine social workers or similar would be there to take care of the children. I wouldn't think there would be a delay in arrest for the sake of the children's welfare (IMO the longer the delay the worse for the children.... I have my reasons and I recognise people have different views about this). I don't think there is enough evidence to arrest anybody YET that's all.

Whilst I am impatient I am not disheartened. It may seem like everything's taking a really long time but in the grand scheme of things maybe it's not. These things take time so, so be it.

All just my opinions obviously

The teacher may infact have encouraged him to stay awhile, the children have just lost their mother. It would be perfectly normal for them to have some seperation anxiety. As a professional person she is considering the best interest of her student.
In the meantime I'm sure she didn't take her eyes off him while in her class. IMO

 

[Couldbe]

If I was claiming my wife had gone for a walk and not returned, my first step (after calling local family/friends) would be to drive her regular circuit to see if she was out talking to someone or involved in an accident.

...............if so, that would explain why GBC didn't become involved in looking for Allison any more after that! IMO

 

[wakeskate]

Also just in addition to that...dew is not a given...sometimes when I leave my car out it will be half covered in dew, but cars on the street not at all...or the opposite.

I haven't parked a car on grass for some time, but it really depends how close it is to the grass/trees and the temperatures/humidity etc I think.

 

[willough]

As the police have dismissed the "sim", can't we exclude it from our ponderings . ( I expect someone will reply that police can sometimes get it wrong!)

I dont know how anyone could think that (the police getting it wrong). It was specified that they had found a sim card...They never said it was hers.....I dont think anyone got anything wrong. They just found something that, turned out to be unrelated.....I get what you mean though.

I guess since there isn't any more info coming out, people are talking about things that were interesting and related at some point in time. I find the talk about sims satnavs etc, rather interesting.

 

[Greg]

Allow me to announce that The Dark Shadow is a verified criminologist.

Be sure to thank The Dark Shadow for their help in answering questions about this case. :woohoo:

all we need now is a forensic psychologist, im working on getting one to watch the gbc and olivia videos and give us an experts view on body language and the like.

 

[minni]

An arrest is neither here nor there. The charge and indictment are what counts. Both can be done without arrest. An arrest is to place someone in custody. For more serious offences a person is detained in a watchouse and must be brought before a court as soon as reasonably possible so that they can apply for bail, as is their right. Bail is sometimes given in homicide cases, it depends on the extent to which the accused is considered a flight risk or a danger to others. It also depends on the strength of the prosecution evidence and how ready the prosecution is for court. If the evidence is not that strong then bail is more likely. Bail for accused person's in this matter would be an emotive issue.

So the decision to arrest a person depends on the decision to indict. That decision is made by the DPP, no the QPS, as the DPP manage the prosecution for these more serious offences. The QPS team will need to collate all the relevant evidence then send it to the DPP, where senior staff will determine whether an indictment should be drawn. That decision will be informed by the likelihood of success (given that they have only one chance) and the public interest (meaning not how interested the public are but in the need to bring the matter to trial to protect the community and to have a legal resoltuion). There can also be significant communication between the DPP and defence lawyers. If intention is proving hard to establish then the negotiations about a plea of guilty to manslaughter can be protracted. If there are multiple accused then that becomes even more complex as each lawyer tries to achieve the best outcome for their respective client.

If a bail application is unsuccessful then the charged person will be taken to the remand and reception centre where they may well remain until trial. Where there are multiple accused, some may be granted bail and others not.

As to the welfare of children and timing of an arrest. The QPS cannot really structure people's lives and movements to suit them. Neither is it best practice to telegraph timing execpt is some exceptional circumstances. If the DPP agrees that there is sufficient evidence to indict then an arrest is made when it suits the QPS. Many individual QPS members are profoundly sympathetic and heloful to families but systemically it's about law enforcement and not welfare. That is the job of other agencies who have that mission and training.

thanks Hawkins, can I ask, how often, in your opinion, do our stringent laws work in FAVOUR of australians who have been violated, assaulted, raped or murdered, or a multitude of other violations? It seem to work against us as much as it does for us. Someone very close to me was sexually assaulted and we had a couple of wonderful detectives on the case. However, this woman had been drinking and cctv showed her having a good old time. We were told it was unlikely she had been Rohypnoled and not likely to ever get DNA. some time later, toxicology showed benzo's (they said defense might claim she had just had a valium earlier that day) further on sperm was detected on her clothes and her bed linen, (again, we were told she may have been agreeable to this) later on sperm was matched to the man they had interviewed extensively. The detective who ran the investigation had known this man for years as his son played footy with him. everyone liked this guy. we were informed that NO MATTER WHAT, she could simply not prove that this man had raped her without her consent...nothing ever happened to this guy

 

[Maxymoo]

I dont know how anyone could think that (the police getting it wrong). It was specified that they had found a sim card...They never said it was hers.....I dont think anyone got anything wrong. They just found something that, turned out to be unrelated.....I get what you mean though.

I guess since there isn't any more info coming out, people are talking about things that were interesting and related at some point in time. I find the talk about sims satnavs etc, rather interesting.

If you look back at the photo where you can see the sim on the ground when they found it you can see it is a standard sized sim card. ABC had an i phone I beleive and the sim for those is smaller.:hero::cupcake:

 

[possumheart]

Now it has me thinking. If someone found that non activated sim (under my name and address) and they activated it (with the provider the sim was for) that would then be listed as under my name and address eh...

Use it for a crime and then chuck it away and if there was nothing obviously incriminating upon investigation, noone would have a clue that it was actually used by some other person. As in, it would show that I was at certain locations but not the person who used it. It's all too far fetched... Still... geez... ?

This is why I have a shredder that also does CDs and credit cards.

 

[Fuskier]

An arrest is neither here nor there. The charge and indictment are what counts. Both can be done without arrest. An arrest is to place someone in custody. For more serious offences a person is detained in a watchouse and must be brought before a court as soon as reasonably possible so that they can apply for bail, as is their right. Bail is sometimes given in homicide cases, it depends on the extent to which the accused is considered a flight risk or a danger to others. It also depends on the strength of the prosecution evidence and how ready the prosecution is for court. If the evidence is not that strong then bail is more likely. Bail for accused person's in this matter would be an emotive issue.

So the decision to arrest a person depends on the decision to indict. That decision is made by the DPP, no the QPS, as the DPP manage the prosecution for these more serious offences. The QPS team will need to collate all the relevant evidence then send it to the DPP, where senior staff will determine whether an indictment should be drawn. That decision will be informed by the likelihood of success (given that they have only one chance) and the public interest (meaning not how interested the public are but in the need to bring the matter to trial to protect the community and to have a legal resoltuion). There can also be significant communication between the DPP and defence lawyers. If intention is proving hard to establish then the negotiations about a plea of guilty to manslaughter can be protracted. If there are multiple accused then that becomes even more complex as each lawyer tries to achieve the best outcome for their respective client.

If a bail application is unsuccessful then the charged person will be taken to the remand and reception centre where they may well remain until trial. Where there are multiple accused, some may be granted bail and others not.

As to the welfare of children and timing of an arrest. The QPS cannot really structure people's lives and movements to suit them. Neither is it best practice to telegraph timing execpt is some exceptional circumstances. If the DPP agrees that there is sufficient evidence to indict then an arrest is made when it suits the QPS. Many individual QPS members are profoundly sympathetic and heloful to families but systemically it's about law enforcement and not welfare. That is the job of other agencies who have that mission and training.

Thank you HAWKINS for making clearer the 'complex' legal processes involved.
IMO Parliament needs to look into changing the Law based on this specific case example.
Suspects can be free to engage a Solicitor(Lawyer) but need to be prevented from securing the services of a Legal Eagle Barrister until after they are charged. The Police investigative process should not be restricted due to the presence of a Barrister standing between them and the Suspect. It uses millions of taxpayers dollars unnecessarily. MOO.

 

[Maxymoo]

thanks Hawkins, can I ask, how often, in your opinion, do our stringent laws work in FAVOUR of australians who have been violated, assaulted, raped or murdered, or a multitude of other violations? It seem to work against us as much as it does for us. Someone very close to me was sexually assaulted and we had a couple of wonderful detectives on the case. However, this woman had been drinking and cctv showed her having a good old time. We were told it was unlikely she had been Rohypnoled and not likely to ever get DNA. some time later, toxicology showed benzo's (they said defense might claim she had just had a valium earlier that day) further on sperm was detected on her clothes and her bed linen, (again, we were told she may have been agreeable to this) later on sperm was matched to the man they had interviewed extensively. The detective who ran the investigation had known this man for years as his son played footy with him. everyone liked this guy. we were informed that NO MATTER WHAT, she could simply not prove that this man had raped her without her consent...nothing ever happened to this guy

I'm so sorry your friend had to go through such an experience. I'm sure Hawkins will explain the complexities of a sucessful rape prosecution.

 

[Liadan]

all we need now is a forensic psychologist, im working on getting one to watch the gbc and olivia videos and give us an experts view on body language and the like.

Greg - I think that will be great and it will be great to hear an expert opinion, I will be interested in particular to hear what they say about Olivia (esp after the Mark Lundy assessment of body language.) And for GBC even if he was separated from Allison I can't fathom how someone would not be concerned about finding the mother of his kids. Honestly as someone said here - I would do more looking for my lost dog than he has done looking for his supposedly 'precious, loving, and notably missing wife'.

 

[minni]

Also just in addition to that...dew is not a given...sometimes when I leave my car out it will be half covered in dew, but cars on the street not at all...or the opposite.

and in retrospect, we cant verify it by looking at photos because the carws would not have been photographed until a little later on (not at 7.30 house call)

 

[Greg]

We drive a Prado and my husband got home at 3.30 and the bonnet is still a teeny bit warm (that's an hour and a half). It is really cold out this way at night though - so that might be a factor too.

He had been driving for around an hour.

:waitasec: what colour is it???

 

[Cccclllaareb]

If you look back at the photo where you can see the sim on the ground when they found it you can see it is a standard sized sim card. ABC had an i phone I beleive and the sim for those is smaller.:hero::cupcake:

The old iPhones take an ordinary sized sim

 

[Rational]

Good pickup. I did miss that.
It looks weird though. There is no dirt in the wheel wells or on the sides of the car but plenty on the back windscreen.
If I was washing a car, the windscreens would definitely get washed first.

It is probably just the way the photo was taken (with a flash) which makes the white look like its nice and clean.

Maybe the back window had been wound down ( as someone in a previous thread mentioned) to conceal the Century21 signage. Car was washed and only later the window was wound up. Although why anyone would wash their car with a window down? But than again panick can make you forget lots of things IMO

 

[bellgirl]

I agree. It is really dark out there so much so you really have to pay attention to your driving. That road out to Mt Crosby always makes me nervous!

The hills just after Kholo Creek scare the hell out of me! They're like a roller coaster ride!

 

[Blue Bottle]

This is why I have a shredder that also does CDs and credit cards.

From reading this thread(s) I know for sure I'll be more careful in future when chucking away stuff which has my name and address attached to it.

wow...