Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

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  • #1,261
The former cop believes Ms Cutler succumbed to whatever fate she met in a five-hour window between 12.30am on June 20 and daybreak that morning.

“(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.


https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html
 
  • #1,262
The article says all police found in the car were champagne flutes from the Parmelia.

The killer put the flutes in there? The only thing in the car.
 
  • #1,263
I don't think I'd ascribe to the perpetrator of the CAKe any such excuse to claim a psychiatrist defence.
The actions were probably deliberate and planned out, rather than a product of some unplanned instant psychosis episodes.
It might well be that he was let off the chain by precipitating personal relationship events. But stalking, anger, revenge even rage against feeling inadequate or betrayed are not necessarily psychosis.
I wonder if we'll find SS someone nearer to where the object of his anger resided at the time? I wonder if the perpetrator was hunting for a particular target that had frequented that area and he just took the nearest thing when he couldn't find her?
I don't think I'd describe any of these actions as a product of any psychosis that would prevent the perpetrator from differentiating between right and wrong IMO.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

Psychosis is similar to schizophrenia.

An insanity plea brings permanent incarceration till you die.

Not the best option of defence.
 
  • #1,264
After comments about a leg disability which are not substantiated, some pain killers may have been in use.
 
  • #1,265
Psychosis is similar to schizophrenia.

An insanity plea brings permanent incarceration till you die.

Not the best option of defence.
Not an option for the defence at all IMO. In order to consider that they would have to prove the person was completely unaware that what he was doing was wrong. Someone suffering psychosis to that extent isnt usually leading a seemingly normal life.
 
  • #1,266
An insanity plea is lifetime till death on one charge.
Considering current action, it looks like a guilty plea is on the cards for at least one charge.
Otherwise not guilty first time up.
 
  • #1,267
  • #1,268
If you look in the pictures, you will see the onshore winds when they are pulling the car out.
Your comments conflict with police, media and rough weather the next day in the picture as they pull out the car.

Driving the car off the wall is the most logical and either way it really matters little when considering the other police reports.

That was, they dont believe Julie was in the car when it entered the water.
Julie reported a madman trying to run her off the road.
There were no other clothes in the car including the shoulder bag she often wore that police cannot locate.

Police believe Julie was murdered. Police believe Julie was not in the car.
My comments and metics (from her expert maps) are taken from bureau of meteorology weather reports and reported in the West Australian the day after in June 20 -22 1988. I have detailed notes and some images.
Sunday 19[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1988: Temp min 13.6 at 8.50 pm and max 20.6 at 11.45 am.

Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1988: SW winds at 10 to 15 knots easing to 10 knots by late morning. Seas should be 1 m on a swell of 3 m.

Temp Min 10.7 degrees at 7.30 am and max 18.4 degrees at 2.25 pm. (Accurate for Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1988, taken from Tuesday 21[SUP]st[/SUP] weather)

Tuesday 21[SUP]st[/SUP] June 1988 Forecast Perth fine and cool.

North East winds 5 to 12 knots. Seas should be 0.5 m on a swell to 2.5 m.

Temp: Min 10.6 degrees at 7.05 am and max 20 degrees at 1.35 pm

Extended forecast: With a high pressure cell establishing itself over the southern half, fine conditions should persist over the State until late tomorrow. A front should approach the coast tomorrow night and cross the lower west coast on Thursday.

Wednesday 22[SUP]nd[/SUP] June 1988 Forecast Fine. Outlook showers developing. Temp: Min 10.6 at 5.00 am and max 23.7 at 2.40 pm.

North East winds 8 to 10 knots. Seas should be 0.5 m on a swell to 2.5 m. Winds should be tending northerly during the day.

When the average see breeze in summer is 20 to 25 knots, these winds are hardly strong, and getting lighter every day. Swell and waves got increasingly lighter each day as well.

There was a high pressure system over Perth on the 20th June 1988, although in the lower SW of the State there were showers and strengthening NW winds.
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  • #1,269
Looking at the WA police photo of the car upside down I'm thinking had the police divers searched the car already and found the champagne flutes, were they smashed (they might have been it doesn't say) How many were there? 2 for a couple having a drink or 5 or 6 that JC was collecting to make up a set. And don't forget the blouse and tights found in the Kebab shop at the time of her disappearance but not handed in to the police for a year. If it was JCs then it should have her DNA on it.

http://www.news.com.au/news/vanishe...g/news-story/1f9da6564bf58fdfb6f6532c5e7b5d2f

If police suspect Julie was murdered then someone else left the bag deliberatelyat Kings Kebabs.

Then a woman rings and says that she wants to be left alone.

That would mean that when the man and woman left after Julie at the Parmelia staff party that there is a real possibility a female is involved in 1988.

Thats a real possible MO of disappearing murder victims.

Murderers faking a victims disappearance.
 
  • #1,270
Met has just explained in a post, the tide had nothing to do with it. There had been a big swell which brought the waves up to the promenade, there are plenty of pics over the web to demonstrate this at Cottesloe even in summer.

I don't think you can state that the Fiat wasn't in the sea at daybreak. It just wasn't noticed. Not seen straight away lying on a disturbed sea floor in water that was murky after such a big swell and perfectly camouflaged being two tone grey.

Unlike a light back seat which of course was spotted straight away because it was found washed up on the beach.

Again, the detective didn't suggest at all the car acted as some kind of cork bobbing up and down. It didn't. He said it floated momentarily. It went over the wall, propelled forward with some weight behind it, hit the sea and slewed around before settling.

There is nothing illogical with this scenario.

EDIT: What would be really interesting to know, or try to calculate is how fast the Fiat was going when it launched off the wall / shelf and into the sea. I'd take a guess it didn't just lazily roll off it, it had picked up quite a bit of speed by the time it went over. Knowing that might help us in working out how many people were involved in ditching the car.

One of the interesting facts stated by Ron in the article was that the car was not in the ocean the next morning. Swimmers were and it wasn't there. The bobbies and pylon to groyne swimmers were all over the area that morning and the other two when they did find the Fiat two days later. Ron used this information to develop his theory that the car floated out that night and back two days later.

It was also interesting that he has only considered that it went off the retaining wall near the boatshed, and from the photos this seems to be close to where it was towed in.

Just a reminder that the article "Car in Surf Mystery Deepens" doesn't mention damage to the chassi. The way I understand what was written was that there were no scrape marks (on the rocks) that the car was driven off groyne.

Finally the tide is important. The high tide hadn't yet occurred at day break, the tide was still coming in from 9,30 pm until abut 9.30 am. Everyone has seen pictures of high tides and rough seas when the waves can reach the retaining wall, but it wasn't like that the nights of 20 -22 June 1988. Tide was out, waves and wind were not huge. In these conditions any movement of tide and waves would bring objects into shore, not out to sea IOM.

Car in Surf Mystery Deepens
The entry point of the car into the water remains a mystery. There was no evidence, such as scrape marks that the car had been driven off the groyne. To drive from the service road around the walkway to the groyne would have involved negotiating deep sand drifts that have blown across the walk way.
The other most likely entry would be off the service road that leads to the CSLSC boatshed. Such an entry would involve running the car off a 1 m concrete retaining wall, across a narrow stretch of sand into the surf…


If you really want to see who far a car wold go when it's driven into the ocean as fast as possible look at the Car V Ocean 4 WD. The driver put his foot down and accelerated into the ocean as fast as possible, had a snorkel exhaust, big wheels. How far did that get again??
 
  • #1,271
In this video it shows the retrieval of JC's car and the beach scenario.
Noticeably a fairly long distance from the ocean up to the wall.
Im still not 100% sure i believe that there wasn't car tyre tracks on the sand at some moment..

Innerchild , do you know if its possible that the perp could have covered any tyre tracks by himself if there was some ?
Or do you know that people were on the beach Monday morn and could be sure?
Supposing the beach was perfectly smooth from the waves receding and no human / footprints , they would not be able to say for sure if a car had driven on the ramp onto beach and into the ocean. And thats what the new JC news article says that is what the investigators think occured.

Remembering the tides were so minimal in movement that they barely would have affected the high tide mark , the size and power of the waves would be a much larger factor obviously.
This screen shot photo of beach shows that distance is considerable.

See video ;

https://thewest.com.au/news/crime/s...-jane-rimmers-sister-speaks-out-ng-b88363434z

Screen shots from video in the link
e65d04af18f72fe55b685804ac9d4ad0.jpg
63bac16fd172012b632209b8c1de6351.jpg
63214e1677412c67652328e1aece4c3d.jpg
 
  • #1,272
Thanks DRT. If we'd seen this old piece we may have saved quite a bit of time debating whether the car went over the groyne and how it got onto it traversing sand drifts. Do you have a link please?
Sorry I only have library access to articles. At the time this was being debated, I either hadn't joined the library or was unaware of the online access available or I would have mentioned it. I had always assumed the car was driven/pushed off the groyne until the analysis on this site and was in agreeance that the car was driven off the access road after all sides were presented.

A lot of articles at the time from Battye library sources stated things opposite to what they have been stated now.

From yesterday https://www.smh.com.au/national/wes...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html

"After we recovered Julie’s vehicle...we were able to establish that one of the rear doors of her car couldn't be locked,” he said.


From 2017 similar details to what was published in 1988.
http://www.news.com.au/news/vanishe...da6564bf58fdfb6f6532c5e7b5d2f?from=public_rss
"Forensic tests showed that the ignition and headlights had been on when the car entered the water, the front driver’s side window was open, the rear doors were locked and both front doors were unlocked."

Rear doors were often locked because there was no key entry to back doors or central locking at the time. They would have been only opened if someone was using the back seat. Having a backdoor that can't lock completely changes the dynamics of the story.
 
  • #1,273
Quote Innerchild :
"Finally the tide is important. The high tide hadn't yet occurred at day break, the tide was still coming in from 9,30 pm until abut 9.30 am.
Everyone has seen pictures of high tides and rough seas when the waves can reach the retaining wall, but it wasn't like that the nights of 20 -22 June 1988.
Tide was out, waves and wind were not huge.
In these conditions any movement of tide and waves would bring objects into shore, not out to sea IOM."

The tide was only a minor tide difference though wasnt it Innertube ? It wasnt a tide that rose metres, we are talking about a very small rise compared to the maximum levels.
The winds were blowing offshore most of the mon-tues-weds so i dont think that anything evidence wise would necessarily be blown back into the shore. It would go southward along with the leeuwin current which was flowing exceptionally strong at the time !
 
  • #1,274
Please provide the link to the article where this police officer states the car wasn't in the ocean the next morning as a given fact.

Imo unless someone was actually there when the car went in and were involved in it's ditching, nobody can state for a fact it wasn't there when the seat was found. Nobody at that point was looking for a car or expecting there might even be one under the water.

You can't prove a negative, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

To there being no marks on the chassis, it confirms imo that the car was probably doing some speed when it launched off the wall and into the sea. Front and rear of the Fiat cleared, it didn't just casually roll or drop off diving nose first into the sand for a slow tumble. Essentially it leaped through the air and into the ocean imo so unless the Car V Ocean 4WD is taking a jump off an elevated shelf or ramp into a sea with a big swell at high speed, there is no equivalence.

To objects generally coming back in to shore, I agree and one did. The car seat.





One of the interesting facts stated by Ron in the article was that the car was not in the ocean the next morning. Swimmers were and it wasn't there. The bobbies and pylon to groyne swimmers were all over the area that morning and the other two when they did find the Fiat two days later. Ron used this information to develop his theory that the car floated out that night and back two days later.

It was also interesting that he has only considered that it went off the retaining wall near the boatshed, and from the photos this seems to be close to where it was towed in.

Just a reminder that the article "Car in Surf Mystery Deepens" doesn't mention damage to the chassi. The way I understand what was written was that there were no scrape marks (on the rocks) that the car was driven off groyne.

Finally the tide is important. The high tide hadn't yet occurred at day break, the tide was still coming in from 9,30 pm until abut 9.30 am. Everyone has seen pictures of high tides and rough seas when the waves can reach the retaining wall, but it wasn't like that the nights of 20 -22 June 1988. Tide was out, waves and wind were not huge. In these conditions any movement of tide and waves would bring objects into shore, not out to sea IOM.

Car in Surf Mystery Deepens
The entry point of the car into the water remains a mystery. There was no evidence, such as scrape marks that the car had been driven off the groyne. To drive from the service road around the walkway to the groyne would have involved negotiating deep sand drifts that have blown across the walk way.
The other most likely entry would be off the service road that leads to the CSLSC boatshed. Such an entry would involve running the car off a 1 m concrete retaining wall, across a narrow stretch of sand into the surf…


If you really want to see who far a car wold go when it's driven into the ocean as fast as possible look at the Car V Ocean 4 WD. The driver put his foot down and accelerated into the ocean as fast as possible, had a snorkel exhaust, big wheels. How far did that get again??
 
  • #1,275
Please provide the link to the article where this police officer states the car wasn't in the ocean the next morning as a given fact.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html

Quoted from article "(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises" Ron Carey - [FONT=&quot]former WA Police detective[/FONT]
 
  • #1,276
Quote DRT :
"Sorry I only have library access to articles. At the time this was being debated, I either hadn't joined the library or was unaware of the online access available or I would have mentioned it."

DRT , thanks but it did not matter because there were many reports that said that same thing.
About half the msn reports said the groyne and the other half said the surfclub area roads. We were trying to figure it out for ourselves basically because all news reports had contradictory theories.
JmO
 
  • #1,277
If police suspect Julie was murdered then someone else left the bag deliberatelyat Kings Kebabs.

Then a woman rings and says that she wants to be left alone.

That would mean that when the man and woman left after Julie at the Parmelia staff party that there is a real possibility a female is involved in 1988.

Thats a real possible MO of disappearing murder victims.

Murderers faking a victims disappearance.

Interesting that Julie was another midnight disappearance also.

I cant find the post where police interviewed a Cottesloe local about smells down near Beach st .
There was a user adamant that car went off the groyne without a scratch.
More misinformation.
 
  • #1,278
Interesting that Julie was another midnight disappearance also.

I cant find the post where police interviewed a Cottesloe local about smells down near Beach st .
There was a user adamant that car went off the groyne without a scratch.
More misinformation.

http://go.galegroup.com/ps/i.do?id=...PS&sw=w&asid=51c151834f7f0b5c2a8b86e9fa3f754f

Quote from Article
"A long-time Cottesloe resident said yesterday that he wasapproached by two detectives who had been inspecting some bushes at the corner of Marine Pde and Beach St.

He said he was asked if he could remember any unusual smells near the beach about the time Ms Cutler's car was

recovered."

Edited to add:
Serial kill link to beach puzzle

The Sunday Times (Perth, Western Australia, Australia). (June 23, 2002): News: p003. From Infotrac Newsstand.
Copyright: COPYRIGHT 2002 News Limitedhttp://sundaytimes.com.au/
 
  • #1,279
At the end of 2016 with the arrest of BRE, families of Perth's missing and murdered girls were asking of reviews of their cases with regard to whether the accused could have also been responsible for the disappearance/murder of their child. There have been mixed feelings on Websleuths regarding the connection between JC and the Claremont deaths.

It would be interesting to see if there are any connections after the cold case review with the alleged CSK.
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-of-missing-and-murdered-20161231-gtk9el.html

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...s-checked-ng-a5c5df3fe4c2cab88bfab42344cef211
 
  • #1,280
I cant find the post where police interviewed a Cottesloe local about smells down near Beach st .
More misinformation.
Have you found the article about the naked man washing up near Swanbourne yet or is that what you were referring to in the last sentence?
 
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