Found Deceased Australia - Karen Ristevski, 47, Melbourne, Vic, 29 June 2016 - #16 *Arrest*

[sosocurious]

I'm interested in Sarah being "intercepted" at the airport... what was that all about?

Yes I was wondering if it were family or the police that intercepted her.

 

[Didi1201]

Why do we assume it all happened after SR left to school? Does police entertain a possibility it happened while SR was still in the house and maybe she was involved or witnessed it.

The problem will be to convince a jury that it was BR and not SR as it could have easily been her even though he lies and his stories are inconsistent it doesn't not make him guilty, maybe covering for his daughter after accidental death.

 

[Puggle]

Yes I was wondering if it were family or the police that intercepted her.

It was the defence lawyer using the term...
I'm thinking more the legal sense...in that it was police "intercepted" her....???

Now that would make things interesting...

Not sure how much influence Karen's side of the family had on Sarah by the end of that year..... and Borce's side all seem to possibly complicit in some shape or form...so who knows???

 

[Armchair snoop]

Murder is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind, who has no legal reason to do so. The degree of blame therefore separate out charges of manslaughter and murder, with manslaughter having two degrees of blame, voluntary and involuntary

In a murder,the prosecution must prove that the accused had the intention to kill, and intention to inflict grievous and serious bodily harm, or had a reckless indifference to human life. The accused must have been able to foresee that their actions - or indeed a failure to act - would result in the death of the victim.

Voluntary manslaughter means the intentional killing that is found with mitigating factors. That is, a lack of premeditation, and the presence of provocation like rage, but other factors must apply. This may include someone who was in an argument, became enraged, and lashed out at the victim, killing them.

Involuntary manslaughter involves and unlawful killing without intent, for example in a car accident caused by reckless driving or committing an illegal or dangerous act. The prosecution must prove that the death was caused by an illegal act or omission. an act of neglect, or a departure from the standard of care any reasonable person could expect, not occurring would cause serious injury or death.

Hope this helps. Thank goodness I learnt how to touch type.

 

[Via Marple]

Why do we assume it all happened after SR left to school? Does police entertain a possibility it happened while SR was still in the house and maybe she was involved or witnessed it.

The problem will be to convince a jury that it was BR and not SR as it could have easily been her even though he lies and his stories are inconsistent it doesn't not make him guilty, maybe covering for his daughter after accidental death.

No we don't assume that, there was a theory about the whole family including the dog was involved in a fist fight upstairs. Karen ended up the victim and went out the front...

Seriously that's the police's timeline. Karen was supposed to be alive when she last logged on just before 9am. By then Sarah has an alibi having left home. This is the assumption without hearing more evidence.

 

[sleepinoz]

I'm interested in Sarah being "intercepted" at the airport... what was that all about?

Yes, Intercepting Sarah at the airport - what cause would they have to do that? Was she ever considered a suspect?

 

[Moreinfo2]

Yes, Intercepting Sarah at the airport - what cause would they have to do that? Was she ever considered a suspect?

How many other family members were followed/had there phones bugged/homes and cars bugged?
Ahhh the “not knowing “ , if someone’s listening and watching your every move .

 

[Didi1201]

How many other family members were followed/had there phones bugged/homes and cars bugged?
Ahhh the “not knowing “ , if someone’s listening and watching your every move .

I think all of them are bugged/tracked to some degree(phones, internet, house cars..) I have seen VR a few weeks ago, looks paranoid.
Its not easy life thinking your every move is being watched, every word recorded...that alone would drive you insane.
Everything sensitive and remotely incriminating must be communicated by writing messages on a piece of paper which gets destroyed and burnt, lot of whispering goes on too...like in mafia movies

 

[Armchair snoop]

Between 2011 -2016 the average sentence for murder in Victoria was 19 years 1 month. The average sentence for manslaughter ranged from 6 years 11 months to 8 years 11 months.

source: Sentencing Advisory Council Victoria.

 

[Fluffykins]

Murder is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind, who has no legal reason to do so. The degree of blame therefore separate out charges of manslaughter and murder, with manslaughter having two degrees of blame, voluntary and involuntary

In a murder,the prosecution must prove that the accused had the intention to kill, and intention to inflict grievous and serious bodily harm, or had a reckless indifference to human life. The accused must have been able to foresee that their actions - or indeed a failure to act - would result in the death of the victim.

Voluntary manslaughter means the intentional killing that is found with mitigating factors. That is, a lack of premeditation, and the presence of provocation like rage, but other factors must apply. This may include someone who was in an argument, became enraged, and lashed out at the victim, killing them.

Involuntary manslaughter involves and unlawful killing without intent, for example in a car accident caused by reckless driving or committing an illegal or dangerous act. The prosecution must prove that the death was caused by an illegal act or omission. an act of neglect, or a departure from the standard of care any reasonable person could expect, not occurring would cause serious injury or death.

Hope this helps. Thank goodness I learnt how to touch type.

Thank you Snoop, that was very helpful. And I hate to say it, but I think on those grounds, the defence submission that he be tried for manslaughter will probably succeed - because what evidence have we heard to suggest there were no mitigating factors? I can't think of anything.

 

[they'll get you]

No we don't assume that, there was a theory about the whole family including the dog was involved in a fist fight upstairs. Karen ended up the victim and went out the front...

Seriously that's the police's timeline. Karen was supposed to be alive when she last logged on just before 9am. By then Sarah has an alibi having left home. This is the assumption without hearing more evidence.

I’m curious of what Karen found on that computer or did Borce get upset with what she was typing. If Borce did the bookkeeping, did Karen see something that set the fight in motion.
I feel this is significant in someway.

 

[Puggle]

This is going to sound really repugnant and gross...so I apologise ahead of time


Coming from a rural area. ... I've come across many disturbed dead animal carracasses.... disturbed by other foraging animals...

If all that was disturbed on Karen's remains were her hyiod bones in her neck.....

You would have one very selective animal predator.....extremely unplausable.

Can it be diffinately be ruled out. .. No!!!

But is it in sync with normal animal- retriever.. behaviour to be selective to one small area of a carcass..... no!!!

 

[madoodi]

Hi All.
I have not posted in a while but have read every post and want to say thank you to all who are keeping us informed with the hearing details and everyone for your thoughts and input.

I just had/have a few thoughts and are all IMOO.

I hope this goes to trial for murder. BR has way too many inconsistencies in his stories and the coincidences are far too many. SR I think was a very immature and unreliable witness on the stand. I am not sure what to make of her bahaviour/ words etc since her mother went missing and was subsequently found deceased. If she truly believes it was not her father who murdered her mum, then who does she think did it? Unless of course she knows who that person is. Is it possible she had witnessed the whole thing and to her it appeared to be an accident and has since suffered a type of stokholm syndrome/ PTSD to believe BR is innocent. Or was she herself directly involved and BR is covering up fof her. I just see how a logical person would otherwise think BR is innocent given All the coincidences and inconsistencies that have come to light.

BR's actions and attitude since KR disappeared initially and then the discovery of her body did not portray a worried/ grieving husband intent on finding out who did this. He came across more angry (at KR) in a way, like it was a bother or inconvenience. Plus his initial actions gave the implication he knew (well now it is alleged he knew) that she was deceased. It is either him being smug and hoping he gets away with it or him accepting to take the fall for someone else and still hoping to get away with it.

AR disappeared off the radar after all his continuous cryptic rants. I sometimes wonder if those rants had any depth to them. He had a hate towards BR. I guess either because he knew/suspected what he had done to KR or because somehow BR had implicated him in the whole thing. Remember the podcast a friend of his did saying that they knew what happened... maybe BR had involved AR and once KR was found and things started coming to light he (AR) got angry at BR for implicating him and then subsequently getting caught. Is it Diggers Rest where he lives? If so I find the phone pings there interesting. Is AR now being held in jail? Could the cops have used this arrest of his as a way to keep him under supervision not to do anything silly or dangerous or damaging to the case.

With regards to VR- I believe he is involved to some degree... either as an accessory or BR confided in him as to what happened. The report of the Merc and a 4WD always comes to mind.

Lastly I remember reading that the police saying the house was where they allege BR killed or 'incapacitated' KR. Does this mean she could have been placed in the car unconscious as opposed to deceased and then killed elsewhere?

Apologies for the loong post
And again the above is IMO MOO.

 

[Fluffykins]

Yes I’m still confused. If she supposedly went out to clear her head, she got changed into her work clothes that lay on her bed. Right?
But, why haven’t we been told what clothing she was found in? Were they pjs or work clothes?
It’s like the bigger clearer pin pointing evidence is not being discussed in court yet!

Ok so Borce wants us to believe that Karen went out for a walk in the midddle of a winters morning in her pjs, and no shoes but the police wanted us to recall if we had seen Karen anywhere after her disappearance in jeans and a jacket, but no shoes as per van set up after her disappearance. But Sarah has told us her mothers work clothes were on her bed when she got home that evening.
ALL LIES......

Yes, I'd really like to hear what clothing she was wearing when found. If PJs, then for Borce the jig is up. Melbourne in winter is cold, wet and windy and nobody in their right mind would head out on a winter morning in their PJs, let alone without footwear. I went out for a walk a couple of days ago in a cardigan and tee and maybe 100 metres down the road had to turn around and come back home for a polar fleece jacket.

But just maybe Borce had the presence of mind to redress her in jeans and a jacket as he claimed she was wearing. In that case, wouldn't Sarah have been asked to identify what items of clothing were missing from her mum's wardrobe? And surely they would have been able to locate the PJs Karen had been wearing that morning?

I really hope we get to hear some info about all of this on Wednesday.

 

[Fluffykins]

This is going to sound really repugnant and gross...so I apologise ahead of time

Coming from a rural area. ... I've come across many disturbed dead animal carracasses.... disturbed by other foraging animals...

If all that was disturbed on Karen's remains were her hyiod bones in her neck.....

You would have one very selective animal predator.....extremely unplausable.

Can it be diffinately be ruled out. .. No!!!

But is it in sync with normal animal- retriever.. behaviour to be selective to one small area of a carcass..... no!!!

Nono Puggle, you have nothing to apologise for. This:

The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation. On this basis, postmortem detection of hyoid fracture is relevant to the diagnosis of strangulation.

Fracture of the hyoid bone in strangulation: comparison of fractured and unfractured hyoids from victims of strangulation. - PubMed - NCBI

And this (bbm):

Hyoid bone fracture is usually the result of direct trauma to the neck because of manual strangulation, hanging, blunt trauma or projectiles. However, hyoid bone fracture caused by a fall has seldom been reported. We report the case of a young man who fell from 1.5 m while painting, which resulted as an isolated hyoid bone fracture. Hyoid bone fracture secondary to trauma may occur when a victim falls with a direct contusion of the neck. [snip]

Blunt neck trauma is usually caused by motor vehicle accidents, strangulation, sport injuries or assaults. However, fracture of the hyoid bone is rare because it is protected by the mandible. In fact, most hyoid bone injuries are caused by strangulation.

Hyoid bone fracture caused by blunt neck trauma - ScienceDirect

IMO most likely she was strangled. Might also have fallen/been pushed down the stairs but not so likely.

What on earth am I doing still up at this time of night.

 

[rosie84]

Nono Puggle, you have nothing to apologise for. This:

The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation. On this basis, postmortem detection of hyoid fracture is relevant to the diagnosis of strangulation.

Fracture of the hyoid bone in strangulation: comparison of fractured and unfractured hyoids from victims of strangulation. - PubMed - NCBI

And this (bbm):

Hyoid bone fracture is usually the result of direct trauma to the neck because of manual strangulation, hanging, blunt trauma or projectiles. However, hyoid bone fracture caused by a fall has seldom been reported. We report the case of a young man who fell from 1.5 m while painting, which resulted as an isolated hyoid bone fracture. Hyoid bone fracture secondary to trauma may occur when a victim falls with a direct contusion of the neck. [snip]

Blunt neck trauma is usually caused by motor vehicle accidents, strangulation, sport injuries or assaults. However, fracture of the hyoid bone is rare because it is protected by the mandible. In fact, most hyoid bone injuries are caused by strangulation.

Hyoid bone fracture caused by blunt neck trauma - ScienceDirect

IMO most likely she was strangled. Might also have fallen/been pushed down the stairs but not so likely.

What on earth am I doing still up at this time of night.

I agree with both of your theories.

The only was these bones are broken or fractured or due to intentional force whether that’s strangulation, hanging - that’s more dislocation though, or being hit with an object.

I think his lawyers also know this is going to trial hence the manslaughter application. Which I hope fails.
SR being intercepted at the airport could mean something and also nothing. Since she was apparently one of the last people to see Karen alive, the police may not have have wanted her to go anywhere in case they needed more questioning.
My instincts still tell me she knows more than she’s letting on.
As for the family member holding up a sign about being bugged - sorry I can’t remember who said this above but yes! If you have nothing to be concerned about, then talking normally within your house should not be an issue unless you have something to hide.

Looking forward to today’s hearing.
Thoughts are with the family again,
Steven if you’re still here reading all of this, I hope you’re doing okay.

 

[JillyDonovan]

I’m not completely up to date with how the law works in courtrooms, but can anyone tell me what the likely hood of conviction for murder is without a cause of death? Is this a reason for the defence are going for a manslaughter charge AND still want to go in as not guilty?

 

[JillyDonovan]

The topic of the Ristevski case came up at a Christmas party last year, and someone spoke up about Borce making plans to go overseas possibly to meet up with Sarah. Causing police to pounce. I wonder if there is any truth to that, obviously all hear say and personal opinions over drinks......

 

[Armchair snoop]

Thank you Snoop, that was very helpful. And I hate to say it, but I think on those grounds, the defence submission that he be tried for manslaughter will probably succeed - because what evidence have we heard to suggest there were no mitigating factors? I can't think of anything.

I think you may be right 'Fluffykins', could this be the start of ploy by the defence to plead for an accidental death. So far I don't think there is anything in the evidence to suggest that it was premeditated. It only seems the cover up to conceal the crime is so suss.

 

[Via Marple]

If there is strong evidence of a motive , such as serious financial problems and BR had some direct benefits from Karen's death, then murder was more likely than manslaughter. IMO.

That was a factor in the Baden-Clay conviction right?