Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[Akai]

Stranger DNA found linking same perp to CG & KK was matched in 2008:

"It was not until 2008 that a small team of officers within the Special Crime Squad ... had a Eureka moment when a laboratory confirmed that the 'stranger' DNA recovered from the body of Ciara Glennon in 1997 matched the offender DNA" from KK.

A number of years later and "in a continuing operation to retest old evidence, State Crime Operations officers ran DNA tests on the kimono. Police claim the DNA samples came back as a match to samples already on the police database - samples that had been recovered from the body of the third Claremont victim, Ciara Glennon" and KK attack.

kimono clue post news

Most of you know this info - however just posting for the new posters out there who are unaware of DNA circumstances. Obviously there could be other evidence we are unaware of also.

Not directed at you, Spinnaker, but the quote in this post reminded me of something.

I've seen conflicting reports as to whether the DNA found on CG was known about back when her body was found and just couldn't be tested until many years later, or if it (or the item it was on) was only found many years later. Anyone know for sure which it is?


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[Canning Vale]

An example of the western side of Huntingdale - mid 1970s. Top RHS looks like the telephone exchange. The E family lived 5 houses from the phone exchange. It doesn't look as though Gay St was built then.

http://innopac.slwa.wa.gov.au/record=b2457158

 

[MrsNathanDrake]

I think the kimono served one or another (or both) purposes

1) to cover the victims face. By the time of the karakatta rape, he had organised something (pillowcase?) to cover the victims head, maybe the kimono was the early formation of that part of the plan.

2) Physical prop/trophy for masturbation fantasies. Perhaps stolen from the home of someone he had peeped and wanted to fantasize about, or perhaps it was just a prop that fit a fantasy he had and nothing to do with the person he took it from. Despite the capabilities of the human imagination, and despite bazillions of smutty clips available on the internet, humans still like to have something physical to help the fantasy feel real- that's why panty vending machines, sex dolls and 'girlfriend experience' prostitutes are big business

 

[no name]

Not directed at you, Spinnaker, but the quote in this post reminded me of something.

I've seen conflicting reports as to whether the DNA found on CG was known about back when her body was found and just couldn't be tested until many years later, or if it (or the item it was on) was only found many years later. Anyone know for sure which it is?

The "breakthrough" clue was supposedly an item "overlooked" as being a source of potential DNA retrieval. This was identified in the Schramm review and sent to Britain for testing in 2004. It was matched to KK in 2008.

 

[Chicago Bulls]

The kimono as you call it may have been a layer of disguise.

Often criminals wear layers of clothing then strip down as part of exit strategy wearing a completely different layer of clothes leaving the perp looking like a different person for police to find in a hurry.

The kimono could have been part of that strategy amongst other things.
This may explain why the kimono was disregarded.

The kimono has another attribute that would make it hard for police hard to find him that I cant make mention of.
If its true, he may have police or military training.

 

[Chicago Bulls]

Essentially any womens clothing stolen off a clothesline he will of been masterbating into.
He may have known the people he stole the clothing off the washing line for different reasons.
Do any of you know if he knew the people he stole the under garments off the line as you guys call them.

 

[Annalise]

I wonder if he ever stole underwear or clothing belonging to his mother or sister off the clothes line. MOO

 

[Akai]

The "breakthrough" clue was supposedly an item "overlooked" as being a source of potential DNA retrieval. This was identified in the Schramm review and sent to Britain for testing in 2004. It was matched to KK in 2008.

That's what I thought. But some articles, such as the one quoted by Spinnaker, imply the DNA was collected originally. Guess just bad reporting/use of language.


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[Akai]

Essentially any womens clothing stolen off a clothesline he will of been masterbating into.
He may have known the people he stole the clothing off the washing line for different reasons.
Do any of you know if he knew the people he stole the under garments off the line as you guys call them.

No, we don't know at this stage.

The Kimono in the HD attack has been linked to this accused, but no certainty on where it came from in the first place.

There have also been reports that in the same area at the same time clothes went missing from clotheslines, but these haven't been linked to the accused, and there has been no mention of whether the people who had thefts knew the accused.


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[Akai]

I think the kimono served one or another (or both) purposes

1) to cover the victims face. By the time of the karakatta rape, he had organised something (pillowcase?) to cover the victims head, maybe the kimono was the early formation of that part of the plan.

2) Physical prop/trophy for masturbation fantasies. Perhaps stolen from the home of someone he had peeped and wanted to fantasize about, or perhaps it was just a prop that fit a fantasy he had and nothing to do with the person he took it from. Despite the capabilities of the human imagination, and despite bazillions of smutty clips available on the internet, humans still like to have something physical to help the fantasy feel real- that's why panty vending machines, sex dolls and 'girlfriend experience' prostitutes are big business

I think it is more likely to be the second point.

With regards to that, though, I don't think the things you mentioned are all "props" to help fantasies seem real. I think seeking out something real, such as sex workers, is often because people are lacking intimacy in their lives and need that. In fact, I would argue that this is what a girlfriend experience is about. Someone wanting to act out a fantasy is more likely to go for a star experience, or ask for a specific fantasy (e.g. role play). I think even sex dolls are often used as intimacy/companion replacements.

Also, sex workers are human beings working and performing a service like any other, as distinct from knickers from a vending machine.


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[Spinnaker]

That's what I thought. But some articles, such as the one quoted by Spinnaker, imply the DNA was collected originally. Guess just bad reporting/use of language.


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A critical item from CG's body was overlooked when CG was found and not tested until after Schramm review 2004. Seems strange though, you would think that DNA on the body would be collected immediately as a procedural and integral part of the coronial investigation. Was it something else they found which was overlooked?

 

[lampformypath]

I wonder if he ever stole underwear or clothing belonging to his mother or sister off the clothes line. MOO

Ah now, very good point Annalise! I think this is how he started in the very beginning and very young, with the feeling his mother's underwear/clothing off the washing line! (Around 6-8yrs maybe?) Perhaps it started with a silky feel slip or negligee? Then stealing an item or two at perhaps 12yrs or so? As I mentioned before in a previous post, these silky fabrics have a calming/pleasurable sensation which soothes some people with Autism, and I believe they are also used in hospitals - Dementia/Mental Health wards, with people who have experienced trauma. Could the alleged CSK have experienced a traumatic event in his life at a very early age and accidentally (initially) whilst being comforted at one time, rubbed his face against a silk nightie mother was wearing and this felt so "lovely", soft and nurturing, which he was lacking from his relationship with his mother? He sought this out again (and again) by touching Mum's things on the washing line (intimate naughty things to a child) and was seen doing it, teased and started having the item associated with shame and pleasure, something taboo to be hidden, but something so "nice". He began to try to take them and hide them to touch them again when alone and self-pleasuring? Remember, this would have already been a troubled and withdrawn boy with very low self worth and feelings of being ineffectual. All just supposition here of course.

Thought this Q & A with a PHD was worth a read:
QUOTE: BBM

"This behavior of his is very likely to be an instance of Transvestic Fetisism, one of a group of sexual diagnoses known as the paraphilias, which includes exhibitionism (arousal attached to shocking people with public displays), regular fetishism (say, a fetish for leather – difficulty achieving arousal without the fetish item present), frotteurism (arousal is tied to rubbing against people in public), pedophilia (arousal is tied to sexually immature partners), sexual masochism (arousal tied to being punished), sexual sadism (arousal tied to punishing), and voyeurism (arousal tied to spying on other’s sexual activities in peeping tom fashion). If it isn’t clear already, the basic idea is that when you have a fetish, your ability to become sexually aroused becomes linked to a particular thing and it becomes difficult to get aroused properly without that thing being present."​

https://www.mentalhelp.net/advice/transvestic-fetishism/



I did find this which I thought was quite fascinating too:

QUOTE: BBM
"

Another piece of the puzzle, though, is how each connection forms in the first place — why denim in particular is disgusting, or why silk is joyful. On the one hand, Ramachandran says, it’s possible that some of these responses are born out of memory, a particularly traumatic or positive experience with a certain texture creating a lasting unconscious reaction.​

"

https://www.thecut.com/2016/05/the-people-who-store-their-emotions-in-their-fingertips.html

 

[no name]

That's what I thought. But some articles, such as the one quoted by Spinnaker, imply the DNA was collected originally. Guess just bad reporting/use of language.

Technically, of course it was all collected originally. Im not sure how long the forensics had access to the body and the scene but you'd have to assume it was only a brief period within which to collect evidence.
I think it speaks not only to the lack of capabilities of DNA extraction methods at that time, particularly in Western Australia, but also to the relative inexperience of the police in dealing with such evidence. My take is that they didn't realise what they had was capable of providing anything useful and when they were made aware of that capability, it was sent to be tested.
Its quite a contrast to see the forensic police today cover head to toe in overalls, booties, head coverings and masks compared with the images of them processing JRs site wearing nothing more than gloves. Other shots of line searches & police milling around CGs site show the police wearing nothing in the way of protection from contamination of any evidence whatsoever.

 

[Frequant Flyer]

This debacle goes from bad to worse , it made more sense when it was shut down

 

[Annalise]

Ah now, very good point Annalise! I think this is how he started in the very beginning and very young, with the feeling his mother's underwear/clothing off the washing line! (Around 6-8yrs maybe?) Perhaps it started with a silky feel slip or negligee? Then stealing an item or two at perhaps 12yrs or so? As I mentioned before in a previous post, these silky fabrics have a calming/pleasurable sensation which soothes some people with Autism, and I believe they are also used in hospitals - Dementia/Mental Health wards, with people who have experienced trauma. Could the alleged CSK have experienced a traumatic event in his life at a very early age and accidentally (initially) whilst being comforted at one time, rubbed his face against a silk nightie mother was wearing and this felt so "lovely", soft and nurturing, which he was lacking from his relationship with his mother? He sought this out again (and again) by touching Mum's things on the washing line (intimate naughty things to a child) and was seen doing it, teased and started having the item associated with shame and pleasure, something taboo to be hidden, but something so "nice". He began to try to take them and hide them to touch them again when alone and self-pleasuring? Remember, this would have already been a troubled and withdrawn boy with very low self worth and feelings of being ineffectual. All just supposition here of course.

Thought this Q & A with a PHD was worth a read:
QUOTE: BBM

"This behavior of his is very likely to be an instance of Transvestic Fetisism, one of a group of sexual diagnoses known as the paraphilias, which includes exhibitionism (arousal attached to shocking people with public displays), regular fetishism (say, a fetish for leather – difficulty achieving arousal without the fetish item present), frotteurism (arousal is tied to rubbing against people in public), pedophilia (arousal is tied to sexually immature partners), sexual masochism (arousal tied to being punished), sexual sadism (arousal tied to punishing), and voyeurism (arousal tied to spying on other’s sexual activities in peeping tom fashion). If it isn’t clear already, the basic idea is that when you have a fetish, your ability to become sexually aroused becomes linked to a particular thing and it becomes difficult to get aroused properly without that thing being present."​

https://www.mentalhelp.net/advice/transvestic-fetishism/



I did find this which I thought was quite fascinating too:

QUOTE: BBM
"

Another piece of the puzzle, though, is how each connection forms in the first place — why denim in particular is disgusting, or why silk is joyful. On the one hand, Ramachandran says, it’s possible that some of these responses are born out of memory, a particularly traumatic or positive experience with a certain texture creating a lasting unconscious reaction.​

"

https://www.thecut.com/2016/05/the-people-who-store-their-emotions-in-their-fingertips.html

Hi lampformypath - thanks for your interesting reply to my question of whether CSK would have taken his mother or sister’s underwear or clothes off the clothes line.


https://www.thecut.com/2016/05/the-people-who-store-their-emotions-in-their-fingertips.html


“Ramachandran says, it’s possible that some of these responses are born out of memory, a particularly traumatic or positive experience with a certain texture creating a lasting unconscious reaction”.

I get the part about how items of underwear and clothing bring back a memory of positive or traumatic experiences. In CSK case his memories must be from traumatic experiences. How does this then link to rape and violence? MOO

 

[Spinnaker]

This debacle goes from bad to worse , it made more sense when it was shut down

Have to agree FF!

Folks we still have people going off topic - please don’t go off on tangents, otherwise we will be shut down again.

It’s also not a competition to see who can write the best essay.

Can we try and stick to the factual for awhile to get back on track.


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[Spinnaker]

Technically, of course it was all collected originally. Im not sure how long the forensics had access to the body and the scene but you'd have to assume it was only a brief period within which to collect evidence.
I think it speaks not only to the lack of capabilities of DNA extraction methods at that time, particularly in Western Australia, but also to the relative inexperience of the police in dealing with such evidence. My take is that they didn't realise what they had was capable of providing anything useful and when they were made aware of that capability, it was sent to be tested.
Its quite a contrast to see the forensic police today cover head to toe in overalls, booties, head coverings and masks compared with the images of them processing JRs site wearing nothing more than gloves. Other shots of line searches & police milling around CGs site show the police wearing nothing in the way of protection from contamination of any evidence whatsoever.

Thanks for this info no name.


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[no name]

Despite there appearing to be multiple sources of DNA tying these crimes together, and the logical assertion that they would have hoped to have caught the person responsible many years ago, I think the police would have preferred to have taken this case to trial back at a time where knowledge of forensics was alot less than it is today and there werent quite so many cases heard previously to set the precedence.
Knowing only what we know now, I dont think any of them will be looking forward to taking this to court. Id say they're in for quite a battle and I can only hope that what we hear eventually is the absolute truth of the matters, good or bad.

 

[lampformypath]

Hi lampformypath - thanks for your interesting reply to my question of whether CSK would have taken his mother or sister’s underwear or clothing

“Ramachandran says, it’s possible that some of these responses are born out of memory, a particularly traumatic or positive experience with a certain texture creating a lasting unconscious reaction”.

I get the part about how items of underwear and clothing bring back a memory of positive or traumatic experiences. In CSK case his memories must be from traumatic experiences. How does this then link to rape and violence? Were his traumatic experiences violent? MOO

I couldn't possibly know, as I said, all just guess work, but yes, I think he had some sort of violent trauma in his past and the "comfort" thing started and lead to the self-pleasuring with the silky items, then the stealing items from other washing lines, minor arson no doubt in there too early on, then the "flashing", voyeurism as he gets a bit older (and bolder) and wants greater satisfaction/escalating behaviours to violence to gain what he wants i.e. break-ins "just to lie with a girl/touch her/take what he wants" to get complete sexual gratification. But all the while that silky touch is there and the frustration is building as he seeks more and more thrills in greater risk taking behaviour. The stealing underwear/women's sport wear is both calming to touch them initially AND sexually arousing as it links back to his early fantasies with women's "private" items and his sexual gratification. Something happened in his early childhood but it's just MOO, a combination of nature and nurture gone wrong. Remember too that siblings who have experienced the same traumatic events will often react in very different ways. IMO. We have two sisters we know of, now in their late 60s, both were sexually abused by their father. One has become an "elective" mute (she choses not to speak, and just answers a simple yes or no when she absolutely has to talk. She has lived alone like this all her adult life, withdrawn and silent), her sister is out-going, gregarious, and very theatrical with no outward signs of the terrible life she has endured. Not that I'm saying that sister DOESN'T suffer from what has happened to her, just saying that people process things in different ways and present in different ways in the same family, having suffered the same dreadful events.

 

[Pandit]

It is one thing to discuss the mental state, habits and crimes of an adult as the alleged CSK but quite another to speculate with story and imagery on the fantasies of children and their sexuality on a public thread.