Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Monday morning spontaneous thoughts .... been thinking about the mystery man seen at Macca's with Marion. So, Marion virtually booted Chris out of her house (Sally's husband) when unbeknown to him someone was about to call in to see Marion. Could this man have been a Kenja follower ... from what I've read Kenjan's are discouraged from being with anyone other than Kenjan's, so could that be why Marion asked Chris to leave quickly, and the reason he was kept secret? If Marion got involved with Kenja that also would explain why she said she didn't want anything to do with her family and headed off to start a new life. Brainwashing, hypnosis, mind control, that would all add up to explain name change, disappearing, bank withdrawals. If we could find some link there, then that may help to lead to what happened to Marion. Just some thoughts, I do tend to obsess about ideas, but hey, this Kenja seems worth looking into. Wonder how we could find out if Marion met anyone from there, someone recruiting, or if she went to one of their seminar/workshops thinking it was for self-development to feel better. Any ideas? Hey, maybe the Le Courrier ad was put in by someone in Kenja, who knows? Or maybe Marion met Jan Hamilton somewhere .... ah well, just some Monday morning thoughts ....
Oh and if anyone's interested this is an interesting article about Kenja, pretty long, but just putting it up, rather interesting.
Cult Activity In New South Wales

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Regarding Kenja.

For the lazy - like myself - there is a podcast on Kenja made by Lets Talk About Sects, that is easily found on Podbean or similar platforms.

Have just downloaded it and will give it a listen when I have some time.

 

[alleycat13]

Such a shame that something like Facebook wasn’t around back then. Would be so much easier to see/find out who she may have been associating with ect. All we can rely on is word of mouth and if she kept certain people a secret, we may never know

 

[NesssaP]

It's really playing in my mind... IF the tip is decidedly about Marion Barter and not a different Marion...

Whoever made the tip call in 2002 - believed that Marion was a reported missing person... not that she had left her family and started a new life - which is what the family themselves had been officially told... Marion herself would not have told people that she was considered a Missing Person... This would indicate that the tipster knew that Marion's family had been looking for her and that they considered her to be missing and at that time the family had believed that Marion was on the Missing Persons database...

I am thinking it might mean the tipster had some inside knowledge of the family's beliefs despite the Police assurances of Marion having been contacted and had started a new life...

This tip was placed 5 years after Marion's supposed start of a new life - with no actual investigation having supposedly taken place. If Marion had actually begun a new life, those who were associating with her in that new life would not have known that Marion's family thought of her as a Missing Person - surely Marion would not have shared that knowledge if she was hoping to disappear??? Sally stated that she really didn't get any press coverage or anything until 2003 or 2004... So this point has me really perplexed...

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just something I've been wondering about for a while .... does anyone recognise the T-shirt Marion is wearing in the engagement party photo? You can see the letter 'A' and maybe a bird, or something - could it be a logo? Been thinking it might be a clue to something she was a member of as the picture was taken not long before she left for the UK ... otherwise it's just a fashion item from back in the day.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

It's really playing in my mind... IF the tip is decidedly about Marion Barter and not a different Marion...

Whoever made the tip call in 2002 - believed that Marion was a reported missing person... not that she had left her family and started a new life - which is what the family themselves had been officially told... Marion herself would not have told people that she was considered a Missing Person... This would indicate that the tipster knew that Marion's family had been looking for her and that they considered her to be missing and at that time the family had believed that Marion was on the Missing Persons database...

I am thinking it might mean the tipster had some inside knowledge of the family's beliefs despite the Police assurances of Marion having been contacted and had started a new life...

This tip was placed 5 years after Marion's supposed start of a new life - with no actual investigation having supposedly taken place. If Marion had actually begun a new life, those who were associating with her in that new life would not have known that Marion's family thought of her as a Missing Person - surely Marion would not have shared that knowledge if she was hoping to disappear??? Sally stated that she really didn't get any press coverage or anything until 2003 or 2004... So this point has me really perplexed...

Good point NesssaP, that is puzzling and completely interesting. Definitely something to think about. Wonder why the Crime Stoppers tip was ignored at the time. Gary thoroughly investigated it eight or so years later. H'mm, so the elderly couple living at the house he went to, you'd have to say how on earth could they be expected to remember where they were on that date eight years ago when the call was made, or who was there that day? Oh boy, if only it was acted on straight away, hey .... Gary has done a great job, most excellent, but yeah, that it wasn't investigated at the time is shameful.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Just something I've been wondering about for a while .... does anyone recognise the T-shirt Marion is wearing in the engagement party photo? You can see the letter 'A' and maybe a bird, or something - could it be a logo? Been thinking it might be a clue to something she was a member of as the picture was taken not long before she left for the UK ... otherwise it's just a fashion item from back in the day.

It looks like the Gorgio Armani logo

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Like here?

Giorgio Armani logo - Google Search

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Good point NesssaP, that is puzzling and completely interesting. Definitely something to think about. Wonder why the Crime Stoppers tip was ignored at the time. Gary thoroughly investigated it eight or so years later. H'mm, so the elderly couple living at the house he went to, you'd have to say how on earth could they be expected to remember where they were on that date eight years ago when the call was made, or who was there that day? Oh boy, if only it was acted on straight away, hey .... Gary has done a great job, most excellent, but yeah, that it wasn't investigated at the time is shameful.

We dont know that the crimestoppers call wasnt investigated at the time, just that it wasnt investigated in relation to Marion Barter at that time. The elderly couple may have been contacted by police several times over the call but Gary wouldnt be able to discuss other investigations when talking to the podcast/Sally.
The podcast seem hellbent on portraying the police as negligent or disinterested but this is all based on assumption. The call is unlikely to relate to Marion, but the police have investigated it, this in itself should show the police have left not cut any corners or ignored any potential leads in looking for Marion.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

It looks like the Gorgio Armani logo

Ah ha! Genius. Thank you Intrigued and Tootsie, I shall stop obsessing that it's some secret society t shirt offering a valuable clue, hee hee ... indebted

Like here?

Giorgio Armani logo - Google Search

 

[Itsapuzzle]

We dont know that the crimestoppers call wasnt investigated at the time, just that it wasnt investigated in relation to Marion Barter at that time. The elderly couple may have been contacted by police several times over the call but Gary wouldnt be able to discuss other investigations when talking to the podcast/Sally.
The podcast seem hellbent on portraying the police as negligent or disinterested but this is all based on assumption. The call is unlikely to relate to Marion, but the police have investigated it, this in itself should show the police have left not cut any corners or ignored any potential leads in looking for Marion.

I don't know Intrigued, it would have to have been marked as investigated wouldn't it, otherwise police resources would be doubling up on everything, don't think they'd do that, waste of resources and wouldn't have the funding for starters... and you wouldn't think they'd pop a crime stoppers tip into everyone's file that matched the first name and let every detective on all those cases send out cadaver dogs and investigate multiple times, surely our police force aren't that silly. And you couldn't have all the relatives/family of missing people thinking there was a tip that their loved one was buried somewhere .... I really think it would only go into one file and would be marked as investigated or not. Just my opinion, I'm no expert, but I don't know really. Just a few thoughts. Cheers

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I don't know Intrigued, it would have to have been marked as investigated wouldn't it, otherwise police resources would be doubling up on everything, don't think they'd do that, waste of resources and wouldn't have the funding for starters... and you wouldn't think they'd pop a crime stoppers tip into everyone's file that matched the first name and let every detective on all those cases send out cadaver dogs and investigate multiple times, surely our police force aren't that silly. And you couldn't have all the relatives/family of missing people thinking there was a tip that their loved one was buried somewhere .... I really think it would only go into one file and would be marked as investigated or not. Just my opinion, I'm no expert, but I don't know really. Just a few thoughts. Cheers

Good points Itsapuzzle! I'm definately no expert and I have no idea how any of this works but I visualise it a bit differently. I think that crimestoppers call information would be maintained as records in a database that officers can access so that the call information (and details of police action/follow up) isnt just available to the case it is assigned to.
I think the crimestoppers tip would have been linked to the Sandford case (at least initially anyway) because she was actually listed as a missing person and her case was being highlighted at the time. I think it probably became part of the Barter investigation when a pre-Garry officer did a search of the database.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Here is an article about Marion from the Armidale Express from 2013, I hadn’t seen before:

Searching for clues to find missing mum

What I find interesting is:

- The crime stoppers tip was that Marion was buried near the University of New England in Armidale. A new detail.

- Sally says the reason for disappearance could have been that Marion “met a man and taken the money out to start a new life.” Or “could have been victim of identity theft.”

Insightful given that it was a theory even then, although we only now discovered the possible link to Monsieur Remakel’s lonely hearts ad and that her new name was the same initials as his.

- Sally says $5k was withdrawn daily as it was the maximum you could take out. This is something we’ve pondered on this site many times but never had an answer to.

- Less notable, but interesting to me, is that Sally mentions it was the house sale money that was withdrawn in $5k increments (from CBA) even though we, here, suspect the house money would have likely been held at the Colonial State as that was where the mortgage was. We could be mistaken. Or perhaps she had significant cash in both accounts? What purpose is there in having two active accounts?

 

[Mel 1303]

Okay, so I've gone back to the podcast where the Crime Stoppers call is mentioned. It's in Episode 5 starting at 20.31:

Sally : "In 2002 a guy had called Crime Stoppers and told police that a woman by the name of Marion who went missing from northern New South Wales area had been killed and was buried in bushland in Armidale. And I questioned as to why they didn't look into that and they said, 'well, we get calls like that all the time.' I said, 'that'd be fine if we'd had several calls, but we've had zero calls.' So, he fought for it and they let him take one dog and one dog handler to search an area, and it rained the whole day, and evidently they didn't find anything."

Bryan: ".... Detective Gary Sheehan says he thoroughly investigated the anonymous call to Crime Stoppers, but his checks were carried out in 2010, Sally believes the anonymous call came eight years earlier in 2002."

Gary: "The only thing I'll say is at one stage there was some information come in that Marion had met with foul play and had been buried out at Armidale in a paddock. I followed up that information and I traced the source of the information. Unfortunately it was a - it was a bogus name, but the address that they gave was a real address. So I travelled out to Armidale and I spoke to the people that lived there. They had no clue about what I was talking about. They didn't know the name that had been given to Crime Stoppers. And I went further than that, I actually went out and spent two days at Armidale looking for the site that I believed that they had been talking about in the report. I found what I thought was the site and I took out a Cadaver dog with me and I involved the SES in a fairly expansive search for two days and we came up with nothing. So that's the only thing that we've had in the whole time. And I think that information came in prior to me being involved in the investigation, but it was something that I acted upon, but it's been the only information so far that would lead me to suggest that there was something wrong with Marion, and it proved to be false."
Just noting Gary doesn't say "a Marion", he says "Marion", so that's interesting.

This is the section I was referring to. It is all there, running together. So which bit is right? One dog, one handler, one day, in the rain, OR a cadaver dog, the SES, two days, expansive search. This is where I got the impression that Gary spent two days in Armidale lookin for the site, then two days searching. Four in total.

I wonder if Gary saying Marion rather than a Marion is him just quoting what was said in the tip?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Here is an article about Marion from the Armidale Express from 2013, I hadn’t seen before:

Searching for clues to find missing mum

What I find interesting is:

- The crime stoppers tip was that Marion was buried near the University of New England in Armidale. A new detail.

- Sally says the reason for disappearance could have been that Marion “met a man and taken the money out to start a new life.” Or “could have been victim of identity theft.”

Insightful given that it was a theory even then, although we only now discovered the possible link to Monsieur Remakel’s lonely hearts ad and that her new name was the same initials as his.

- Sally says $5k was withdrawn daily as it was the maximum you could take out. This is something we’ve pondered on this site many times but never had an answer to.

- Less notable, but interesting to me, is that Sally mentions it was the house sale money that was withdrawn in $5k increments (from CBA) even though we, here, suspect the house money would have likely been held at the Colonial State as that was where the mortgage was. We could be mistaken. Or perhaps she had significant cash in both accounts? What purpose is there in having two active accounts?

Thanks for sharing - interesting article!
The thing with these articles is that the source of information is Sally who has provided what she knows based on what she has been able to piece together from her own sesrching and what the police have told her. So some of what is said has been assumed in an attempt to join the dots the information is not necessarily validated/fact.
The 5k withdrawal limit must be an assumption, this doesnt exist. ATMs have daily limits, branch withdrawals do not. It's your money you can have it whenever you like.
Also the statement that the 5k CBA withdrawals were the proceeds of the house sale is also an assumption. The withdrawals were confirmed by telephone banking but where the money came from has not been validated - it could have been proceeds of the house sale but it could also have just been other money Marion had.

One of the most frustrating things about this podcast is that the journalists involved dont discern between known and assumed.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

This is the section I was referring to. It is all there, running together. So which bit is right? One dog, one handler, one day, in the rain, OR a cadaver dog, the SES, two days, expansive search. This is where I got the impression that Gary spent two days in Armidale lookin for the site, then two days searching. Four in total.

I wonder if Gary saying Marion rather than a Marion is him just quoting what was said in the tip?

I'd go with the four days, two spent scouting out the location and two involving the SES and Cadaver. He's gone above and beyond one would think ... pretty insulting to infer he hasn't done it properly and they need to do it again ... hey, just my thoughts, I mean, if he's listening to the podcast, etc, it would be infuriating, but anyway ..... he's done a great job I reckon, above and beyond, yes indeed. Wonder if the address given to the Crime Stoppers matched the phone number, I mean, do the Crime Stoppers call takers see what number is calling them and note it down? Or did the caller just give the bogus name and they track the number that way. That would make a big difference.

 

[alleycat13]

Here is an article about Marion from the Armidale Express from 2013, I hadn’t seen before:

Searching for clues to find missing mum

What I find interesting is:

- The crime stoppers tip was that Marion was buried near the University of New England in Armidale. A new detail.

I posted my theory about the University of New England on the Facebook page also and it seems that this article is full of unreliable info - apparently she studied in Wagga Wagga and not Armidale and Sally has liked a comment which implies that this whoever has written this article has said some things that aren't necessarily facts. I hadn't seen this article until I read the quoted post.

But I do find it interesting that I haven't seen anything (info or theories) regarding the University of New England and now we can see that the writer of this article has basically said that the tip included she had been buried near there.

Very strange! Maybe he had done some of his own research and came to a theory similar to mine and wrote it more as fact than just a theory? I think the theory does have some credibility due to the information we 100% know as fact from the tip and that there are quite a few farms surrounding the area.

Also realised that Grafton is only an hours drive away from Armidale which is where her Medicare card was last used.

This whole case is just so strange!!!! Wish we had more info but also the more info we get just seems to muddle the whole thing even more! Praying that Sally is able to get her hands on all of the unredacted files she is after!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Regarding Kenja.

For the lazy - like myself - there is a podcast on Kenja made by Lets Talk About Sects, that is easily found on Podbean or similar platforms.

Have just downloaded it and will give it a listen when I have some time.

Thanks for the podcast info Cliff Hardy, have had a listen to it, very well researched and presented, I must say. Of note is that Jan H has a big history and interest in the theatre, plays and acting, two teachers are mentioned in the podcast who got caught up in it big time (and one of them is on the Missing Persons Register) and, well, Kenja seems to have made a massive amount of money over the years, hey, $100,000 ads in the paper each year for KD .... owners of multiple properties .... very interesting.

 

[alleycat13]

Some more info released about the tip that Gary Sheehan investigated.. have gone back and forward with Sally a couple of times on Facebook comments and she also said the tip included "near the Uni and near a bike track". Looks like Gary had told her this perhaps over the phone (Sally not expected to remember everything) but Gary had only mentioned the "paddock" in the podcast.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Apologies for the morbid imagery. If the tip is true and indeed about our Marion, is it not curious that a lifelong teacher was buried at the back of a place of learning? For the super sleuths out there, I wonder if there is a connection between any teachers or staff at TSS and those at the University of New England? I mean, there is the potential that this incident has relevance to the alleged abuse going on at TSS and wider education sector... could Marion have known too much?