GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[CuriousGrace]

Also, as a new member, I just wanted to say that I hope this dog burns in hell. I like how he postures about hoping the death penalty gets reinstated but still decided to plead not guilty to murder. Absolutely piece of garbage.

RSBM. :welcome: Bausslols.

Yep, he's a complete psychopath. Doesn't help he lawyered up. His lawyer would be instructing him on how best to plea.

 

[Brightbird]

I have a suspicion that the "get out of there" comment was referring to the accused's attempts to penetrate something other than the "usual"... sorry for the graphic images this may conjure up.

I think it makes as much sense if it refers to his hand up her dress. If it was Jill saying it, she wouldn't have wanted him anywhere near her body.

 

[Brightbird]

The benefit of releasing all of the horrible details of the crime is to extract a social good: to galvanise public opinion for reform of laws to keep sickos like Bayley off the streets for longer and for more stringent monitoring. There is an emphasis on rehabilitation- often failed- for offenders like Bayley and not enough emphasis on protecting the public from harm by these evidently pathological men.
There is the concern of the private, the family, and the further grief and embarrassment they would doubtlessly endure if their Jill was graphically portrayed as defiled. This concern needs to be weighed up against the public concern of the social benefit which could potentially flow in consequence of an outraged public demanding reform of obviously inadequate laws regarding these prolific, habitual, determined, recalcitrant offenders..

I respect your opinion. However, I'm in the camp that thinks the horrific and potentially humiliating material does not need to be released. Personally, I could know less about what happened to Jill and still be in favour of life without parole. He stalked a vulnerable woman, dragged her up an alley way, raped and killed her. On the basis of this alone, 30,000 people marched. I'd suggest the public was galvanized without the gory facts. Murder is murder, rape is rape, and I don't think that the intimate details should make us more angry. Releasing sensitive information is traumatic for the family, and serves to inflame hatred in the community. I'm not sure that an enraged community are the best judges of appropriate sentencing for violent criminals. I don't need to hate AB to want him locked up for good. I don't think the justice system will always get it right (clearly they don't) but I would prefer to leave the sensitive material to professionals who are trained to treat it with respect and as objectively as possible.

 

[Jmbr]

I have a suspicion that the "get out of there" comment was referring to the accused's attempts to penetrate something other than the "usual"... sorry for the graphic images this may conjure up.

I don't know. As a woman, if some man was attacking me in that way and I had the opportunity to speak I definitely wouldn't be saying "get out of there". I'm thinking he tried moves on her and this was the beginning and she said something along those lines and turned him down, he got angry and killed her.

Didn't a woman working at alasaya (maybe spelt wrong?) hear a scream? I really think more was heard but they're saving it for the trial, and were probably hoping there wouldn't be a trial.

 

[Paulie11]

Do you remember how they mentioned the pizza shop guy who had some cctv footage relating to Jill? Well it was staring us all right in the face!!!!! It would have to be the Crust Gourmet Pizzas (455-457 Sydney Road, Brunswick, 3056) footage, which is adjacent to Sparta Place- the very path I was claiming she usually takes home, and where Bayley caught up with her, whereon she was dissuaded from walking the backstreets so continued up Sydney Road. That footage is pivotal.
If you watch this footage:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/a/-/newshome/16357305/meagher-accused-said-maybe-husband-did-it/
it shows (at around the 2:28 mark) the Crust Gourmet Pizzas footage of Jill walking into Sparta Place, then two pieces of footage of Bayley running after her:
1) running across Foleys Hairplace (Shop 13/441-449 Sydney Rd COBURG VIC ,3058); and,
2) Crust Gourmet Pizzas footage of him running after Jill into Sparta Place.
They then show the Sam Mihelakos & Co P/L - Real Estate Agents (477 Sydney Rd Brunswick) footage of Bayley tailgating. He has slowed down to a walk by now, which could mean that she fobbed him off in Sparta Place or that he is just stalking her at this point without approaching yet.
Crust Gourmet Pizzas might have another camera on the side of the store (in Sparta Place), and that might have filmed precisely what I am talking about- if they ever interacted right there. That footage is instrumental, because the only publicly released footage that we have of them interacting, to date, is the blue-hoodie Duchess Boutique clip. If there is footage of them interacting at Sparta Place / Crust Gourmet Pizzas, then that shows they spoke much sooner.

There is, however, another pizza store just nearby, Godfathers Pizza (437 Sydney Rd Brunswick), which is located at the intersection of Victoria Street and Sydney road. That is metres before the Sparta Place / Crust Gourmet Pizzas footage, and it could be there that they are filmed also.

What I find interesting about all of this is that initially everyone’s focus was on the Hope Street end of Sydney Road, though as it turns out, from what I am gathering, a lot of evidence is accumulated at the Victoria Street end. So you can just imagine in the days immediately after Jill's disappearance, before it was known what happened to her, the cops would have seen eerie footage clearly showing a man (that we now know is Bayley) running and stalking Jill. That's very chilling.

 

[Paulie11]

Something else I wanted to draw to your attention is the claim that Bar Etiquette had no ccctv footage. Well, watch this footage again:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/a/-/newshome/16357305/meagher-accused-said-maybe-husband-did-it/

and at 2:08, we see an Orange Bar Etiquette sign, but just behind it- on the underside of the roof of the adjacent store- we see what seems to me to be a cctv camera (though it could be some light- i am not certain). Now, if that is a camera, it could be facing the entrance to the adjacent store, so it could not have filmed anything of import, though it seems to me that Jill would have walked along there anyway, so she would at least be filmed with work colleague, and possibly bayley himself could be seen walking along there, either talking to or stalking Jill or even other women/men, who knows. So although Bar Etiquette seems to have no cctv, the store next door seems to me to have some. I seem to vaguely recall that this point might have been covered back in the immediate aftermath of Jill's disappearance.

 

[Jmbr]

Ok this is going to sound really obvious. They have footage of the car going to and from the lane way.. So they must have footage of him dragging her in. I think I said this earlier... I also think they have footage of the attack.

Any google earth pics of the lane way with a shot of a camera at the end that could've captured it? Also who's to say he didn't just drag her in after the attack, and actually did the attack in ovens street? That's where I always assumed the attack happened...

This has probably been touched on already though.

 

[fruity]

One point I wonder about is how Bayley got into Brunswick in the first place. He must have driven and parked there.
...

I wonder where his car was parked.

He didn't drive there. That's why he walked home to get the white astra (and that's why there's a gap of a few hours while Jill was left in the lane).

They will no doubt have CCTV footage of the time he walked out of the lane and we have footage of him returning.

Edited to add:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...n-a-fateful-path/story-fnat79vb-1226598588787

That night at the lounge bar, Bayley’s girlfriend walked out after an argument about ‘‘jealousy and possessiveness’’.

About 12.25am, he caught a taxi home, the court was told.

Bayley, meanwhile, had changed into a blue hoodie and headed for Brunswick.

It is alleged he saw Jill walking alone.

 

[fruity]

Ok this is going to sound really obvious. They have footage of the car going to and from the lane way.. So they must have footage of him dragging her in. I think I said this earlier... I also think they have footage of the attack.

I think they have footage of him dragging her into the lane. IMO it's a case of listening carefully to what isn't said, rather than what is said. One of my friends is a detective (not on this case) and he has pointed out repeatedly to me that what isn't said often tells a lot more than the words said aloud.

Also, a lot hasn't been released. It never is at this stage. At first they said they only had one piece of CCTV footage. Then they said they had another which wasn't being released. Then the rumours started that there was another which showed Bayley running after her. Knowing the number of cameras in that area, it's safe to assume that there is a lot more they're keeping under their belt at this stage.

 

[Jmbr]

I think they have footage of him dragging her into the lane. IMO it's a case of listening carefully to what isn't said, rather than what is said. One of my friends is a detective (not on this case) and he has pointed out repeatedly to me that what isn't said often tells a lot more than the words said aloud.

Also, a lot hasn't been released. It never is at this stage. At first they said they only had one piece of CCTV footage. Then they said they had another which wasn't being released. Then the rumours started that there was another which showed Bayley running after her. Knowing the number of cameras in that area, it's safe to assume that there is a lot more they're keeping under their belt at this stage.

Yeah, going by the amount they released straight after the hearing, they have pretty much every step Jill and AB made that night. It's almost like they're saying "you plead not guilty? We'll show you'. What they've released is nothing on what they've got I'm sure.

At the beginning of it all they showed him chasing her in that CCTV that was really blurry, remember? It was through an art shop window or something?

I'm just reassuring myself that they have him in a corner by stating the obvious. I just want it all to be over.!

I had a bad feeling about this at the start, but now that I know the police have done such a thorough job I'm feeling more confident he will get murder... But you just never know do you...?

 

[Jmbr]

I'll tell you what, i'll settle for this compromise: we do not publicly release autopsy reports or transcrips of Bayley's interview with the police in which he makes full, frank, formal, lengthy, detailed admissions. But we do release cctv footage from Ovens Street- provided that it shows the kidnapping, but if all it shows is the car, then forget it.
i think a pertinent concern is the family's reaction to the release of details.

Do you think she may have willingly gone into the lane way with him? Is that what's important to you to find out? I understand that feeling, but I don't think the police would allege he dragged her in if he didn't. It's too risky to lie and make things up. They don't want him getting away with it.

I'm sure they'd have evidence to everything they are accusing him of. If they have footage of the car coming and going, they more than likely have footage of the two of them as well...

There's a reason they are withholding footage and information from us, and it's probably more to do with not jeopardising the case rather than deliberately withholding info from the public. Plus the judge has ordered the suppression of some information.

Are you not in Australia? You post very early in the morning and late at night if you are! You seem more on my time.

 

[Fuskier]

I have a suspicion that the "get out of there" comment was referring to the accused's attempts to penetrate something other than the "usual"... sorry for the graphic images this may conjure up.

I think it makes as much sense if it refers to his hand up her dress. If it was Jill saying it, she wouldn't have wanted him anywhere near her body.

Some alternative considerations. An earlier poster made a valid comment that due to language comprehension difficulties, there may have been misinterpretation of what was said and by whom by those who heard them i.e. the couple who heard these comments were of Asian origin, therefore an Asian language would be their first language. Jill was of Irish origins, so her first language would be Irish. These two accents may have complicated things.
However, it is also possible that a drunk was in the vicinity of the lane way, heard some noise, assumed it was a couple fornicating and yelled: "get out of there!".
Then again, it could have been a neighbour who heard similar, assumed similar, but did not see anything and yelled out what was heard.
IMO this predator would have been quick to silence his victim i.e. hand over mouth or worse, so that he could proeed with his violent attack on her. :furious:

 

[KG1]

One point I wonder about is how Bayley got into Brunswick in the first place. He must have driven and parked there. Given we know that he was following Jill from around Sparta Place, then his car must have been parked somewhere around Victoria Street. There is a distance of 306m between Victoria Street and Hope Street. I always had an untested assumption that because the crime occurred around Hope Street, that Bayley must have been parked around there. Now I doubt that- the crime location is kind of a destination, but Sparta Place is like the beginning. So it makes more sense that he would be parked around Victoria Street.
So, given that he walked so far north up along Sydney Road (to Hope Street), somehow he had to get back south (back to Victoria Street); I wonder if he took the backstreets or walked back down Sydney Road again? If he did, then all of the cctv camera footage would have captured him again, walking back down towards the city (south) after the crime. If he didn’t walk the whole way down Sydney Road, from Hope Street, then at least part of his walk might have been, thus exposing him to cctv. I wonder where his car was parked.

He used a taxi to go back to Coburg from the city after his girlfriend left him and went home, then he used another taxi to go to Brunswick, using another taxi to return home after he had killed Jill. Then he picked up a car that his girlfriend used, an Astra, and drove back to where he picked up Jill's body and wernt to Gisborne.

I think also when the words 'Get out of there' were heard, that he was likely going through one of Jill's bags. MOO

 

[DrWatson]

I think also when the words 'Get out of there' were heard, that he was likely going through one of Jill's bags. MOO

Indeed - several interpretations of the words "Get out of there", as posted by a few folks now. And that's the benefit of a forum like this - multiple minds all contributing their interpretations and thoughts. I hadn't even thought about it referring to her handbag (or perhaps even the still-missing ABC shopping bag), or even just an intruding hand trying to get into her clothing.

And of course - as has been mentioned - the added possibility of accuracy given the non-English speaking witnesses who needed a translator in court.

 

[Angeline]

I have a suspicion that the "get out of there" comment was referring to the accused's attempts to penetrate something other than the "usual"... sorry for the graphic images this may conjure up.

Yep, this crossed my mind a few times but I couldn't understand why she wouldn't scream for help.

There's the possibility that she was threatened upfront, maybe with a weapon, and she felt she had to play along in order to save her life. This is really horrible stuff, but it fits with the rest of what the Asian witness said, and also with the defence trying for just one rape charge. Didn't one of his previous victims play along to get him to drive her to her house where she got help?

The most infuriating thing is that he can say whatever he likes in court. Jill, the innocent woman minding her own business, going home to her husband, is dead and will never get to speak.

 

[Mendoza]

Jill was of Irish origins, so her first language would be Irish.

Nah, her first language would be English

Whose cigarette butts are they?

 

[Paulie11]

Do you think she may have willingly gone into the lane way with him? Is that what's important to you to find out? I understand that feeling, but I don't think the police would allege he dragged her in if he didn't. It's too risky to lie and make things up. They don't want him getting away with it.

I'm sure they'd have evidence to everything they are accusing him of. If they have footage of the car coming and going, they more than likely have footage of the two of them as well...

There's a reason they are withholding footage and information from us, and it's probably more to do with not jeopardising the case rather than deliberately withholding info from the public. Plus the judge has ordered the suppression of some information.

Are you not in Australia? You post very early in the morning and late at night if you are! You seem more on my time.

I don’t believe she went in there willingly- I have never had that concern. He could, of course, have told her there is a shortcut that way, and kind of forcibly chaperoned her down there by putting his arm around her and kind of ushering her along down there. None of this worries me insofar as the possible extent of her cooperation with him.
I just feel that we shouldn’t be treated like children and have the facts withheld from us. A society falls into dangerous territory when officials hide information. Institutions should never be hiding from and manipulating the public. If he does something like bear-hugs her and runs down the laneway with her, then why can’t that be released? That should be released- there’s nothing sensitive or disturbing about that. I’m assuming at least that much was caught by the cameras.
From what I can gather, the footage of him coming and going in his car from the laneway is taken from Ovens Street. But that laneway has two entrances:
1) a Hope Street entrance (where the (white) resident’s car is parked; and,
2) the Ovens Street entrance (with the Karate sign on the opposite side of the street to the lane)).
If you look up Google Maps you can see all of this. Now, I assume they walked down Hope Street, so I am not sure if:
1) He dragged her down the Hope Street entrance; or,
2) They were walking further down to Ovens Street when he grabbed her around there somewhere and dragged her into the lane via the Ovens Street entrance.
If he dragged her down the Ovens Street entrance to the lane, then we have confirmation that there is a cctv camera there- the one that captures him driving his car to and from the laneway around 4:30ish- but you’ll notice that footage is extremely grainy, and it only comes more sharply into focus when his headlights turn into the lane. If the attack was perpetrated around there, then I am doubtful we’d see much more than some shadows moving around which we’d be told are Jill and Bayley around 1:40am. Now, I’m not sure if that footage has been purposefully doctored by police to reduce the resolution- if that is the case, then the better footage could be clearer. It could be the case that the footage is doctored for reduced quality resolution because the attack is captured in better footage, and if they do finally release that, they don’t want it appearing too clear and scaring people, so they’d rather release a grainier, smudgier, more hazy picture. And to remain consistent, both the car entering and exiting at 4amish and the attack footage at 1:40am (heretofore unreleased), will be reduced quality footage, otherwise the public will ask: why is the 4am footage so much clearer than the 1:40am footage? So either the camera is just taking grainy images because it’s dark or the cops are fiddling with the pictures. I don’t know, though it is dark and without light cameras do tend to take bad quality footage.

Though, if Bayley did take Jill down the Hope Street entrance to the laneway, then I am not sure if there is a camera filming that street at all- we have no publicly available footage to date of Hope Street. All we have are photo-stills by the media of Hope Street around the laneway. If the Hope Street entrance to the laneway was how they entered it- and if there is Hope Street cctv footage that captures the entrance to the laneway- then that is the best footage we’ll have to capture what happened- at least in him kidnapping and dragging her down the laneway.

It sounds to me like he’s picked Jill up or bear-hugged her and ran down the laneway with her- she would have been trying to get away, though perhaps not initially realising the gravity of the situation so not protesting all that much- thinking Bayley is merely some stupid fool pulling some stupid stunt. He even could have said to her- after her protestations that her feet are sore from all of the walking in high-heels- ‘that’s alright love, I’ll just carry you the short distance home’. So he picks her up and proceeds to carry her home, though veers off into the laneway- which is where the witnesses hear ‘get out of there’. At that point he maybe suggests sex or comes onto her, she declines and seeks to walk out; he physically restrains her. I think it happened something like that because we hear no screaming- that is a concern. There could be other reasons for why there is no screaming- chief of which is police not releasing that information until after the trial, if at all, though there could be witnesses who definitely heard screams. I agree that the cops are most likely withholding information regarding these points so as not to jeopardise the trial. I think we have not to date had all of the witness testimony publicly released. So I think there is more evidence to fill in the gaps to come. All of this kind of detail should be released; it’s not harmful to the memory of Jill.

 

[Angeline]

I agree that the cops are most likely withholding information regarding these points so as not to jeopardise the trial.

Yes, that's what I think too.

Here's another article about the trial:
http://www.[link removed].au/news/jill-meagher-trial/

 

[Paulie11]

He didn't drive there. That's why he walked home to get the white astra (and that's why there's a gap of a few hours while Jill was left in the lane).


Edited to add:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...n-a-fateful-path/story-fnat79vb-1226598588787

He used a taxi to go back to Coburg from the city after his girlfriend left him and went home, then he used another taxi to go to Brunswick, using another taxi to return home after he had killed Jill. Then he picked up a car that his girlfriend used, an Astra, and drove back to where he picked up Jill's body and wernt to Gisborne.

I think also when the words 'Get out of there' were heard, that he was likely going through one of Jill's bags. MOO

It is 2.48kms from Victoria Street to Harding Street, where i believe Bayley lived; and 2.17 from Hope Street to Harding Street (all according to Google Maps). I doubt Bayley walked that distance, twice. I have not read anywhere that he caught taxis to and from. Do you have a source, KG1?

 

[Paulie11]

Ok this is going to sound really obvious. They have footage of the car going to and from the lane way.. So they must have footage of him dragging her in. I think I said this earlier... I also think they have footage of the attack.

Any google earth pics of the lane way with a shot of a camera at the end that could've captured it? Also who's to say he didn't just drag her in after the attack, and actually did the attack in ovens street? That's where I always assumed the attack happened...

This has probably been touched on already though.

Very good point. We all assumed the attack happened in the laneway, though it could have happpened in Ovens Street, and he then put Jill in the laneway to hide her. If this is the case, then the whole attack could be captured by the Ovens Street cctv footage which captures him driving his car in and out of the laneway at 4am. Also, there could be other cctv cameras filming Ovens Street, footage from which has not been publicly released.
As someone else said, maybe 'get out of there' was said by a neighbour referring to his coming back at 4am and making some noise- telling him to get out of the lane. So maybe it was not during the attack. Though, the msm reports have made it seem as if that came from Jill at the time of the attack.