GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5

[SisterWolf]

What we need in society is to disband masculinity and machismo, then crimes against women will plummet. Crimes against women are about power and control- and bragging to your mates about it. If you get rid of the bragging to your mates part, then we’ll lose 90% of crimes against women in a jiffy- and all wars, too.

Whilst it may be partially responsible for some crimes against women, I think a far more realistic reason is that some men just can't control their emotions. They're emotionally retarded. I was not surprised one bit when I read that the landlady and his girlfriend had described him as "jealous and possessive". Men who possess these traits are Dangerous with a capital D and any woman who comes up against this behaviour should have alarm bells ringing immediately - there's no telling how far they'll go or what will make them snap. They view women as property, their property. I went out with a guy like this once - he raised his fist to me and threatened to punch me in the face on several occasions, even in front of several mutual friends. They can't control any emotions they have and they believe anything they feel and do is justifiable. This could be due to a number of factors, hence the nature v nurture debate. It's still no excuse for their behaviour.

 

[Paulie11]

Whilst it may be partially responsible for some crimes against women, I think a far more realistic reason is that some men just can't control their emotions. They're emotionally retarded. I was not surprised one bit when I read that the landlady and his girlfriend had described him as "jealous and possessive". Men who possess these traits are Dangerous with a capital D and any woman who comes up against this behaviour should have alarm bells ringing immediately - there's no telling how far they'll go or what will make them snap. They view women as property, their property. I went out with a guy like this once - he raised his fist to me and threatened to punch me in the face on several occasions, even in front of several mutual friends. They can't control any emotions they have and they believe anything they feel and do is justifiable. This could be due to a number of factors, hence the nature v nurture debate. It's still no excuse for their behaviour.

The observers indicate the public. Masculinity, machismo is all about appearances and facade- you can't be seen to be weak. Bragging to your mates is also about keeping up appearances. If men can drop their facades, then the world's problems would end that instant. People are driven to lengths in order to keep up appearances, and violence against women is, in no small part, driven by this need, in the male, to appear to be stronger than the female. Even in one on one situations, the female serves as the public observer, and if the male does not keep up appearances, then the female is party to his emasculation. That bayley had 'gym arm's was something none of us- the observing public- failed to notice.

cultures make people. macho cultures make macho men. macho men hit women. that is the formula damaging society by creating damaged (macho) men who damage women. if we stop the macho facade, then we stop the violence. it is a tale of gym arms and high-heels, the archetypes.

 

[Paulie11]

think about bayley. if bayley had called his mate at 2am to explain what had happened, what do you think he would have said:
1) mate, i raped this chick and i killed her; or,
2) mate, i picked up this chick and was rooting her, but she died on me, come and help me.

these are two very different responses. the first indicates he could not get the girl, so it is weakness in the eyes of the macho personality; the latter indicates that bayley was 'the man' and picked up this chick with his 'gym arms', though, unfortunately for bayley, bad luck intervened and this tragedy befell him where she died on him. appearances are destructive. just ask freud about the defence mechanisms we have against the truth.

 

[Angeline]

The only time I read the specifics of the rape charges was when the original article was copied to this thread with a link. When I clicked on the link, it had changed. Yes, the media have edited it.

Yes, he fooled the parole board and I hope that's really going to make things difficult for him at trial.

Paulie, I don't understand the bit about bragging to mates? I haven't read anywhere that he's done that. If anything he's been trying to pretend that he's a gentleman, to cover up the truth.

 

[SisterWolf]

I'm afraid I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that point Paulie, and I most certainly don't take on board anything Freud has to say. Jung was on the right track, but Freud was right off it. Personally I think Western psychiatry is a crock of ****. I've studied both Western and Eastern (dharma) (Science of the mind) (Buddhism) whatever you want to call it, and unlike Western psychiatry, it's completely logical and effective, which is why western psychiatrists are now slowly adopting some of the principals into their own cognitive behaviour and therapy sessions. Unfortunately our legal system only recognizes and accepts testimony and evaluation from Western psychiatry though, so in this case, I am pretty sure that whoever assesses Bayley will most likely agree that he fits with a psychopathic personality disorder, whether you think it's a fad or not. Unfortunately for Bayley, a personality disorder doesn't constitute a mental illness and therefore can't be used as a defence to get off a murder charge. What a shame!

 

[Paulie11]

Paulie, I don't understand the bit about bragging to mates? I haven't read anywhere that he's done that. If anything he's been trying to pretend that he's a gentleman, to cover up the truth.

mate, i have heard of men who frequent brothels and refer to that practice as 'visiting the girlfriend'. That kind of practice of being loose with the truth is par for course for macho men like bayley who need to be bragging about something or other, otherwise they don’t know who they are. I have zero doubt that bayley has referred to his rape victims as ‘some ***** who didn’t want it at first, but wanted it after I slapped her around a bit’. That kind of loose talk is par for course amongst men. I don’t blame them- I blame the culture which breeds such men. You cannot blame these kind of men- rightly labelled victims of masculine cultures- for what they are bred to do. Our society needs to dissolve machismo, which will simultaneously dissolve misogyny, thus leaving women safe. All of these crimes against women are about reinforcing one’s ego, just like weights at the gym reinforces the ‘gym arms’. One works on the psyche, the other one works on the body.
I mean, think about the way men refer to sex with women: another notch on the belt, another feather in the cap. It’s absolutely appalling. Women are third class citizens- behind men and their cars.

 

[Paulie11]

I'm afraid I'll have to agree to disagree with you on that point Paulie, and I most certainly don't take on board anything Freud has to say. Jung was on the right track, but Freud was right off it. Personally I think Western psychiatry is a crock of ****. I've studied both Western and Eastern (dharma) (Science of the mind) (Buddhism) whatever you want to call it, and unlike Western psychiatry, it's completely logical and effective, which is why western psychiatrists are now slowly adopting some of the principals into their own cognitive behaviour and therapy sessions. Unfortunately our legal system only recognizes and accepts testimony and evaluation from Western psychiatry though, so in this case, I am pretty sure that whoever assesses Bayley will most likely agree that he fits with a psychopathic personality disorder, whether you think it's a fad or not. Unfortunately for Bayley, a personality disorder doesn't constitute a mental illness and therefore can't be used as a defence to get off a murder charge. What a shame!

i think the psychiatrist will find bayley has some sexual deviance. i am not sure how psychopathic he will rate.

 

[SisterWolf]

i think the psychiatrist will find bayley has some sexual deviance. i am not sure how psychopathic he will rate.

I think you're down-playing Bayley's psyche to the extreme here.
If you read what he'd done and said to his previous victims I think you'd have more of an idea of just how depraved this guy is.

He is an exceptionally VIOLENT SERIAL RAPIST who has strangled an innocent woman to death. He has previously shown no remorse for his crimes. To say he is merely a sexual deviant is woefully inadequate IMO

 

[CuriousGrace]

I thought the phone call to his workmate was prior to the attack on Jill. It was 1:20am I think... Correct me if I am wrong.

It was before. It makes you think what would have happened if he picked up that call.

 

[Paulie11]

I think you're down-playing Bayley's psyche to the extreme here.
If you read what he'd done and said to his previous victims I think you'd have more of an idea of just how depraved this guy is.

He is an exceptionally VIOLENT SERIAL RAPIST who has strangled an innocent woman to death. He has previously shown no remorse for his crimes. To say he is merely a sexual deviant is woefully inadequate IMO

i am living in victoria- i do not have publicly available information about his previous crimes, outside of the little that was published regarding bayley's history. i am aware that an interstate women's weekly publication detailed his explolits, though it was not made available here as per sub judice. so don't blame me if i am downplaying bayley, and maybe the reason why i am HARPING on about the public release of information is so that i am informed and do not have false assessments of people. i would rather the greater release of information, possibly all of it, precisely so that people are not misinformed.

even so, i don't think bayley's sexual depravity, deviance, perversion- disgusting as it might be (and don't forgot, i don't know it because i am not LEGALLY allowed to read JACK <modsnip>)- necessarily constitutes psychopathy. he was twisted in bed- doesn't make him a psycho. in fact, if bayley had a free pass at the local brothel, he would never have offended again in his life- no one would have been hurt- and everyone would have KEPT ON THINKING bayley was a TOP BLOKE AS THEY ALL THOUGHT ANYWAY INCLUDING HIS GIRLFRIEND; though society would baulk at paying for bayley's brothel visits; so now we have to deal with not only rape victims, but a murder victim, too. the hypocrisy in society astounds me. they don't release information publicly- then we get twisted-<modsnip>committing gross crimes, lax laws, no one is MEDICALLY dealing with his sexual perversion/appetite, but now everyone sees it fit to label him a psycho, as if that helps anything.

 

[Paulie11]

Today is Saint Patrick's Day. Today was to be the day when Bayley's parole ended. Such Is Life.

 

[Eireann]

Regarding the 'get out of there' comment.

What if AB pushed/grabbed Jill into the alley, remembers she was using her phone further up the road, and that she possibly put it back into her handbag. He then decides he needs it in his possession rather than hers incase she called emergency services/someone else.

'Get out of there' could simply be - get out of my bag. Spoken by a woman who figured she was being robbed, not anything more sinister at this point.

 

[SisterWolf]

i am living in victoria- i do not have publicly available information about his previous crimes, outside of the little that was published regarding bayley's history. i am aware that an interstate women's weekly publication detailed his explolits, though it was not made available here as per sub judice. so don't blame me if i am downplaying bayley, and maybe the reason why i am HARPING on about the public release of information is so that i am informed and do not have false assessments of people. i would rather the greater release of information, possibly all of it, precisely so that people are not misinformed.

even so, i don't think bayley's sexual depravity, deviance, perversion- disgusting as it might be (and don't forgot, i don't know it because i am not LEGALLY allowed to read JACK <modsnip>)- necessarily constitutes psychopathy. he was twisted in bed- doesn't make him a psycho. in fact, if bayley had a free pass at the local brothel, he would never have offended again in his life- no one would have been hurt- and everyone would have KEPT ON THINKING bayley was a TOP BLOKE AS THEY ALL THOUGHT ANYWAY INCLUDING HIS GIRLFRIEND; though society would baulk at paying for bayley's brothel visits; so now we have to deal with not only rape victims, but a murder victim, too. the hypocrisy in society astounds me. they don't release information publicly- then we get twisted-<modsnip> committing gross crimes, lax laws, no one is MEDICALLY dealing with his sexual perversion/appetite, but now everyone sees it fit to label him a psycho, as if that helps anything.

I'm also in Victoria and when Bayley was first arrested, his previous convictions along with judges sentencing remarks (which were in complete contradiction to the inadequate sentences he got) were publicly available as they were public record. Granted you had to know where to look, and they were scanned images of newspaper articles. This was all removed and suppressed by the magistrate a few days later, however plenty of people saw them, including myself. It is very apparent from the details of his previous convictions and the judges sentencing remarks that Bayley is not just a sexual deviant with a compulsion to get himself off through deviant behaviour of the sexual variety. Bayley's aim is to cause his victims as much pain as he can. I guess without having seen these previous accounts, you are getting a completely misguided interpretation of Bayley's psyche and the way he thinks. That's why I think it's imperative that a magistrate rule his previous convictions as admissable evidence in a trial, because what you've just written shows no understanding of how much this man hates women.

 

[CuriousGrace]

I think the "get out of there" comment was from a resident. It's just not something you would say as a female in a dangerous time like that.

 

[Brightbird]

Paulie11, are you suggesting that Bayley is basically a nice guy who can't control a high libido? Men with high libidos find all sorts of consentual outlets. His past offences included prostitutes, so its not just about sex. It's about power and sadism. I agree he may have issues with his masculinity but I don't think he's a 'victim' of macho culture. I think somebody else mentioned that he tries to project himself as gentleman, a protector of women. I'd be very surprised if he went bragging about rape. I'd be even more surprised if his mates went along with it. I think Bayley absolutely has a severe personality disorder which combined with sadistic sexual urges makes him one dangerous man. That kind of psychopathology develops out of much more than belonging to a macho culture.

His colleagues have described him as temperamental and as having a short fuse - so not everyone describes him as a nice guy. Do you have any evidence that everyone in his life thinks he's a "top bloke"?

 

[SisterWolf]

I think the "get out of there" comment was from a resident. It's just not something you would say as a female in a dangerous time like that.

I agree, I had the same thoughts when I read it. I can't see anyone saying this given the gravity of the situation, nor leading up to it.

 

[SisterWolf]

Totally agree Brightbird, <modsnip> His previous partner (the mother of one or more of his 4 children) had to get an AVO and move states due to how physically violent he was towards her. Nice guy? I don't think so. It's clear Bayley wants to cause women as much pain both physically, emotionally and psychologically as he possibly can. It's not just about sexual gratification and an un-controlable libido at all, in fact, that would play a very minor part of it.

 

[CuriousGrace]

I agree, I had the same thoughts when I read it. I can't see anyone saying this given the gravity of the situation, nor leading up to it.

To be honest, I think more witness statements will be released during the trial. When she first disappeared I think people did come forward and they had CCTV footage of her attack.. It was more about being able to locate her body and apprehend at the correct time once more evidence was collected. AB was probably being trailed by LE very early that week but they were presenting it a different way to the media to really encourage more witnesses to come forward. I remember the media coverage and the police very obviously had a lot more evidence than they ever let onto. You don't request the public to identity someone in CCTV footage and charge him with mutder and rape less than 48 hours later.

 

[Eireann]

I think the "get out of there" comment was from a resident. It's just not something you would say as a female in a dangerous time like that.

If this was the case, then I wonder why the person saying this hasn't come forward?

 

[CuriousGrace]

If this was the case, then I wonder why the person saying this hasn't come forward?

This witness may come up in the trial. The police may very well have spoken to this person and it has yet to be released to the public yet.