Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #6

[Mo Joe]

99% of them.

That's a bit of a stretch. It's a huge stretch actually. (No offence). Just ruling out old men, disabled men, little men, weak men, and injured men would bring the number down much further than 99%. MOO.

 

[Bartholemeus]

That's a bit of a stretch. It's a huge stretch actually. (No offence). Just ruling out old men, disabled men, little men, weak men, and injured men would bring the number down much further than 99%. MOO.

I think there's an inbuilt assumption that I'm talking about physically able men given we're talking about a serial killer. I shouldn't have stipulate that I'm excluding guys in wheelchairs or dwarves or dudes with a broken leg etc.

I don't think we're going to get far if posters are hung up on technicalities.

As I said, 99% of men would be strong enough to carry out those two tasks.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Stalkers eavesdrop.

What are the chances the girls had a conversation that included either the address or the route home?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Could have the CSK have been incapacitated in some way that no longer allowed him to keep killing? Slim but possible.

 

[88mph]

Scenario 1 - KK Man grabs victim from behind. Holds knife to neck and told not to move. He pushes her onto ground on her stomach and bags her head, ties her hands. He then frogmarches her to her car under the threat of a knife.

Scenario 2 - CG could be described as petite or diminutive. At a guess, she'd be 50kg. The CSK drives into that bush track, parks, and carries her in his arms maybe 20m.


The vast majority of men can handle that.

There's no real indication as to the CSK's strength other than an early media report that suggested the KK victim felt her attacker was tall.

Good points Bart.

It's the CG site that gives me the impression he's relativity strong. The drop is quite far into the bush on an undulating downward slope.

Statistically I'm stronger and fitter than the average guy and I would struggle to move a 50kg dead weight down to that spot (unless I was dragging it).

It's something I imagine a LW might struggle with but the MAP might do easily.

That's just my opinion though.

Having been to the JR site there is a wire fence between the road and the cross marking her site, I'd really like to know if that fence was there at the time of the drop as it would have also been difficult to drop the body without some strength. JR weighed more than 50kg if I understand correctly.


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[Mo Joe]

What are the chances the girls had a conversation that included either the address or the route home?

The girls 'or' their family and / or friends? How many different routes would there have been?

 

[Mo Joe]

Could have the CSK have been incapacitated in some way that no longer allowed him to keep killing? Slim but possible.

Precisely what year did the random killings stop? Was it about 2007?

 

[Mo Joe]

The CR murder (2007) is unsolved.

 

[88mph]

Whatever we assume about KK, he has abducted the girl and walked her to his car which is parked somewhere away from the abduction point. He's gone from one side of the park over to the other where his car is parked. There's two locations this set up works for CG and one for SS.

I'm still not sold on blitz attack for SS but have a look at the similarities;

View attachment 104654

If we were to make an assumption that all girls were blitzed then where did JR get blitzed from?

If Frankie's claims are true and he was in fact at the bus stop and saw GC (and no car stoped), does this throw the SS sighting into doubt? We've not had any occupants of the car which saw her comment on here. There has also been strong debate on why she would call a taxi then cross the road.

The carpark behind the Christ Church Centre would be a great location for the CSK to grab someone calling a taxi and waiting near the phone box, though the apartment block behind creates an opportunity for witnesses (so it's not good from that perspective).

If SS waited next to the phone box, then the car park behind CCC makes sense. If she crossed the road as reported, I'd find the CCC highly unlikely and the Mazda Dealership the more likely parking spot.


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[Mo Joe]

If the CSK found himself involved in a conversation about the CSK, how would he react?

 

[Bartholemeus]

If Frankie's claims are true and he was in fact at the bus stop and saw GC (and no car stoped), does this throw the SS sighting into doubt? We've not had any occupants of the car which saw her comment on here. There has also been strong debate on why she would call a taxi then cross the road.

The carpark behind the Christ Church Centre would be a great location for the CSK to grab someone calling a taxi and waiting near the phone box, though the apartment block behind creates an opportunity for witnesses (so it's not good from that perspective).



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I think if either Frankie is telling the truth or for some other reason there was no car talking to CG then it's much more plausible to put down the car seen at the SS location not coming forward down to a reasonable reason.

What I struggle with Blitz Theory is;

1. The CSK had to be waiting on the wrong side of the road. The other side at the phone box is a far superior place to lie in wait.
2. The car that didn't make it through the lights. The occupant/s never came forward
3. The car seen talking to CG - the occupant/s never came forward

One driver not coming forward is explainable. Two is a massive stretch. Remove one of those from the equation and the whole thing becomes a lot more plausible.

Let's say CG never did talk to a car. The SS car might have turned into Chatsworth Tce. Maybe it did a u-turn. Maybe the driver never came forward because the next day they got on a plane to overseas for a couple of years? Maybe the CSK stalked SS by foot and his car was already waiting behind Olifants or CC Centre? Maybe he chose the less likely abduction point to lie in wait?

But if we take those three points at face value then it's hard to see a blitz attack happening.

If SS waited next to the phone box, then the car park behind CCC makes sense. If she crossed the road as reported, I'd find the CCC highly unlikely and the Mazda Dealership the more likely parking spot.

If his MO is to lie in wait then he had to choose which spot before he knew someone was coming. Grabbing someone from the phone box is a much better option.

I don't think he drove up, saw her, and then parked.

Is it possible he pulled up, jumped out and asked for directions or something similar?

 

[Nugget77]

If the CSK found himself involved in a conversation about the CSK, how would he react?

Intriguing question. I'm not sure. What's your thoughts? Any reason why you would ask?

Anybody else?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Good points Bart.

It's the CG site that gives me the impression he's relativity strong. The drop is quite far into the bush on an undulating downward slope.

Statistically I'm stronger and fitter than the average guy and I would struggle to move a 50kg dead weight down to that spot (unless I was dragging it).

It's something I imagine a LW might struggle with but the MAP might do easily.

That's just my opinion though.

Having been to the JR site there is a wire fence between the road and the cross marking her site, I'd really like to know if that fence was there at the time of the drop as it would have also been difficult to drop the body without some strength. JR weighed more than 50kg if I understand correctly.


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I thought all you guys were saying LW is tall (and therefore reasonably strong)? Which one is it?

I'd consider myself of average strength. I'd have no problems whatsoever carrying 50kg to the dump site. On the weekend I bought some 20kg bags of top soil for my lawn. There were no handles on the bags. I scrunched up the corners and carried one in each hand down to my back shed. 60m without a problem.

Like most guys, LW would do that easy, Judoman would do that with his thumb and index finger.

 

[Bartholemeus]

The girls 'or' their family and / or friends? How many different routes would there have been?

There's only one route.

But for what reason is her family or friends going to mention the address in conversation?

Can you provide some plausible scenarios?

 

[Mo Joe]

Intriguing question. I'm not sure. What's your thoughts? Any reason why you would ask?

Anybody else?

Over the last 20 years, there would have been thousands of CSK discussions at homes, workplaces, and social settings. Either he is a complete loner, or he has been around when they occurred. Would he join in and risk giving something away, or would he make an excuse and withdraw from the conversation? It's possible someone has witnessed his reaction.

 

[Mo Joe]

There's only one route.

But for what reason is her family or friends going to mention the address in conversation?

Can you provide some plausible scenarios?

People give a lot of information away without realising it. If he was on the periphery of their lives he wouldn't need exact details, especially if there was only one route and he was intercepting. But TBH IDK.

 

[Bartholemeus]

The CR murder (2007) is unsolved.

Lloyd Rayney is most likely the murderer. They hated each other and he was due to meet her to discuss their separation/divorce. She was found in a shallow grave down a little used track in Kings Park. Found on that track was LR's ID in the form of a name badge that you might use at business function or event. He initially lied and said he drove his wife's car to that said function to explain how it got onto that bush track (because her own car was used to take her to the dump site).

All circumstantial of course and not enough to convict but I know where I would place my money.

 

[meticulously]

Lloyd Rayney is most likely the murderer. They hated each other and he was due to meet her to discuss their separation/divorce. She was found in a shallow grave down a little used track in Kings Park. Found on that track was LR's ID in the form of a name badge that you might use at business function or event. He initially lied and said he drove his wife's car to that said function to explain how it got onto that bush track (because her own car was used to take her to the dump site).

All circumstantial of course and not enough to convict but I know where I would place my money.

Even Michael atkins can get away with it let alone a legal expert .
For sure even a little guy could move cg body if they really want to . Catherine bernie comes to mind even she could overpower a woman . Adrenaline is high for these people theres life & death struggles . It is interesting that two cars didn't come forth to identify themselves

layout app for photos

 

[Mo Joe]

Lloyd Rayney is most likely the murderer. They hated each other and he was due to meet her to discuss their separation/divorce. She was found in a shallow grave down a little used track in Kings Park. Found on that track was LR's ID in the form of a name badge that you might use at business function or event. He initially lied and said he drove his wife's car to that said function to explain how it got onto that bush track (because her own car was used to take her to the dump site).


All circumstantial of course and not enough to convict but I know where I would place my money.

Do you have a description of the man she was allegedly seen having coffee with [possibly by an off duty police officer] after her line dancing?

 

[Mo Joe]

Over the last 20 years, there would have been thousands of CSK discussions at homes, workplaces, and social settings. Either he is a complete loner, or he has been around when they occurred. Would he join in and risk giving something away, or would he make an excuse and withdraw from the conversation? It's possible someone has witnessed his reaction.

My guess would be that he would busy himself somewhere where he could still hear the conversation, but where his facial expressions could not be seen or read. I doubt he would offer his opinion. I'd be interested in the opinion of a profiler as to how the CSK would behave under those circumstances.