This is serious stuff Legally Brunette. Well said.:goodpost:Hi and welcome gia2
I've said this several times long ago on this thread and will repeat it again. Apart from parole board who have much to answer for, IMO, if local police had taken notice of the NZ nurse's reports, Jill may still be alive. Too late after the event praising them for such a great job in arresting AB.
Edited by me...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/7748090/Suspect-said-he-d-kill-me-says-nurse
GUILTY Australia - Jill Meagher, 29, Melbourne, 22 Sep 2012 #5
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LegallyBrunette
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This is correct, I posted the same info ages ago. It says that the accused needn't have the intent (mens rea) for murder to be convicted of the offence in the above circumstances. Thanks for posting again
Well said Sisterwolf.:goodpost:
Great to see posters speaking to the objectification of women, structured into the policies and practice within our society. These need to be challenged or our women and girls will continue to suffer these violent crimes - crimes against the well being of our society.
As one brilliant legal mind and poster said on another forum:
This is only my second post, so forgive me if this misses the mark on whatever level/s. I've been reading the conversation on this forum for many weeks now; it's felt like a way of bearing silent witness to the outrage of Jill's life being taken from her. In my world there seem few avenues for this sort of attention; I encounter curiosity, grief and avoidance in about equal measure whenever I have raised this socially, so have ceased to do so for several months now... This forum has for me been a very helpful way to encounter others concerned about Jill herself and what happened to her, but also importantly what this event has to say more broadly socially and critically how a society might meaningfully respond to prevent these particular circumstances happening again.
While we will likely never eliminate evil in the world, there does seem to be a strong case for addressing sentencing laws that allow people with lengthy histories of related crime free to continue such practices.
My query relates to how to approach this - I don't have a politician in my pocket to lobby and I live in an electorate where I doubt this would get much traction in any case... I'm a member of GetUp, but it hasn't shown interest in this case or in law and order more generally. That's probably a product of cynicism around politicians using law and order as a populist bandwagon without really addressing the inherent issues, particularly insofar as they relate to women but likely more generally...
I think consciousness raising is vital, and that is clearly taking place here and elsewhere, but I wondered about others thoughts on strategies from there? The comments over the last two posts have been especially pertinent for me in that respect. Jill is not the first nor will she be the last woman treated as though her life had no value - how to respond? The street march was wonderful and empowering, but is that it? I agree in some respects that Parliament House would have been a better destination - guess I'd best get writing to my local member after all...
While we will likely never eliminate evil in the world, there does seem to be a strong case for addressing sentencing laws that allow people with lengthy histories of related crime free to continue such practices.
My query relates to how to approach this - I don't have a politician in my pocket to lobby and I live in an electorate where I doubt this would get much traction in any case... I'm a member of GetUp, but it hasn't shown interest in this case or in law and order more generally. That's probably a product of cynicism around politicians using law and order as a populist bandwagon without really addressing the inherent issues, particularly insofar as they relate to women but likely more generally...
I think consciousness raising is vital, and that is clearly taking place here and elsewhere, but I wondered about others thoughts on strategies from there? The comments over the last two posts have been especially pertinent for me in that respect. Jill is not the first nor will she be the last woman treated as though her life had no value - how to respond? The street march was wonderful and empowering, but is that it? I agree in some respects that Parliament House would have been a better destination - guess I'd best get writing to my local member after all...
DrWatson
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Good post, Macca. A couple of points, if I may?
The problem with organizations such as GetUp is that they are inherently political, with GetUp being pretty far left of centre. So trying to get stuff achieved via that route almost instantly alienates at least half of the population just by virtue of the fact that it is perceived as a left-wing organization, whether or not that is actually the case. Same with the Greens. Or ANY political organization - so much of the population is so fed up of anything political, I doubt it would get any traction.
However, those in power and who make the decisions and the laws are .... Politicians!
The thing that controls politicians' behaviour is publicity. It is their lifeblood, the air that they breathe. And votes.
So my suggestion would be to put pressure onto politicians (as well as judges who don't appear to live in the real world, and parole boards which are so anonymous) through the use of media, rather than through political outfits like GetUp. GetUp do a lot of good work and have a lot of good ideas - but don't seem to get much done, if anything.
Cultivating a good media campaign, using professional PR consultants if necessary (which I'm not) to put pressure onto the legislators, the judiciary, the parole boards, etc MAY just have more effect.
How often, after a successful appeal by the prosecution for an inadequate sentence, for example, do we see the original sentencing judge actually reprimanded? We don't. Yet I think they should be. They should be on a warning from the Chief Justice to get real, and if they don't then they should be under threat of losing their position, due to not representing the will of the people. Many of them seem to be so wrapped up in interpretation of the words in law books and precedents that they forget they are actually there to represent the will of the people, and of the peoples' representatives, the parliament.
I have had judges as patients over the years, and apart from one, who was VERY real world and down to earth, they almost seem to live on a different planet where the interpretation of words means everything.
It was pressure from the media that resulted in the Fitzgerald Enquiry in Queensland all those years ago. Also the live cattle trade, the prisoner X saga, the NSW Labor party corruption scandals via Obeid and co, and the list goes on. Without media pressure and the threat of losing votes, politicians by their very nature won't rock any boats or the status quo.
If only a really aggressive media campaign, using 4 Corners, print media, online media, etc could be harnessed and coordinated, then MAYBE something might get done. But it would have to remain apolitical, IMHO. And it would need to be persistent and ongoing - most short term campaigns are storms in a teacup - they fizzle out and people just move on.
Starting with a Royal Commission into the whole system of parole - whether there should even be such a thing, for example - would be a good place to start, followed closely by realistic sentencing, eg taking away a lot of the options from the judges, with more predetermined and prescribed sentencing.
The fundamental problem in Jill's case is actually twofold - that AB could have been able to "game" the system in the first place in order to get out on parole, but also that parole was even an option - he should not have even been able to be eligible given his history.
The problem with organizations such as GetUp is that they are inherently political, with GetUp being pretty far left of centre. So trying to get stuff achieved via that route almost instantly alienates at least half of the population just by virtue of the fact that it is perceived as a left-wing organization, whether or not that is actually the case. Same with the Greens. Or ANY political organization - so much of the population is so fed up of anything political, I doubt it would get any traction.
However, those in power and who make the decisions and the laws are .... Politicians!
The thing that controls politicians' behaviour is publicity. It is their lifeblood, the air that they breathe. And votes.
So my suggestion would be to put pressure onto politicians (as well as judges who don't appear to live in the real world, and parole boards which are so anonymous) through the use of media, rather than through political outfits like GetUp. GetUp do a lot of good work and have a lot of good ideas - but don't seem to get much done, if anything.
Cultivating a good media campaign, using professional PR consultants if necessary (which I'm not) to put pressure onto the legislators, the judiciary, the parole boards, etc MAY just have more effect.
How often, after a successful appeal by the prosecution for an inadequate sentence, for example, do we see the original sentencing judge actually reprimanded? We don't. Yet I think they should be. They should be on a warning from the Chief Justice to get real, and if they don't then they should be under threat of losing their position, due to not representing the will of the people. Many of them seem to be so wrapped up in interpretation of the words in law books and precedents that they forget they are actually there to represent the will of the people, and of the peoples' representatives, the parliament.
I have had judges as patients over the years, and apart from one, who was VERY real world and down to earth, they almost seem to live on a different planet where the interpretation of words means everything.
It was pressure from the media that resulted in the Fitzgerald Enquiry in Queensland all those years ago. Also the live cattle trade, the prisoner X saga, the NSW Labor party corruption scandals via Obeid and co, and the list goes on. Without media pressure and the threat of losing votes, politicians by their very nature won't rock any boats or the status quo.
If only a really aggressive media campaign, using 4 Corners, print media, online media, etc could be harnessed and coordinated, then MAYBE something might get done. But it would have to remain apolitical, IMHO. And it would need to be persistent and ongoing - most short term campaigns are storms in a teacup - they fizzle out and people just move on.
Starting with a Royal Commission into the whole system of parole - whether there should even be such a thing, for example - would be a good place to start, followed closely by realistic sentencing, eg taking away a lot of the options from the judges, with more predetermined and prescribed sentencing.
The fundamental problem in Jill's case is actually twofold - that AB could have been able to "game" the system in the first place in order to get out on parole, but also that parole was even an option - he should not have even been able to be eligible given his history.
I agree with Dr Watson and others. We should try use online social media to our advantage and lobby for some change.
Would anyone be interested in starting a targeted online petition?
I know it sounds like a bucket of more nothing, and it might very well turn out to be just that, but if done correctly, it could actually gain some awareness.
I remember not too long ago some Australian gay marriage lobby group advertised a campaign to "Write to your Local MP". I can't find the link now unfortunately but I remember it being very effective and it garnered a couple hundred thousand responses.
Basically it was a well designed page which allowed the user to firstly select their federal division (and hence their MP), and after they filled in their details (name, postcode etc), the user would be able to submit a pre-written letter (a very good one might I add) regarding gay marriage which would then be sent directly to the MP's ministerial email.
It would have taken a person a solid 10 seconds flat to finish the whole thing start to finish. Maybe 20 if they had to find out what federal division they were in.
If we did the same thing, with a well written letter outlining the problems, and what we want done about it. I'm sure it *might* be a good campaign.
I'm thinking though, instead of the letter just being sent to the Federal MP, it also gets sent to the person's Federal Senator, State MP, etc, and a maybe some media organisations as well. So one single person filling out one form which takes about 10 seconds will reach around 5 emails or more in one go. (Whether or not this is considered spam, I wouldn't have a clue). But if someone sues us, free exposure right?
There are 150 MPs. If each MP received a mere 100 emails each about this, we can hope they would start to at least talk about it and maybe just one MP with a spine and kick up a stink about it on the floor. Who knows someone in Parliament might even take up our cause and use their contacts in the media to start some trouble.
150 MPs multiplied by a crappy 100 emails means = 15,000 signatures on this petition but I'm sure we can do at least 500,000. This is an issue that affects everyone. We send enough of these to the major media networks, maybe they too will run a story and cause people to demand change.
I think getting the petition/page/letter online would be fairly easy/cheap. We just need someone that can write well and a smart IT person who can rig the form to send to specified emails. Finding out the emails of each MP and Senator at a state and federal level would be somewhat time consuming but all that information is readily available on the internet.
The sort of hard part is getting awareness for this page, but that shouldn't be too hard either, even on a $0 budget.
Check out that RIP Jill Meagher facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/ripjillmeagher?fref=ts this page has almost 300,000 followers! It would take a 5 minutes to contact the admin of this page to get them to post our link (100% certain they'd agree). and then almost immediately we'd be exposed to some 300,000 people. And that's just 1 single page.
I just had a look and coincidentally enough the latest is of a facebook campgain titled "I want Tougher Sentences Introduced For Violent Crimes In Australia". Even that page has some 5000 likes but sadly it has almost no content and won't reach anyone.
And herein lies another point, the letter can't just be another abstract bit of reactionary outrage, it needs to be clear about what the problem is, highlight some examples and give MP's a clear course of what we want to see happen. It can't just be "lets hang all rapists!!!". The make or break part will be the contents of the letter.
The facts are unfortunately on our side. I personally did not know that it was possible for a person to be guilty of rape 16 times, and STILL be allowed back on the streets. It's mind boggling. Most Australians won't know this either, we need to let them know.
In the age of the internet, it is impossible to predict what will catch on and what won't, (remember Kony, SlutWalk?) but there's really only one way to find out.
Would anyone be interested in starting a targeted online petition?
I know it sounds like a bucket of more nothing, and it might very well turn out to be just that, but if done correctly, it could actually gain some awareness.
I remember not too long ago some Australian gay marriage lobby group advertised a campaign to "Write to your Local MP". I can't find the link now unfortunately but I remember it being very effective and it garnered a couple hundred thousand responses.
Basically it was a well designed page which allowed the user to firstly select their federal division (and hence their MP), and after they filled in their details (name, postcode etc), the user would be able to submit a pre-written letter (a very good one might I add) regarding gay marriage which would then be sent directly to the MP's ministerial email.
It would have taken a person a solid 10 seconds flat to finish the whole thing start to finish. Maybe 20 if they had to find out what federal division they were in.
If we did the same thing, with a well written letter outlining the problems, and what we want done about it. I'm sure it *might* be a good campaign.
I'm thinking though, instead of the letter just being sent to the Federal MP, it also gets sent to the person's Federal Senator, State MP, etc, and a maybe some media organisations as well. So one single person filling out one form which takes about 10 seconds will reach around 5 emails or more in one go. (Whether or not this is considered spam, I wouldn't have a clue). But if someone sues us, free exposure right?
There are 150 MPs. If each MP received a mere 100 emails each about this, we can hope they would start to at least talk about it and maybe just one MP with a spine and kick up a stink about it on the floor. Who knows someone in Parliament might even take up our cause and use their contacts in the media to start some trouble.
150 MPs multiplied by a crappy 100 emails means = 15,000 signatures on this petition but I'm sure we can do at least 500,000. This is an issue that affects everyone. We send enough of these to the major media networks, maybe they too will run a story and cause people to demand change.
I think getting the petition/page/letter online would be fairly easy/cheap. We just need someone that can write well and a smart IT person who can rig the form to send to specified emails. Finding out the emails of each MP and Senator at a state and federal level would be somewhat time consuming but all that information is readily available on the internet.
The sort of hard part is getting awareness for this page, but that shouldn't be too hard either, even on a $0 budget.
Check out that RIP Jill Meagher facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/ripjillmeagher?fref=ts this page has almost 300,000 followers! It would take a 5 minutes to contact the admin of this page to get them to post our link (100% certain they'd agree). and then almost immediately we'd be exposed to some 300,000 people. And that's just 1 single page.
I just had a look and coincidentally enough the latest is of a facebook campgain titled "I want Tougher Sentences Introduced For Violent Crimes In Australia". Even that page has some 5000 likes but sadly it has almost no content and won't reach anyone.
And herein lies another point, the letter can't just be another abstract bit of reactionary outrage, it needs to be clear about what the problem is, highlight some examples and give MP's a clear course of what we want to see happen. It can't just be "lets hang all rapists!!!". The make or break part will be the contents of the letter.
The facts are unfortunately on our side. I personally did not know that it was possible for a person to be guilty of rape 16 times, and STILL be allowed back on the streets. It's mind boggling. Most Australians won't know this either, we need to let them know.
In the age of the internet, it is impossible to predict what will catch on and what won't, (remember Kony, SlutWalk?) but there's really only one way to find out.
marlywings
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Just thought I'd pop this in here for those who may not have read it.
Our rules re...
Organized Efforts- Email Campaigns-Boycotts-Petitions:
Obviously members are free to take up any and all causes that are important to them in an effort to bring about change. But using Websleuths as a platform to promote organized efforts such as email campaigns, boycotts, letter writing,etc. are strictly forbidden without the consent of the forum owners.
Further info is available on the following link...
Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Our rules re...
Organized Efforts- Email Campaigns-Boycotts-Petitions:
Obviously members are free to take up any and all causes that are important to them in an effort to bring about change. But using Websleuths as a platform to promote organized efforts such as email campaigns, boycotts, letter writing,etc. are strictly forbidden without the consent of the forum owners.
Further info is available on the following link...
Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
fair enough not to use websleuths...plenty of options on facebook though...suggest we take it off-line from here.
Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie (this is my first post!) but wanted to thank you for providing such insight into this case. I've been lurking for a long time and have had so many 'what it's' as well. This case has affected me beyond belief, I've trailed through all the CCTV footage and just wish there was a camera that could have saved her in some way. (I suppose they caught the perpertrator because of it)
Part of me wants to know the full details, yet alot of me doesn't. I read the Anita Cobby book many years ago and couldn't sleep for weeks after it particularly the graphic detail of it all. I'm torn as to what detail should be released however after reading this forum, I was curious as to what AB had allegedly done to previous victims that was released in a magazine iykwim?
I knew little Darcey Freeman (Westgate Bridge tragedy in 2009) and both her parents. And I remember at the time being really frustrating with the detail that was released to the media more so because of the impact it had on Darceys family and that there are things that should be private.
What I don't agree with is AB allegedly having a say in what will be released and what won't be? Not sure if that info was correct?
Anyway looking forward in reading more, you've all certainly helped me clarify my thoughts
I'm a newbie (this is my first post!) but wanted to thank you for providing such insight into this case. I've been lurking for a long time and have had so many 'what it's' as well. This case has affected me beyond belief, I've trailed through all the CCTV footage and just wish there was a camera that could have saved her in some way. (I suppose they caught the perpertrator because of it)
Part of me wants to know the full details, yet alot of me doesn't. I read the Anita Cobby book many years ago and couldn't sleep for weeks after it particularly the graphic detail of it all. I'm torn as to what detail should be released however after reading this forum, I was curious as to what AB had allegedly done to previous victims that was released in a magazine iykwim?
I knew little Darcey Freeman (Westgate Bridge tragedy in 2009) and both her parents. And I remember at the time being really frustrating with the detail that was released to the media more so because of the impact it had on Darceys family and that there are things that should be private.
What I don't agree with is AB allegedly having a say in what will be released and what won't be? Not sure if that info was correct?
Anyway looking forward in reading more, you've all certainly helped me clarify my thoughts
Scoobysnack
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Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie (this is my first post!) but wanted to thank you for providing such insight into this case. I've been lurking for a long time and have had so many 'what it's' as well. This case has affected me beyond belief, I've trailed through all the CCTV footage and just wish there was a camera that could have saved her in some way. (I suppose they caught the perpertrator because of it)
Part of me wants to know the full details, yet alot of me doesn't. I read the Anita Cobby book many years ago and couldn't sleep for weeks after it particularly the graphic detail of it all. I'm torn as to what detail should be released however after reading this forum, I was curious as to what AB had allegedly done to previous victims that was released in a magazine iykwim?
I knew little Darcey Freeman (Westgate Bridge tragedy in 2009) and both her parents. And I remember at the time being really frustrating with the detail that was released to the media more so because of the impact it had on Darceys family and that there are things that should be private.
What I don't agree with is AB allegedly having a say in what will be released and what won't be? Not sure if that info was correct?
Anyway looking forward in reading more, you've all certainly helped me clarify my thoughts
Hi Dons:seeya:
If you are in Melbourne Vic.... we did not get to see the mag article that was in a very famous monthly mag ( which used to be weekly back in the day!)
This was due to a suppression order at the time that was granted by a judge.
I am a bit sketchy as to what happened at the committal hearing and the part that AB was deciding what was made public, you think his legal team would say nothing is aloud.
On a more personal note for you, I was greatly effected by poor little Darcy and her tragic terrifying story... my daughter is just a year younger, such horror she and her brothers went through, her story like Jill's will stay with me always.... and even though a few years have past it is still very raw, and I shed tears and get angry, It will NEVER make sense. I do wish Darcy's mum and brothers well.... gosh life would be unbearable without that little girl in their lives.
If you are not in Vic you could probably find the magazine at the library. I can't remember which issue it was, though. Sorry I can't bring myself to type what I read. I only remember very little (and wish I didn't remember!)
Thanks snoobysnack I am from Melbourne. :blushing:
I think all of Melb were affected by poor Darcey and it took 18mths of counselling to remove images from my head (I wasn't a witness) but knowing the family well it was horrendous. I also learnt how important things you say and don't say on social media that can affect a trial. But justice took its course which we were so relieved it did....(I still wish it was life with non parole)
Getting back to Jill's case I can't imagine what would have occurred. I don't know Brunswick area well so cant comment on why she went the way she did. I just couldn't believe that a complete stranger could do this...vile man.
I think all of Melb were affected by poor Darcey and it took 18mths of counselling to remove images from my head (I wasn't a witness) but knowing the family well it was horrendous. I also learnt how important things you say and don't say on social media that can affect a trial. But justice took its course which we were so relieved it did....(I still wish it was life with non parole)
Getting back to Jill's case I can't imagine what would have occurred. I don't know Brunswick area well so cant comment on why she went the way she did. I just couldn't believe that a complete stranger could do this...vile man.
Scoobysnack
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The cover had Hugh Jackman, I think it was the Nov 2012 issue
LegallyBrunette
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LegallyBrunette
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LegallyBrunette
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Bolded by me. Less than 2 months after Jill was taken from this world, another Victorian lass lost her life in a violent and degrading fashion. SH, the man charged with Sarah C's murder, has much in common with AB, not just their age. Both have more form than Black Caviar. SH's history is worse than AB. He should not have been walking the streets.
You can do a search for statistics showing how many on parole re-offend. If you haven't, it will shock you, particularly some of the offences.
Apart from these comments, I completely endorse everything said by the good doctor. :twocents:
rez125
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The only story in that issue was a Jill related one. No mention of AB and his past.
Did they have two stories in the original?
Wonder if this, too, is an AB job...
http://melbourne-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/woman-stabbed-in-fitzroy-north/
http://melbourne-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/woman-stabbed-in-fitzroy-north/
LegallyBrunette
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You must have read a copy printed for Victoria. It was edited.
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