GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[Ozelulu]

I just can't believe that she would say "Get out of there" to someone attacking her. If some bloke was attacking me, I don't believer I would have the ability to find any words, I would just scream and scream and scream some more. That's also assuming my mouth wasn't covered up and I still had the chance to scream. It just strikes me as odd.

I agree English would be her first language but she would have a heavy accent. I worked with a lot of Irish people several years back and it can be a difficult accent to understand sometimes.

I also agree that there is a lot more CCTV footage to still come out. I'm sure the police are saving it for the trial.

 

[Paulie11]

I am suspecting that the 'get out of there' is the least bit credible and useful piece of information to emanate from the lane. I think there are other witnesses who heard what was said, yelled, screamed down there, and it is not publicly released. Although, if someone did hear some sustained yelling/screaming, then surely they would have called the cops- unless they had a look around, it was dark, saw nothing, the yelling/screaming/loud chatter stopped, so they assumed the people moved on and didn't call the cops.

If it was only the asian couple who heard voices, then i think what happened is Bayley lifted her up and carried her to the laneway, while there, she said, wtf are you doing, i'm going home, he prevented her from going home, the conversation became heated and elevated in tone, bayley got concerned people will hear so he put his hands around her neck to stop her from screaming and alerting others. if there is no further witness testimony from the laneway, this would explain why there is not anyone hearing anything more, because, otherwise, she surely would have screamed and someone would have heard it. even think about the asian couple- it has not been publicly released that they heard screams, that's odd in the least- that they heard someone saying get out of there, perhaps drunk, perhaps muffled, though no one screaming. How can there be an attack without screaming? Unless Jill became overcome with fear and could not scream, or unless the prick tightened his hands around her throat and prevented her screaming.

 

[Jmbr]

I just can't believe that she would say "Get out of there" to someone attacking her. If some bloke was attacking me, I don't believer I would have the ability to find any words, I would just scream and scream and scream some more. That's also assuming my mouth wasn't covered up and I still had the chance to scream. It just strikes me as odd.

I agree English would be her first language but she would have a heavy accent. I worked with a lot of Irish people several years back and it can be a difficult accent to understand sometimes.

I also agree that there is a lot more CCTV footage to still come out. I'm sure the police are saving it for the trial.

I think her accent would be fairly watered down. She's lived in aus for a while, when she was little she lived there. She'd have an accent but probably not as much as a typical Irish person. Toms isn't that strong. Would be interesting to hear her brother talk. If it is strong then the people who overheard her would have to have picked up on her accent and know it was her. If not maybe they can't say for sure who it was.

 

[inkpink]

I am suspecting that the 'get out of there' is the least bit credible and useful piece of information to emanate from the lane. I think there are other witnesses who heard what was said, yelled, screamed down there, and it is not publicly released. Although, if someone did hear some sustained yelling/screaming, then surely they would have called the cops- unless they had a look around, it was dark, saw nothing, the yelling/screaming/loud chatter stopped, so they assumed the people moved on and didn't call the cops.

If it was only the asian couple who heard voices, then i think what happened is Bayley lifted her up and carried her to the laneway, while there, she said, wtf are you doing, i'm going home, he prevented her from going home, the conversation became heated and elevated in tone, bayley got concerned people will hear so he put his hands around her neck to stop her from screaming and alerting others. if there is no further witness testimony from the laneway, this would explain why there is not anyone hearing anything more, because, otherwise, she surely would have screamed and someone would have heard it. even think about the asian couple- it has not been publicly released that they heard screams, that's odd in the least- that they heard someone saying get out of there, perhaps drunk, perhaps muffled, though no on screaming. How can there be an attack without screaming? Unless Jill became overcome with fear and could not scream, or unless the prick tightened his hands around her throat and prevented her screaming.

I think someone else (A tenant) has yelled out "get out of there" in reaction to the initial noise coming from the lane from AB's attack on Jill and that's the comment that the aforementioned witness heard.

I think he deliberately disabled her larynx to stop her from being able to scream out and I think he did that almost immediately. I have the terrible sense that it wasn't as simple as him strangling her and then raping her. If she is deceased is it still classed as rape or is it interfering with a corpse? However I guess she could have been unconscious thus it would still be regarded as rape.

 

[Scoobysnack]

I actually was around this area this morning & thought of you Paulie11
I walked in Jill's footsteps and did take a few photos ( will come back and post... in about an hr, bout to have dinner!)

 

[Paulie11]

I think someone else (A tenant) has yelled out "get out of there" in reaction to the initial noise coming from the lane from AB's attack on Jill and that's the comment that the aforementioned witness heard.

I think he deliberately disabled her larynx to stop her from being able to scream out and I think he did that almost immediately. I have the terrible sense that it wasn't as simple as him strangling her and then raping her. If she is deceased is it still classed as rape or is it interfering with a corpse? However I guess she could have been unconscious thus it would still be regarded as rape.

I think he told her to shut up or he'll choke her- after applying pressure to her neck/throat, she became aware that he can kill her, so she kept quiet. Then he raped her while she was conscious. I am not sure why he killed her after.

You cannot disable someones larynx as you suggest. It's not as if you can crush the voicebox though leave the airways just fine for breathing. What are you suggesting, that Bayley had the foresight that he'll just crush her voicebox, disable her screams, but leave her breathing, rape her, then send her on her way home? That's highly improbable. It would be difficult for a surgeon to do that let alone bayley at near 2am in a dark alley. His usual MO is to use a knife against the throat- this time maybe he did the same routine- we don't know. It was dark, after all, he could have just grabbed her from behind in a semi-wrestling hold, and pointed his hand into her back (even his mobile) and said, i have a gun/knife, move and i'll kill you. That could have been enough to scare her into silence.

Maybe he has a choking fetish that went too far (that would explain why he is denying murder)- we don't know. I don't like speculating about these things because of the obvious disturbing nature of it all, so i'll stop here, and it is paramount that the police release the details so we know and don't speculate. Anything could have happened. we'll just have to wait for the trial, and hopefully the release of details thereafter.

 

[Paulie11]

Thanks Scoobysnack- photos will be great. The Google Maps images are dated.

 

[inkpink]

I think he told her to shut up or he'll choke her- after applying pressure to her neck/throat, she became aware that he can kill her, so she kept quiet. Then he raped her while she was conscious. I am not sure why he killed her after.

You cannot disable someones larynx as you suggest. It's not as if you can crush the voicebox though leave their airways just fine for breathing. What are you suggesting, that Bayley had the foresight that he'll just crush her voicebox, disable her screams, but leave her breathing, rape her, then send her on her way home? That's highly ridiculous. It would be difficult for a surgeon to do that let alone bayley at near 2am in a dark alley. His usual MO is to use a knife against the throat- this time maybe he did the same routine- we don't know. Maybe he has a choking fetish that went too far- we don't know. I don't like speculating about these things, so i'll stop here, and it is paramount that the police release the details so we know and don't speculate. Anything could have happened. we'll just have to wait for the trial, and hopefully the release of details thereafter.

Yes maybe I have watched too much CSI........I did think that he had done exactly that but then after he had raped her he then strangled her with the complete intention of killing her.

However I should know my medical facts before moulding my opinion!!:facepalm:

 

[Blessed]

I think that a neighbour's heard a comotion and yelled get out of there. I'm inclined to think this has been perhaps reported this way on purpose. (I.e. With the absence of any other witness hearing anything)

I also think that Bayley has strangled her unconscious, raped her then murdered her. I just don't think that its possible he could commit 3 rapes in a short amount of time with a conscious probably struggling Jill (she did injure him which proves their was atleast some fight put up)

 

[fruity]

I agree, Blessed. I think she must have been unconscious when he raped her. I think if she was struggling there would have been more evidence in the laneway.

 

[Paulie11]

Yes maybe I have watched too much CSI........I did think that he had done exactly that but then after he had raped her he then strangled her with the complete intention of killing her.

However I should know my medical facts before moulding my opinion!!:facepalm:

I personally don't believe bayley intended to kill her- he has form and there's no killing before. He could obviously just begin it now, though i doubt it. I reckon something just went wrong and he choked too hard or too long and she died. I just don't see why he would kill her- he's a rapist, though not a killer.

People get incensed when it is said that he did not intend to kill her, though it was just an accident within the course of committing the rape. I can see that point of view completely- people do not want to give the benefit of the doubt to such a vile criminal. But premeditated murder usually involves things like planning to go to someone’s house, with a gun, to shoot them dead. Things like that. Bayley didn’t plan anything of the sort- not that we can reasonably ascertain. We can just assume he was out for sex, which in his pathetic case, usually means rape. I’m confused as to how the death came about, though I doubt he intended it. You see, it’s always possible he wanted to murder- I’m not ruling that out by any means; he could have just had a brainwave a few weeks ago that he’ll like to murder someone. That’s possible. And now, in contrast to the truth, he’s playing the sorry card in attempts to elicit sympathy. I have personally bought into that aspect of possibilities- that he is sorry for her death and genuinely didn't mean it, as difficult as it might be to believe such a low life. Now, if that is wrong, well, I guess we’ll never really know. I like to hope that Jill’s murder was an accident, because it kind of restores my faith in humanity a bit- to know that Bayley didn’t intend to kill her. If he did, then that’s even worse and i struggle to contemplate that prospect. I think who is instrumental in this line of inquiry is his girlfriend- she would know his character. Though even that might be useless as it is usually the closest who know the least. So in that case we're left with previous victims- they'll truly know. I think it's important to note that Bayley has a kind of split reaction to all of this- he is sorry for what happened, he has bought into the public reaction of it all- and i like to think it is genuine; but i also assume that it's possible that he can be out with mates and boast about something like this: 'i raped and killed this ***** once'. Now, the latter is distressing, though i do not by any means rule it out of Bayley. Had Bayley not been caught, i don't know which way he would have gone- and i think it is impossible, at this premature stage, to tell, for it would require time for bayley to process what happened- and given his environmental influences- he might go either way. That is, if he had mates reinforcing the negative interpretation of women (misogyny, as an attitude, is central to harm against women), then bayley could have hardened into that attitude and gone on to become a serial rapist/murderer. Though if bayley had influences around who stressed that what happened to jill was bad, and be believed it, then he could have had this as the sorriest day of his life and moved on and regretted it. So to just presume he intended to kill her and he is a bad apple is true to an extent, though it's not the whole story. It just all depends. So i like to believe he still has some decency (not to 'intend' kill someone)- a possibility perhaps reinforced by the fact many people offered testimony that bayley was a good bloke- despite being a very damaged person in many ways.
This is a difficult thing to say, and i would not say it to victims.


Whatever the case is, I think it makes zero difference to the length of incarceration, which should be life, for the natural duration.

 

[inkpink]

I personally don't believe bayley intended to kill her- he has form and there's no killing before. He could obviously just begin it now, though i doubt it. I reckon something just went wrong and he choked too hard or too long and she died. I just don't see why he would kill her- he's a rapist, though not a killer.

People get incensed when it is said that he did not intend to kill her, though it was just an accident within the course of committing the rape. I can see that point of view completely- people do not want to give the benefit of the doubt to such a vile criminal. But premeditated murder usually involves things like planning to go to someone’s house, with a gun, to shoot them dead. Things like that. Bayley didn’t plan anything of the sort- not that we can reasonably ascertain. We can just assume he was out for sex, which in his pathetic case, usually means rape. I’m confused as to how the death came about, though I doubt he intended it. You see, it’s always possible he wanted to murder- I’m not ruling that out by any means; he could have just had a brainwave a few weeks ago that he’ll like to murder someone. That’s possible. And now he’s playing the sorry card in attempts to elicit sympathy. I have personally bought into that aspect of possibilities. Now, if that is wrong, well, I guess we’ll never really know. I like to hope that Jill’s murder was an accident, because it kind of restores my faith in humanity a bit- to know that Bayley didn’t intend to kill her. If he did, then that’s even worse. I think who is instrumental in this line of inquiry is his girlfriend- she would know his character. Though even that might be useless as it is usually the closest who know the least.

Whatever the case is, I think it makes zero difference to the length of incarceration, which should be life, for the natural duration.

I don't believe that he went out that night with the intention of killing her hence having to go back home to get a shovel however I do believe that within the act itself and to try and cover his crime (He would have thought that Jill could identify him) he has then chosen to strangle her with the intent of murder. The Pathologist said "Ms Meagher was strangled with “sustained force''.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...new-cctv-footage/story-fnat79vb-1226595870138

Also AB has stated (probably crap though) that after he strangled her he then apologised, so if this was the case then he has strangled her after raping her.
Although I guess he could have strangled her whilst raping her which would probably make more sense.

DETECTIVE: Um how did you – how did you strangle her?

BAYLEY:With my hands.

DETECTIVE:With your hands. And once that had happened, what did you do?

(interview interrupted by knock at door, then resumes)

BAYLEY:I didn’t run.

DETECTIVE:You didn’t run?

BAYLEYstarts to cry) That’s not it man. I actually apologised.

DETECTIVE:To her?

BAYLEY:But I didn’t run. I didn’t – didn’t know what to do. It’s a horrible feeling man.

DETECTIVE: Yeah.

BAYLEY:I can’t imagine how – how she felt, but I know how I felt. It’s not nice man, its not nice. And all I thought was what have I done? That’s all I thought. That was the thought in my head, what have I done after I said sorry. I didn’t know what else to say, man. I don’t know what else to say.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...ew-amid-new-cctv/story-fnat79vb-1226595890685

 

[Angeline]

I think there's a chance it could've been premeditated. He knew he'd be going back to jail for a long time if he raped again. The police are alleging he killed her as she was the only witness.

One of his previous victims and another woman who claimed she was threatened by him (she was walking with friends and fell behind the group - he said something about nunchucks), both said something along the lines of they had no doubt he would kill them given the chance. I wonder if they will testify.

The only thing imo that would cancel out the premeditated part was the clumsiness afterwards, to the point of running out of petrol.

 

[fruity]

I personally don't believe bayley intended to kill her- he has form and there's no killing before. He could obviously just begin it now, though i doubt it. I reckon something just went wrong and he choked too hard or too long and she died. I just don't see why he would kill her- he's a rapist, though not a killer.

People get incensed when it is said that he did not intend to kill her, though it was just an accident within the course of committing the rape. I can see that point of view completely- people do not want to give the benefit of the doubt to such a vile criminal. But premeditated murder usually involves things like planning to go to someone’s house, with a gun, to shoot them dead. Things like that. Bayley didn’t plan anything of the sort- not that we can reasonably ascertain. We can just assume he was out for sex, which in his pathetic case, usually means rape. I’m confused as to how the death came about, though I doubt he intended it. You see, it’s always possible he wanted to murder- I’m not ruling that out by any means; he could have just had a brainwave a few weeks ago that he’ll like to murder someone. That’s possible. And now, in contrast to the truth, he’s playing the sorry card in attempts to elicit sympathy. I have personally bought into that aspect of possibilities- that he is sorry for her death and genuinely didn't mean it, as difficult as it might be to believe such a low life. Now, if that is wrong, well, I guess we’ll never really know. I like to hope that Jill’s murder was an accident, because it kind of restores my faith in humanity a bit- to know that Bayley didn’t intend to kill her. If he did, then that’s even worse. I think who is instrumental in this line of inquiry is his girlfriend- she would know his character. Though even that might be useless as it is usually the closest who know the least. So in that case we're left with previous victims- they'll truly know. I think it's important to note that Bayley has a kind of split reaction to all of this- he is sorry for what happened, he has bought into the public reaction of it all- and i like to think it is genuine; but i also assume that it's possible that he can be out with mates and boast about something like this: 'i raped and killed this ***** once'. Now, the latter is distressing, though i do not by any means rule it out of Bayley. Had Bayley not been caught, i don't know which way he would have gone- and i think it is impossible, at this premature stage, to tell, for it would require time for bayley to process what happened- and given his environmental influences- he might go either way. That is, if he had mates reinforcing the '**** *****es' interpretation, then bayley could have hardened into that attitude and gone on to become a serial rapist/murderer. Though if bayley had influences around who stressed that what happened to jill was bad, and be believed it, then he could have had this as the sorriest day of his life and moved on and regretted it. So to just presum he intended to kill her and he is a bad apple is true to an extent, though it's not the whole story. It just all depends.

Whatever the case is, I think it makes zero difference to the length of incarceration, which should be life, for the natural duration.

Re the bolded: he is indeed a killer. He used to be 'just' a rapist. Now he is a murderer and rapist.

The bottom line is that your understanding of premeditation is problematic.

You can not accidentally strangle someone the way you suggested. One of the news reports linked here said that after they lose consciousness you have to apply pressure and keep hold for another 3 minutes to kill them.

Dr Matthew Lynch (the pathologist who testified) said Jill was strangled with sustained force.

He said he discovered haemorrhages and bruising on Ms Meagher's neck along with bleeding in neck muscles and fractures to her larynx.

Dr Lynch said such injuries suggested manual compression involving sustained force.

Having his hands around her neck, crushing the life out of her for at least 3 minutes means it was not accidental at all. He intended to kill her. It doesn't matter if he planned it because planning is not a necessary prerequisite to the intent to murder. A few seconds is all it takes to change a killing from manslaughter to murder.

 

[Scoobysnack]

O.k so as I said a few posts up ... I was on Sydney rd this morning.
Here are some photos, eerily enough it was similar weather this morning as how it was when this horrible crime was committed.

O.k so this one was mainly for you paulie as your thoughts are Jill may usually have turned down Sparta pl... and the CCTV footage shows her kind of turning left.

I don't feel she would normally walk down there, it had a few empty shops ....and at 9am on a Sat morn was pretty quiet, it did have a cool coffee shop in the back corner though , but that was it.
I would not walk down there at 1:30 am it would be far more secluded & scary as opposed to Sydney rd at that time of night.

I feel it shows how effected by the alcohol she was and a bit 'wonky" in those bloody heels .... I wish she popped on her flats to walk home.

 

[fruity]

I just cross posted with inpink and Angeline, sorry. I just repeated a lot of what they said.

 

[fruity]

Here is a video of Jill's Uncle, who is still living in Ireland - for those wondering about accents.

Jillian Meagher's Family Statement - YouTube

 

[Brightbird]

I think he told her to shut up or he'll choke her- after applying pressure to her neck/throat, she became aware that he can kill her, so she kept quiet. Then he raped her while she was conscious. I am not sure why he killed her after.

Snipped.

It's alleged that the motive for murder was to kill the only witness and protect himself

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bayleys-wish-for-his-own-death-penalty-20130312-2fx8i.html

 

[Scoobysnack]

Guys can I get a hand with pics? I have made an album.... just not sure what I am doing wrong eeep! sorry!!

 

[Alice Bernadette]

I do believe that Bayley intended to kill Jill. As has been stated it takes a long time to choke someone to death. Also this guy has a lot of anger and hatred of women to do what he does. Those tears he cried are crocodile tears.