Australia - 'Black is ugly', 3-year-old at Disney event told

[Brightbird]

I am just shocked. I cannot believe a child in this day and age, nor their parents, would think or verbalize such a thought.

I hate to say this, but I am skeptical. Only because the wording supposedly used by children does not sound "childlike", but more like the hate speech of an adult.

I dunno, "you're black and black is ugly" sounds like the wording of a child to me, probably just paraphrasing what's heard at home anyway.

 

[Cubby]

I would have never guessed the mother or daughter as being black. I guess that just goes to show skin color isn't necessarily indicative of race.

 

[pukasonqo2]

Okay. Thank you for the Oz perspective. I know the US gets a low mark on race relations, but this sort of thing seemed rather shocking even for us.

I was reading this story from US perspective, and I am so very sorry you have experienced such hate. You have removed my skepticism. I hope I did not offend by questioning.

not at all!
unfortunately, racism is present everywhere, from the most primitive societies to sophisticated ones
what has changed is that people are more aware of it and more willing to speak against it
i think racism has a mix of fear and ignorance which is a very ugly and dangerous combination

 

[rob]

They identify as black????

 

[zwiebel]

They identify as black????

I don't live in Australia but have family there, and from what I have heard and read, Native Aboriginal skin tone and other characteristics such as curly hair can disappear very quickly for some reason, with just a little interbreeding with non-Native Aboriginals. So the result is, there seems to be a large number of blondish or red-haired, freckle-faced people, or people of Hispanic/Indian appearance, who identify as Native Aboriginal and black.

I think. If I'm totally wrong our Australian posters will set me straight.

ETA: German research discovered a wave of settlers from India intermingling with Native Aboriginals 4000 years ago apparently, that came as a surprise. It's thought they may have introduced the dingo. Never knew that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21016700

 

[pukasonqo2]

not an expert but the aboriginal gene is a recessive one, you could have an aboriginal woman marrying a white guy and some of her children will look more caucasian than aboriginal.
i worked with an aboriginal man, he had deep blue eyes but "looked" aboriginal, his sister was blond and blue eyed. his mother was a dark aboriginal woman and the father was scottish, my colleague explained the recessive gene theory to mr
and we started chatting about it because, before he could hear my accent, he thought i was aboriginal!

 

[Brightbird]

I never knew that about Aboriginal skin colour being recessive. I have Aboriginal ancestry and it's always struck me how, looking at old photos, it took only two generations and the features were hardly noticeable. My limited understanding is that it is irrelevant whether someone identifies as black or not; It's whether they identify as Aboriginal (or Indigenous, or First Australians, or their language group etc) or not. The term "blackfella" is more synonymous with being Aboriginal than actual skin tone. Perhaps in part because there was such an effort to "breed out the black", skin colour has little to do with Aboriginal identity. Terms like half-caste, and pretty much anything referring to racial 'purity' are now considered offensive. Anyway, we don't really use the term "black" to refer to Aboriginal people (at least not where I live) but when it is used it doesn't strictly mean skin colour.

 

[EllieBee]

I never knew that about Aboriginal skin colour being recessive. I have Aboriginal ancestry and it's always struck me how, looking at old photos, it took only two generations and the features were hardly noticeable. My limited understanding is that it is irrelevant whether someone identifies as black or not; It's whether they identify as Aboriginal (or Indigenous, or First Australians, or their language group etc) or not. The term "blackfella" is more synonymous with being Aboriginal than actual skin tone. Perhaps in part because there was such an effort to "breed out the black", skin colour has little to do with Aboriginal identity. Terms like half-caste, and pretty much anything referring to racial 'purity' are now considered offensive. Anyway, we don't really use the term "black" to refer to Aboriginal people (at least not where I live) but when it is used it doesn't strictly mean skin colour.

Hi, Brightbird-

I know I could Google, but frankly I am lazy and I would rather "hear" the answer from an Australian, but did Australia ever have miscegenation laws or laws that "determine" who is "black" by the percentage of non-white ancestry?

I think a big part of the racial problems in the US stem from laws in the 1920's which ruled that people who were previously considered "white" (and worthy of all of the privilege *gag*) became "black" by virture of having a single drop (like anyone could actually prove it back then) of "black" blood.

Prior to the one-drop and miscegenation laws here, there existed a culture of "free people of color" who enjoyed many but not all of the privileges of whites. Granted, those persons who were newly-freed slaves, or by looks alone were assumed to be more than 1/8th black were not afforded the same freedoms.

However, not as much attention was paid to "who was what", and so many Creole and Mestizo people either "passed" or did not find it necessary to.

In summary, much of the racism and division we see in the US today is not due solely to 300 years of oppression (although it doesn't help) but to the white supremacists of the early 20th century, who decided we needed to root out the "blacks" in order to decide one's rights.

So back to my question (sorry for the novel):

Has Australia gone through similar type of racial typing, assigning, legalizing, etc?

 

[EllieBee]

I never knew that about Aboriginal skin colour being recessive. I have Aboriginal ancestry and it's always struck me how, looking at old photos, it took only two generations and the features were hardly noticeable. My limited understanding is that it is irrelevant whether someone identifies as black or not; It's whether they identify as Aboriginal (or Indigenous, or First Australians, or their language group etc) or not. The term "blackfella" is more synonymous with being Aboriginal than actual skin tone. Perhaps in part because there was such an effort to "breed out the black", skin colour has little to do with Aboriginal identity. Terms like half-caste, and pretty much anything referring to racial 'purity' are now considered offensive. Anyway, we don't really use the term "black" to refer to Aboriginal people (at least not where I live) but when it is used it doesn't strictly mean skin colour.

Quoting you again, but I have a rather large group of friends from the Dominican Republic and I was rather surprised to discover that "claro" skin is more valued than dark or "oscuro" skin, as are features which are more Caucasian or Asian than African.

I once spent an entire (and I mean ENTIRE) afternoon with a friend in a salon in DR, where she had her hair straightened, ironed, stretched, whatever and the stuff they used was STINKY, and it took all day! And when we left she was still not happy that her hair wasn't limp and lank like mine. I wasn't sure what to say (I was really young then) but it made me very aware of how her culture made her feel that the "whiter" she could look, the better.

And as a pasty white outsider (who was so graciously welcomed in the months I lived there), I was very aware of that skin-color hierachy and I felt conspicuous and just awful. (Again, not because of the people, who were warm and accepting: but because I had friends who thought they needed to be lighter to be better.

When you noted your surprise at it only taking a couple of generations to lose all physical Aboriginal appearance, it reminded me of those women in DR who wanted to marry men lighter than them so their babies would be "claro". I will never get why it matters, but that is because I am "white". I can try to understand, but can't.

 

[EllieBee]

not an expert but the aboriginal gene is a recessive one, you could have an aboriginal woman marrying a white guy and some of her children will look more caucasian than aboriginal.
i worked with an aboriginal man, he had deep blue eyes but "looked" aboriginal, his sister was blond and blue eyed. his mother was a dark aboriginal woman and the father was scottish, my colleague explained the recessive gene theory to mr
and we started chatting about it because, before he could hear my accent, he thought i was aboriginal!

Ha ha, my daughter is, AFAIK, "white". My ancestry is anglo/British isles and her dad is of Italian/German ancestry.

Kiddo turns out with striking blue eyes, light brown uber-thick ropy, curly hair, and skin that gets brown after 15 mins in the sun. She also has my snub nose and her dad's full lips.

People often assume she is biracial. In fact, I was at a loss about how to care for her hair until a Dominican friend of mine helped me out with products and basic hair-care tips for tight curly hair.

I just think she is beautiful. And stories like ours are what I poo-pooh the whole "race" thing. We are all varying proportions of a blend. But all human.

 

[pukasonqo2]

Quoting you again, but I have a rather large group of friends from the Dominican Republic and I was rather surprised to discover that "claro" skin is more valued than dark or "oscuro" skin, as are features which are more Caucasian or Asian than African.

I once spent an entire (and I mean ENTIRE) afternoon with a friend in a salon in DR, where she had her hair straightened, ironed, stretched, whatever and the stuff they used was STINKY, and it took all day! And when we left she was still not happy that her hair wasn't limp and lank like mine. I wasn't sure what to say (I was really young then) but it made me very aware of how her culture made her feel that the "whiter" she could look, the better.

And as a pasty white outsider (who was so graciously welcomed in the months I lived there), I was very aware of that skin-color hierachy and I felt conspicuous and just awful. (Again, not because of the people, who were warm and accepting: but because I had friends who thought they needed to be lighter to be better.

When you noted your surprise at it only taking a couple of generations to lose all physical Aboriginal appearance, it reminded me of those women in DR who wanted to marry men lighter than them so their babies would be "claro". I will never get why it matters, but that is because I am "white". I can try to understand, but can't.

is the same all over latin america, white, light skin is consider something to aspire to. in the pecking order, the closer you are to the indigenous population of your country, the lower you are considered in that society
as i said before, i am mixed race; a blend of european, african and indigenous southamerican. we used to have these ID cards for voting purposes and, among eye and hair colour it had your race, my brother's and sister's said white, mine said mestiza (mixed).
regarding australian aborigines, many were (like in canada) forcibly removed from their families and send to institutions, i have not a deep knowledge about it but i recommend the film "rabbit proof fence" and the report on the stolen generation. my understanding is that it was expected that those children will grow up away from their culture and assimilate thus aboriginal culture would eventually disappear as the elders died and there was nobody to take any leadership roles or to remember their traditions

 

[gitana1]

Why are people so cynical that a mother would make this up about her little girl? Is the implication is that "these people" have no morals when it comes to making a buck? I think it's far more believable that Samara encountered an ignorant racist women on her trip to Melbourne. I doubt it will be the last time it happens to her either.

Ouch! Who said anything about "these people"? What people? If you mean those of us with questions are racists who assume minorities lie, well I assumed the mother is totally Caucasian.
Further, typically, I assume any allegation about racist behavior is true because racism is an ugly reality around the world.
And I actually have no concrete reason to believe this story is false. But I do have some questions for various reasons.
First, there have been various fake stories about these things recently. The Victoria Wilcher hoax out of Mississippi. The fake hate crime claims of Kerri Dunn in CA and Charlie Roger in Nebraska. And recently, the false hate crime allegations of Rachel Dolezal.
So I'm a bit gun shy now.
Second, even racists tend to leave children alone usually and pick on adults when it comes to public vernal or physical attacks.
Third, I have read various accounts lately of Australians bravely standing up and fighting back against racists, protecting minorities, in ways rarely seen here in the states.
Fourth, it is hard to believe no adult heard such abuse and stayed quiet in the face of a small child being tormented.
But I'm certainly not saying the story is fake. Just that I have some slight concerns about it.

 

[Eloise]

There is plenty of racism in Australia - both the kind in the OP (individuals being viciously racist on a personal level - and yep, I've heard kids say horrible stuff exactly like this) and institutionalised racism as well.
Sure there is push back against it, but it's a fight. Australia is no utopia when it comes to race, far from it.

I believe this story in a heartbeat. Could it be fake? Sure, like basically everything online, but it rings true in my experience.

 

[gitana1]

There is plenty of racism in Australia - both the kind in the OP (individuals being viciously racist on a personal level - and yep, I've heard kids say horrible stuff exactly like this) and institutionalised racism as well.
Sure there is push back against it, but it's a fight. Australia is no utopia when it comes to race, far from it.

I believe this story in a heartbeat. Could it be fake? Sure, like basically everything online, but it rings true in my experience.

Thats very sad. But let me make an important distinction here: Yes. Kids say evil things to other kids sometimes. But that is not what I'm talking about and I purposefully did not mention what the child said. Forget that for a moment since that is not the point and has zero to do with my questions. (I can easily see a kid who doesn't know better and hasn't been raised right, saying something like that in public. Not the point).

Instead, consider that in this case, an ADULT joined in and humiliated and bullied a small child. No fear of getting smacked by the child's mom, who does not look like a shrinking violet? And not one word by any other adult in defense of the baby? Also, what did the mother say to this bullying, racist adult who verbally attacked her small child? And what grown adult in Australia thinks it is okay to harass a tiny little girl? Are you telling me that such a thing is common there? Adults going up to Aborginial toddlers and attacking them for their ethnic heritage? Hmmm.

 

[Brightbird]

Hi, Brightbird-

I know I could Google, but frankly I am lazy and I would rather "hear" the answer from an Australian, but did Australia ever have miscegenation laws or laws that "determine" who is "black" by the percentage of non-white ancestry?

I think a big part of the racial problems in the US stem from laws in the 1920's which ruled that people who were previously considered "white" (and worthy of all of the privilege *gag*) became "black" by virture of having a single drop (like anyone could actually prove it back then) of "black" blood.

Prior to the one-drop and miscegenation laws here, there existed a culture of "free people of color" who enjoyed many but not all of the privileges of whites. Granted, those persons who were newly-freed slaves, or by looks alone were assumed to be more than 1/8th black were not afforded the same freedoms.

However, not as much attention was paid to "who was what", and so many Creole and Mestizo people either "passed" or did not find it necessary to.

In summary, much of the racism and division we see in the US today is not due solely to 300 years of oppression (although it doesn't help) but to the white supremacists of the early 20th century, who decided we needed to root out the "blacks" in order to decide one's rights.

So back to my question (sorry for the novel):

Has Australia gone through similar type of racial typing, assigning, legalizing, etc?

Yes, there were different laws for Aboriginals and white people. A lot of Aboriginals, especially in the eastern and southern parts of Australia, were forced off their land and onto reserves where they were used as cheap or free labor and didn't have the same rights of white workers. Children with any white heritage were removed and placed mostly in institutions or adopted, and this went on until the early 70s. Aboriginals didn't get full voting rights until the 60s. I think there were ideas about percentages of blood but I'm not sure how it was enforced. The idea was to assimilate any people with mixed race into white society, and the rest would just die out or something. So my understanding is that people with mixed descent, certainly if one grandparent was Aboriginal, were considered white legally (if they lived in white ways). There were Aboriginal Protection Acts which determined who was Aboriginal and made rules around where they could live, work, who they could marry etc. Australia wasn't a federation until 1901, so there were different laws in the colonies and then in the states in territories.

 

[Brightbird]

Ouch! Who said anything about "these people"? What people? If you mean those of us with questions are racists who assume minorities lie, well I assumed the mother is totally Caucasian.
Further, typically, I assume any allegation about racist behavior is true because racism is an ugly reality around the world.
And I actually have no concrete reason to believe this story is false. But I do have some questions for various reasons.
First, there have been various fake stories about these things recently. The Victoria Wilcher hoax out of Mississippi. The fake hate crime claims of Kerri Dunn in CA and Charlie Roger in Nebraska. And recently, the false hate crime allegations of Rachel Dolezal.
So I'm a bit gun shy now.
Second, even racists tend to leave children alone usually and pick on adults when it comes to public vernal or physical attacks.
Third, I have read various accounts lately of Australians bravely standing up and fighting back against racists, protecting minorities, in ways rarely seen here in the states.
Fourth, it is hard to believe no adult heard such abuse and stayed quiet in the face of a small child being tormented.
But I'm certainly not saying the story is fake. Just that I have some slight concerns about it.

I find nothing unusual or sensational about this story, so it surprises and saddens me that some people's first reaction is to question the mother's motives. And yes, that does make me wonder whether there is some racism, or classism, or some other ism behind the speculation. It's not like the mum was trying to sue Disney. I'm not familiar with any stories of fake racism in Australia. I Googled it and found one MSM opinion piece by a well-known right wing commentator here, and a bunch of American sites about fake hate crimes. Maybe it's more widely publicised in America, and that alters our perspectives, I dunno. On your third point, I agree, there are more and more stories of people standing up to racists, but there are also stories where 99% did nothing.

 

[gitana1]

I find nothing unusual or sensational about this story, so it surprises and saddens me that some people's first reaction is to question the mother's motives. And yes, that does make me wonder whether there is some racism, or classism, or some other ism behind the speculation. It's not like the mum was trying to sue Disney. I'm not familiar with any stories of fake racism in Australia. I Googled it and found one MSM opinion piece by a well-known right wing commentator here, and a bunch of American sites about fake hate crimes. Maybe it's more widely publicised in America, and that alters our perspectives, I dunno. On your third point, I agree, there are more and more stories of people standing up to racists, but there are also stories where 99% did nothing.

That was not my first reaction as my post history clearly showed. It also wasn't my first reaction to various other stories including this one: http://baltimore.suntimes.com/bal-news/7/101/146454/relentlessly-gay-yard-big-hoax-baltimore - that all turned out to be hoaxes.

It offends me to be accused of racism or classism. I am not totally white myself and my own family have been victims of racism, including me as a little girl when I was consistently called an ugly or dirty "beaner". In fact, I grew up feeling very "dirty" as a result of that.

Poverty issues and race are two issues I am or have been pretty politically active in. I'm actually published - two separate journal articles - on race/prejudice issues involving my people - one about Gypsy reparations for the Holocaust (I'm half Romani) and the other about the myth of Gypsy criminality in the United States.

Your assumption was quite offensive. Please keep such accusations to yourself from now on.

I am still waiting for a contemporary account or two or three or four of fully grown adults attacking toddlers on separate occasions due to their race in Australia. Because if such accounts do not exist then this one is indeed unusual or sensational.

Further, my mother lived there for 7 years after WWII, near Perth. It was far more racist back then (1950's) and even she says that it would be extremely surprising for an adult to assault a child in that way today, especially in full view of others.

So yeah, I find this horrific and unusual. Highly. And I have questions.

 

[Brightbird]

Gitana, where did I accuse you of any prejudice? My first post wasn't even a reaction to you - it was in response to posts 6 & 9. I'm a little perplexed by your defensiveness. I stand by my first comment, as I was offended by the suggestions the mother is a scammer.

Sure, racially abusing a toddler is horrid and cruel. But there are several Australians here saying this story rings true from what we know about racism in our country. I don't see how similar reported examples make it more believable. You don't think some racists cross the line into verbally abusing a child? Pretty sure worse things have happened in the name of racism. Why didn't no one else stand up? Maybe the shopping centre was noisy, maybe other parents were too busy to notice, maybe other people were just as stunned. Maybe the woman made the remark because she knew no one would hear or do anything. Australia is a mix of kind tolerant people and deeply entrenched racism, like anywhere.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

it happens a lot in oz. i am a mixed race southamerican living in inner city sydney and i have been called an "abo" or "coon" which are very racists terms used to describe australian aborigines. at first i couldn't work it out until it was explained to me.
my partner (latvian) was called a white wog at school. i also have greek, lebanese and italian friends who had similar experiences
so yup, as much as aussies would like to think they are tolerant racism and harassment do happen
funnily enough, i never get racial abuse for being latina but i certainly get it for looking aboriginal

So true. Aussies will rarely speak up in defense either (unless tanked up) , due to not wanting to cause a scene, a bit like the English, embarrassment issues as John Cleese would say. :blushing:

 

[Brightbird]

So true. Aussies will rarely speak up in defense either (unless tanked up) , due to not wanting to cause a scene, a bit like the English, embarrassment issues as John Cleese would say. :blushing:

Absolutely. Unless someone is ranting and raving or getting aggressive, a lot of Australians would find it awkward to confront someone like that. And Taylors Lakes is pretty much the epitome of suburban Australia - even the comedy Upper Middle Bogan was filmed there, lol. Although you'd like to think that if anyone witnessed it, they'd at least ask the mum if she's ok.