Australia Australia - Jenny Cook, 29, Townsville, Qld, 19 Jan 2009

[FigTree]

Yes, Cattail, they did indeed.

I'm wondering how they got the autopsy report though, after reading this? Unless some of them were family/close friends........(maybe they were).

Shall ask them. I'd love it if we could get Jenny's.

If I recall...
I have a feeling it was in their professional capacity to obtain the documents as they later submitted information relevant to the toxicology report regarding levels in the blood samples taken from the liver.

I think it was DrWatson and Makira?

 

[catswhiskers]

Yes very good point about the insects Figtree - especially in North Queensland's warmer weather.

I know this sounds awful, but I'd also like to know if Jenny and her wounds, and the bloodstained board were checked for her dog's saliva. If the dog had in fact been near Jenny when she died I wouldn't be surprised if it would have been fretting for her and trying to care for her, which could account for the lack of obvious blood stains around her perhaps. I know if ever I have a scratch or injury on my legs my little dog most diligently licks the spot, which I interpret as a caring gesture (even though I joke that he would eat me if he had the chance). Heck the dog could have even had blood evidence on its paws or fur if anyone had bothered to look. I'm guessing the floors/sinks etc in the house weren't checked for traces of blood either, unfortunately.
Sorry if that sounds far fetched or anything - I just keep thinking of all the what ifs that don't seem to have been considered.
I'm thinking the presence of the dog at the time of Jenny's fatal wounding could very well disprove the suicide theory - in that it might have been locked on the balcony after the fact (if it was on the balcony at all).

 

[BatWoman]

It wasnt part of the bail hearing documents was it? If that's the case we are unlikely to see it.

 

[catswhiskers]

If I recall...
I have a feeling it was in their professional capacity to obtain the documents as they later submitted information relevant to the toxicology report regarding levels in the blood samples taken from the liver.

I think it was DrWatson and Makira?

I've hoped DrWatson would cast an eye over what was said about Jenny's autopsy too - chest wounds are in his area of expertise.

 

[doradodds]

No, the Coroner was unable to conclude that as fact.

From the Coroner: Findings of the Inquest - page 26:
How she died:
Quoted: I am unable to determine whether or not Ms Cook committed suicide.


It was the Police who concluded that it was a suicide:
Page 30: From the Findings of the Inquest - Page 30:
Quoted: As stated above, investigating police concluded on 20 January 2009 that Ms Cook committed suicide against a background of back injury and depression.[/QUOTE]


Yes but the beginning of the sentence you quoted said "Whilst the only evidence obtained and now available, points to suicide,.." There is no other evidence. So until there is any evidence to the contrary it is suicide. What possible other evidence is there to be obtained?

 

[Ausgirl]

I've hoped DrWatson would cast an eye over what was said about Jenny's autopsy too - chest wounds are in his area of expertise.

Anyone shot the Doc a pm yet? I was kinda hoping for an expert opinion also!

 

[FigTree]

I've hoped DrWatson would cast an eye over what was said about Jenny's autopsy too - chest wounds are in his area of expertise.

Yes, he maybe able to have a look if the reported neck and hand wounds were also present on the body.

I would like to know about the other injuries to Jenny's body from the Autopsy Report, and how the conclusion was made by one individual relating to the manner of order in which the injuries were made, and the windpipe cutting.


Witness account/testimony from the Finding from the Inquest:
Page 4:
Quote: The stomach showed that Ms Cook had swallowed blood. There were no pills, tablets or capsules found in her stomach.
-----
Page 7
Quote: SOCO Kraatz - He observed Ms Cook and noted that she was wearing a white floppy hat on her head and there was a brown fitted sheet partially draped over her head and under the length of her body. A white ‘bandage’ was loosely wrapped around her neck and appeared to be holding the sheet in place over the back of her head.
-----
Page 12 -
Quote: Ms Pullen viewed Ms Cook at the funeral home and saw two wounds on her chest – a small cut 1.25cm across between her ribs and another horizontal cut on her neck, below the larynx, also about 1.25cm across.
-----
Page 24 - Witness
Quote: Mr Ries stated that Mr Cook told him that Ms Cook had cuts on her hands and wounds on her neck and that she had impaled herself on a knife and severed her windpipe.
-----
Mr Cook told him that she had a few cut marks on her neck.
-----
Later on, when Mr Ries and Mr Cook were back at work Mr Cook told him that Ms Cook inflicted some superficial wounds on her neck and then wedged the knife in the wall and stabbed herself with it.

 

[FigTree]

Re contructing the post and reply:

1) Post from doradodds:

Quote Originally Posted by doradodds View Post
Did the coroner not say that the only conclusion with all the evidence available was Jenny committed suicide?

2) My Reply Post: (FigTree)

No, the Coroner was unable to conclude that as fact.

From the Coroner: Findings of the Inquest - page 26:
How she died:
Quoted: I am unable to determine whether or not Ms Cook committed suicide.


It was the Police who concluded that it was a suicide:
Page 30: From the Findings of the Inquest - Page 30:
Quoted: As stated above, investigating police concluded on 20 January 2009 that Ms Cook committed suicide against a background of back injury and depression.

3) Response by doradobbs:

Yes but the beginning of the sentence you quoted said "Whilst the only evidence obtained and now available, points to suicide,.." There is no other evidence. So until there is any evidence to the contrary it is suicide. What possible other evidence is there to be obtained?

4) My Reply:
There was more to that sentence - here it is in full... My bold:

Finding from the Inquest:
Page 30:
Whilst the only evidence obtained and now available, points to suicide, taking into account the failures in the investigation, and the destruction of the knife in particular, I am unable to determine whether Ms Cook’s death was the result of suicide and that aspect of the finding must remain open.



The findings remain open and an ongoing investigation:
Quote:
Coroner Jane Bentley found Mr Cook evasive and untruthful in his evidence and said because of the problems with the investigation she could not make a finding of suicide.
She recommended the Commissioner of Police consider whether any action should be taken into the inadequacy of the investigation.
This week – more than six months after the ruling – the Queensland Police Service have not acted.


The aspect of suicide as the cause of death is Undetermined and the finding remains open.

 

[they'll get you]

It just looked very suspicious that a key piece of evidence was so quickly destroyed - fingerprints or no fingerprints.

That is indeed one of the factors that make it look like a cover up to me - a rush to destroy the murder weapon stands out as a red flag imo.

Why would they destroy a knife? Admittedly it's not the item I'd like in my kitchen but it's totally unnecessary to destroy.

 

[SouthAussie]

I still can't get past the fact that Jenny is supposed to have suicided in the manner that a prisoner in jail may attempt suicide.

She didn't take the many pills that were in her possession to commit suicide.
She didn't cut her wrists and sit in a warm bath.
She didn't go and jump from a high place.

No, she chose a very hit-and-miss violent method of driving her body into a knife protruding from a wall, with a blindfold on, no less! That method could have been a big fail for anyone with genuine suicide intentions.

Ridiculous imo!!

 

[FigTree]

Anyone shot the Doc a pm yet? I was kinda hoping for an expert opinion also!

No I haven't. I was asking him questions last week. I thought I might have used up my consultation quota

 

[they'll get you]

This isn't a suicide!

I've never had to wrap the handle of a knife for any reason, not even cutting pumpkin!
I'm thinking to disguise fingerprints.

Jenny was stabbed on her left side, she was found laying on her left side with her back to the knife so she must have twisted away as she fell.
A wound like that wouldn't be instant death so there should have been a lot of blood.

The plywood plank. I need to know where it was stored and why. Plywood when it lays outside gets a darker patina or colouring to it. I think plywood goes a greyish colour from the sun and rain.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/knife-edge-20140714-3bvp7.html

 

[doradodds]

I appreciate your viewpoint. Personally I really struggle to see someone choosing this method for suicide. Not because of its violence. What I find hard to believe about it is the lack of certainty of it working at all, the huge possibility of it working in a very slow and painful way, and the real possibility of it leading to her surviving with more chronic pain and health problems to add to her back pain. jmo.

The trouble is that the degree of certainty appears to be much much lower with the pills poison overdose etc than it is with stabbing cutting - sharp objects etc.

http://www.crisis.org.cn/uploadfile/readparty/methods--lethality.pdf

 

[SouthAussie]

The trouble is that the degree of certainty appears to be much much lower with the pills poison overdose etc than it is with stabbing cutting - sharp objects etc.

http://www.crisis.org.cn/uploadfile/readparty/methods--lethality.pdf

I'm sorry doradodds, but to me it is completely absurd that anyone could think that blindfolding yourself and driving your body into a knife that is stuck into a wall could have any kind of certainty as a suicide method. Plenty of certainty of hurting yourself ... but having the accuracy to drive yourself hard enough into a wedged knife to strike a fatal area that bled minimally ... while blindfolded ... pfft.

As I said before, cut your wrists and sit in the bathtub for an hour, if suicide is your aim.

There is something very hinky about this whole thing. Sounds as though someone with a high familiarity with the prison environment (and prison suicides) had a hand in this death to me.

 

[they'll get you]

I appreciate your viewpoint. Personally I really struggle to see someone choosing this method for suicide. Not because of its violence. What I find hard to believe about it is the lack of certainty of it working at all, the huge possibility of it working in a very slow and painful way, and the real possibility of it leading to her surviving with more chronic pain and health problems to add to her back pain. jmo.

I agree with you! It's bazaar. Nah I'm not buying it either. I googled 'woman suicide by stabbing' & only one came up from Pakistan who made a public spectacle in a supermarket in front of people by stabbing herself in the throat.

 

[doradodds]

Dora - I am the one with professional experience, not Ausgirl (as far as I know).

You've got confused about who has written what.

And regarding understanding suicide, being a 'detached' professional - as you put it - does not negate my understanding of it IMO. I have worked with hundreds of people who have attempted suicide. I have sat with them and their families for hours and weeks and months in the aftermath, as well as with families who have lost loved ones to suicide.

But none of this has ANYTHING to do with the logical analysis of Jenny's case. This requires a cool, objective head - not emotion laden responses. Emotion clouds judgement, big-time.

Sorry there i seem to have got confused with the "professional" involvement when I was replying to Ausgirl. She did say she had experience with suicide as well.

I do not in anyway imply that being involved in a profession detached (lets face it - one would not be acting in a professional manner if they were attached) way with suicide negates anyone's understanding in that area. I do however say that being involved in an attached way (several times over) adds much much more to ones understanding of the issues. Surely from your profession observations you have come across relatives of suicide victims who just will never accept it was suicide and are desperate to find something else to explain it all away. This phenomenon is often exaggerated in relatives who believed they had a close relationship with the victim and thus would have know or have been told by the victim or left a note by the victim. One conversation with the daughter of a man who committed suicide and never left any message for her was particularly heart-breaking when she said "I just keep wondering if he thought about us at all at that time, if we figured at all to him and I will never know because he never left us a note, but then again I do not know how I would handle it knowing that he was thinking about us but went ahead and did it anyway" All I could do was hug her - my daughter.

 

[Ausgirl]

The sheer popularity of pills, wrist cutting in the bath, etc, strongly suggests that people on the brink of suicide don't tend to pause to google lethality before the attempt. Possibly, it is the perception of what appears to be more painless which helps them make this decision. Every text book and article I have come across on the subject states that fatal self-inflicted stabbing is uncommon, and self-impaling on a fixed object rare to the extreme. Let alone while wearing a sheet tied to one's head and very probably blindfolded by it.

Add to this highly uncommon death, these further elements:

- Jenny (an extensive journaller) did not leave a note, not even a line to her parents with whom she was closel.
- She purportedly left her extremely beloved dog locked without water on a hot summer day, all the day long.
- She was wearing a large white sunhat, and did not remove this when supposedly placing the sheet on her head.

Add to this:

- her husband fully intended beginning a life with another woman and admitted having an affair
- he did not volunteer information about leaving work early that day
- has inconsistencies in his alibi timeline
- told two different stories regarding the night prior to Jenny's death
- spoke of his dead wife in highly unflattering terms
- had a financial motive


Then think about the *fact* that the lividity in Jenny's body shows that her hand was moved after her death.


:thinking:

 

[SouthAussie]

So sorry to hear of your daughter's loss, doradodds.

 

[doradodds]

Ok - so did you read the link I gave you of actual statistics. It was not you choosing the method. It is not about what you would do or what you think others should would or wouldn't do. You simply do not know. So you are accusing her husband I take it. Please then explain to me when - the actual time he did this - and how he managed to do it unobserved in his coming and going. The dog was barking/crying from around mid morning to late afternoon. He was at work.

 

[Ausgirl]

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am saying I do not think Jenny's death was a suicide and that there's more than sufficient circumstantial evidence for it to be treated seriously as a homicide.

And he was *not* at work for over an hour at lunch, potentially much longer according to his work partner, and nor was he at work for more than an hour before he says he arrived home.

Perhaps a more thorough read of the documents will help you, re those facts.