Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[Sophie-Renee]

It would be interesting to know what books she had been reading,
Perhaps she borrowed books on disappearing, or ones on Luxembourg.
I have no idea how long libraries keep records for.

Or maybe she bought a book over the net.
By 1997, I'd been online for five years and had bought things online.
I think my first buy was a Rezap battery charger which I bought from the Australian Geographic site, 1995 I think.

Although it was not a book, it was a serial published in the 40s in 50s in Australian papers... The Saul and the spinster.. Possibly available in Australian libraries.. Set in Australia, about a crime where the featured home of of the spinster is called, florabella. It involves the new south Wales police.. a murder and is written by Aidan de Brune.. Himself an Australian. I wonder if Marion ever read it... I believe it is now available in ebook.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Completely Brilliant KiwiNZ .... ah ha! Yes, hotel could have been booked in mysterious travelling companion’s name, of course .... I’d never thought of that, and maybe did stay there while they got things sorted.

Exactly! Never thought of that. If they can say a florabella or Marion was not booked into the hotel on the nights in question, they must still have access to guest lists from that far back else they would just say., sorry records no longer exist. They would not be able to say nobody of that name had a booking , unless they had existing proof.

Maybe they can check what names booked a room that was clearly for 2 people.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I agree. I also keep thinking about why the passport number on the passenger card would have been filled in by someone other than Marion. Either she was traveling with someone else who filled out that number OR an airport attendant noticed it was left blank and then, and then filled it in for her (not sure if employee would have done this or would they have required she fill it out herself). It’s possible she tried to leave it blank, hoping airport staff didn’t notice the omission. But also possible she had a travel companion.

I understand about redactions etc and why they are needed, but this other name really is the key. If they could find a passenger list for Marion's flights and match a name to both then there would be something to follow up because the name would have to be their real name and match their passport which yes can be faked but thst really would be a whole other crime itself...

If someone was with Marion in Australia before she left and returned with her, it is so crucial as to whether she went of her own accord or with someone and possibly coerced. The UK break could have been a tactic even for the travelling companion and not for just Marion... to get her away from everything familiar, build up her trust in him, promising the world and then on return to Australia getting her to empty her accounts and hold her to ransom.. For all we know he was threatening her and her family if she made any contact or did not do as he asked. Even just anger over the car money not appearing, seems more like someone wanting to see fast cash from her than a message Marion would have actually wanted passed on to Sally.

 

[bennythedog]

Do you think though...... if Marion was about to fly off to meet up with a lover/husband/new man, then her whole demeanour would have been different in the lead up to her leaving. She would have been excited and giddy - the Marion we have been introduced to loved to be in love - so this would have been really excited and bubbling about the trip

Instead Sally describes her as "exhausted" and how she chased Chris out of her house one evening when it appeared she did not want him to rumble anything about the new man. This does not sound like someone who was loved up and excited to be going on an adventure with a new love.

To me this sounds like someone with secrets and possibly not good ones

Why wouldn't Marion want her friends and family to know she was in love, off on a great adventure and happy, if indeed this was the case. Friends and family want good things for you generally don't they, so although they may have been surprised, they surely would have wished her well and wanted it all to be amazing for her! To hear regularly and be updated and go to the wedding (if there was one). Who marries, or pretends to marry someone that no one in their circle has met? And doesn't tell anyone? The secrets she kept were huge but we do not have any understanding of why?

I am imagining standing with all that luggage at the bus stop, with no one there with me, getting on a bus to somewhere that only I know where, to catch a flight to somewhere that only I know where. I have nothing material here - no house, no job, no car (its being sold), a container full of my belongings, which only I know where they are. I have a new name and a new passport that only I know about amongst my family and friends. After all my meticulous planning, the day has come and off I go.

How am I feeling? Trying to stand in her shoes, after having done all of these things with a plan in my head that I had not shared with anyone, I would be feeling one of two things -

Abandoned - how could no one see that I was struggling, where are they tonight? I am going away for a year, and there is no one here with me, gosh I got to 51 years old and there is no one who will rock up for me to see me off. Wow, that is sad. No one noticed all the things I did to shut down my life, and here I am, all alone. I hoped that somewhere along the way someone would notice and beg me to stay, but no, clearly I don't mean as much as I hoped to the people I care about. So I will be ok without them, I'm good. (and a giant FU) at the same time. Didn't need you anyway.

Or

Thank goodness that's over, I am free. Who knows what comes next, let's go! I am never coming back here, how exciting! I feel like a spy with all these secrets but look at me go! I pulled it off!

Of course these are just my interpretations of how she might have felt, but that is such a massive thing to do and there seems to have been little notice taken that she was making such a big trip - that is a big deal to do on your own (as it appeared). If your kid was going off backpacking for a year, you would have a going away party, or a bit of a send off. If you get the courage to do something later in life, this is even more out of your comfort zone, but there does not seem to have been any kind of "fanfare" deal of her leaving, party, family meal out, bon voyage all that, instead she cleared the decks, wrapped up her life and almost slunk away.

Please correct me if any of that interpretation is wrong, but if that was me I would be on that plane either really elated or in floods of tears. Either way, no one seems to have noticed.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I understand about redactions etc and why they are needed, but this other name really is the key. If they could find a passenger list for Marion's flights and match a name to both then there would be something to follow up because the name would have to be their real name and match their passport which yes can be faked but thst really would be a whole other crime itself...

If someone was with Marion in Australia before she left and returned with her, it is so crucial as to whether she went of her own accord or with someone and possibly coerced. The UK break could have been a tactic even for the travelling companion and not for just Marion... to get her away from everything familiar, build up her trust in him, promising the world and then on return to Australia getting her to empty her accounts and hold her to ransom.. For all we know he was threatening her and her family if she made any contact or did not do as he asked. Even just anger over the car money not appearing, seems more like someone wanting to see fast cash from her than a message Marion would have actually wanted passed on to Sally.

I have always wondered if her family had been used as a threat against her, and maybe that is why she acted the way she did at McDonald’s to protect Sally from someone whom had made threats against her.

Seems odd that Marion’s message re the car was an angry one rather than I just want to be on my own sorry leave me alone, if that is what she wanted.

Off topic, I was watching a programme about a man that went missing for 6 years from the uk, he said he was going on a trip to London with friends, he never turned up. 6 years later he is located in Spain in a phyc ward who paired him with a missing persons alert, doesn’t want to see his parents but the police advise the basics, they managed to locate him, again the hospital refuses to let them see him as per his request, he had hardly spoken since been admitted and had obvious issues, they had a uk Dr with them and he was allowed to see him, he convinced him to see his parents, long story short, he is now back in the uk under the NHS and doing well, and in daily contact with his family. My point is just because you say you don’t want contact doesn’t mean it’s not the best thing for you if your thinking and mental health is compromised. I felt Marion should be left alone if that’s was her choice but then I saw this and kind of changed my mind.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Random thought, I wonder if the pilot was one of the Cathay pacific 49ers, whom was sacked in 2001 and a large court case followed, I got the impression he had not been a pilot for awhile and I think those caught up in the case struggled to gain employment within the industry. It’s not really relevant to this case but I am intrigued to know who he is, I had wrote him off until they confirmed she flew back via Hong Kong with Cathay.

 

[sunnynz]

Seems odd that Marion’s message re the car was an angry one rather than I just want to be on my own sorry leave me alone, if that is what she wanted.

Yes makes me think that someone had turned her against her family, poisoned her against them.

 

[Mel 1303]

Seems odd that Marion’s message re the car was an angry one rather than I just want to be on my own sorry leave me alone, if that is what she wanted.

RSBM- To me, it would be a really odd statement if it were not for the behaviours before Marion left for her trip. Quitting her job, not taking a leave without pay. Selling her house. Giving some of her antique furniture to Owen and Sally, as it will be theirs one day anyway. Putting other things in a shipping container- not a storage unit, but a transportable shipping container, that no one knows the location of. Changing her name by deedpoll, but then only changing her passport- nothing else- like a temporary travel name, all above board- hard to trace but cant get into trouble with the law abroad, but not a forever name. Then she is asked to say something that only Marion would know- maybe on the spot the car was all she could think of?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I have more questions today than any real thoughts.. The florabella name, how was that discovered again? Am I right in thinking someone Sally knew who worked in an airport managed to track down her flight information and it came up as florabella and other names known... If so, was this technically a breach and why they have never mentioned this woman's name? Because she was risking her job...?

Also on the subject of the name change.. apparently no records of deed poll are kept? Because I wonder, if thst is the case how did they discover in 2011 the actual date of Marion's name change, by which time 14 years had passed? Does this not mean some sort of record was found? Thanks in advance! I have probably heard these answers but went in one ear and out the other!

 

[Sparkles5777]

I have more questions today than any real thoughts.. The florabella name, how was that discovered again? Am I right in thinking someone Sally knew who worked in an airport managed to track down her flight information and it came up as florabella and other names known... If so, was this technically a breach and why they have never mentioned this woman's name? Because she was risking her job...?

Also on the subject of the name change.. apparently no records of deed poll are kept? Because I wonder, if thst is the case how did they discover in 2011 the actual date of Marion's name change, by which time 14 years had passed? Does this not mean some sort of record was found? Thanks in advance! I have probably heard these answers but went in one ear and out the other!

I would bet 100% that whoever this friend is, doesn't have that job anymore. Customs/Airport Security/Border Patrol is serious business

To me this is part of the reason why there are people unwilling to help Sally anymore. Whilst understandable that she just wants to find out what happened to her mum, it seems that those that help are somewhat thrown under the bus when they don't agree with what she believes happened to Marion. The friend that gave her the customs details I'm pretty certain would be out of a job. The TSS guy didn't have nice things to say about the way he treated her and implied that she harassed Lesley this year. Gary Sheehan. Remakel etc.

At what point do we start to question the ethics of a podcast in what is essentially an un-regulated industry?

 

[bennythedog]

I have more questions today than any real thoughts.. The florabella name, how was that discovered again? Am I right in thinking someone Sally knew who worked in an airport managed to track down her flight information and it came up as florabella and other names known... If so, was this technically a breach and why they have never mentioned this woman's name? Because she was risking her job...?

Also on the subject of the name change.. apparently no records of deed poll are kept? Because I wonder, if thst is the case how did they discover in 2011 the actual date of Marion's name change, by which time 14 years had passed? Does this not mean some sort of record was found? Thanks in advance! I have probably heard these answers but went in one ear and out the other!

SO, Gary Sheehan left some paperwork where Sally could see it one time and she was able to see the name change on there. It sounds like Gary wanted Sally to understand why he thought her mum had left of her own accord and let her see things that might help her to understand what his thought process had been (he should not have done this but was trying to be helpful)

And the deed poll, the records are kept for many years but are also sealed for (I think) 100 years so noone is able to discover any information about why/when/reasons for the name change by deed poll until the 100 years (?) has elapsed.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I would bet 100% that whoever this friend is, doesn't have that job anymore. Customs/Airport Security/Border Patrol is serious business

To me this is part of the reason why there are people unwilling to help Sally anymore. Whilst understandable that she just wants to find out what happened to her mum, it seems that those that help are somewhat thrown under the bus when they don't agree with what she believes happened to Marion. The friend that gave her the customs details I'm pretty certain would be out of a job. The TSS guy didn't have nice things to say about the way he treated her and implied that she harassed Lesley this year. Gary Sheehan. Remakel etc.

At what point do we start to question the ethics of a podcast in what is essentially an un-regulated industry?

I think the podcast is a double edge word, if something has happened to Marion they may have trouble prosecuting someone.

In hindsight she would have been better and likely more sucussful had she gone the travel against and shipping company route in the first place as they are not as legally restrictive as the bank and customs. They have their own rules of privacy which can be bent within reason, unlike customs or the bank can’t be.

The Facebook followers keep banging on about why the name Florabella is retracted when it’s basic, Sally did not gain the information legally so they revert back to the law, with the assumption that you could not legally find the name. Don’t know if she referenced “ Florabella” in her application, if not then the court can not use information outside of that that is presented, they don’t care what is happening on Facebook. If she did then I assume they ignore it b3cause legally there was no way of her knowing the name without resorting to illegal ways.


I can’t even read the Facebook page any more it’s to frustrating to see a whole lot of people who can’t apply common law, especially privacy laws, is it that hard to apply these situations to yourself and figure out why the police can not just tell everyone everything .. sorry rant over lol.... I will just stay with you guys and avoid the page at least folk on here get it.

 

[Mel 1303]

I have more questions today than any real thoughts.. The florabella name, how was that discovered again? Am I right in thinking someone Sally knew who worked in an airport managed to track down her flight information and it came up as florabella and other names known... If so, was this technically a breach and why they have never mentioned this woman's name? Because she was risking her job...?

Also on the subject of the name change.. apparently no records of deed poll are kept? Because I wonder, if thst is the case how did they discover in 2011 the actual date of Marion's name change, by which time 14 years had passed? Does this not mean some sort of record was found? Thanks in advance! I have probably heard these answers but went in one ear and out the other!

Someone Sally knew confirmed to her that her mothers passport had returned to the country. This caused lots of confusion, as at the time the name change was not known. But, we went on to find out (someone posted here) that each of Marions previous names were listed on the passport, so the customs officer could search Marion Barter and still come up with the name. This really surprised me, as she was flying as Florabella. The customs officer completely breached Marion's rights by revealing her travelling day. The information about the change of name came from the second police investigation. Garry Sheehan found the record. The change of name details would still exist, but be sealed for 100 yrs, as Bennythedog said. Garry Sheehan, however, could access the records as part of his police investigation. The revelation of this detail was again a serious breach of Marion's privacy. Garry took the information to Sally only to show her the extent of what had been going on prior to Marion leaving.

 

[Meligator]

Does anyone know/remember if information the bank employees provided to investigators was because someone at the bank actually reached out (called) Marion OR were bank personnel merely relaying information the learned when Marion came in to do banking? In other words, did the bank have a valid/reliable way to phone/contact Marion once she returned? That would suggest she had a somewhat stable residence—not just transient from hotel to hotel (unless she acquired a cell phone).

 

[Garyb]

I would bet 100% that whoever this friend is, doesn't have that job anymore. Customs/Airport Security/Border Patrol is serious business

To me this is part of the reason why there are people unwilling to help Sally anymore. Whilst understandable that she just wants to find out what happened to her mum, it seems that those that help are somewhat thrown under the bus when they don't agree with what she believes happened to Marion. The friend that gave her the customs details I'm pretty certain would be out of a job. The TSS guy didn't have nice things to say about the way he treated her and implied that she harassed Lesley this year. Gary Sheehan. Remakel etc.

At what point do we start to question the ethics of a podcast in what is essentially an un-regulated industry?

Completely agree, you dont have to read very hard between the lines of the NCAT decision to see she would have been given a lot more information if the podcast wasn't involved.
A recent post speculated about the lack of family involvement in her trip to the UK, no farewell party, dinner, no airport good byes or any excitment or knowledge of her travel plans. Made her own way to the airport etc by bus . No one seems to have even bothered to ask which airline she was flying on seems ia vauge thought it was JAL .
While i know she didn't want a ride to the airport, can you imagine allowing your mum to go overseas for a year without going to the airport to wave good bye.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Completely agree, you dont have to read very hard between the lines of the NCAT decision to see she would have been given a lot more information if the podcast wasn't involved.
A recent post speculated about the lack of family involvement in her trip to the UK, no farewell party, dinner, no airport good byes or any excitment or knowledge of her travel plans. Made her own way to the airport etc by bus . No one seems to have even bothered to ask which airline she was flying on seems ia vauge thought it was JAL .
While i know she didn't want a ride to the airport, can you imagine allowing your mum to go overseas for a year without going to the airport to wave good bye.

Agree, to not even ask more details like travel plans, hotel for contacting her, she was a women travelling alone and for a whole year, that would have to be unusually for any family not to have more details and be concerned about travelling alone. All very strange.

the podcast will be holding back info from the public, like the pilots name, so that people don’t approach them, ruin their line of communication with them, and to ensure they have the best chance of getting info out of them before they shut the door. The police approach is the same, they don’t want the podcast conducting the investigation or harassing people for now good reason.

Must be so hard for the police as they have to work within the law and at all times be mindful Marion could be alive and has every right for the police to enforce her privacy

 

[Garyb]

Agree, to not even ask more details like travel plans, hotel for contacting her, she was a women travelling alone and for a whole year, that would have to be unusually for any family not to have more details and be concerned about travelling alone. All very strange.

the podcast will be holding back info from the public, like the pilots name, so that people don’t approach them, ruin their line of communication with them, and to ensure they have the best chance of getting info out of them before they shut the door. The police approach is the same, they don’t want the podcast conducting the investigation or harassing people for now good reason.

Must be so hard for the police as they have to work within the law and at all times be mindful Marion could be alive and has every right for the police to enforce her privacy

Just had a look at the recent posts on the facebook page. Someone on here referred to the posters as "the cheap seats ". I have not read so much rubbish in a long time. Still rabbiting on about witness protection programs, police cover ups, murder and mayhem.
No concept of how Privacy laws work.

If Marion is still out there she possibly is now a step mum with step children and grandchildren. How would this all be affecting her. Imagine going to her husband and family to say she isn't the person they think.
Perhaps too afraid to walk down the street incase she is recognised!

 

[Meligator]

Agree, to not even ask more details like travel plans, hotel for contacting her, she was a women travelling alone and for a whole year, that would have to be unusually for any family not to have more details and be concerned about travelling alone. All very strange.

the podcast will be holding back info from the public, like the pilots name, so that people don’t approach them, ruin their line of communication with them, and to ensure they have the best chance of getting info out of them before they shut the door. The police approach is the same, they don’t want the podcast conducting the investigation or harassing people for now good reason.

Must be so hard for the police as they have to work within the law and at all times be mindful Marion could be alive and has every right for the police to enforce her privacy

I don’t think this was for a lack of Sally’s interest in Marion’s travel plans. It seems Marion didn’t have well-detailed plans of where she would be staying. She planned to visit different places & take a trip on the orient express. Sally can’t force her mother to establish a more refined itinerary.

 

[Meligator]

Just had a look at the recent posts on the facebook page. Someone on here referred to the posters as "the cheap seats ". I have not read so much rubbish in a long time. Still rabbiting on about witness protection programs, police cover ups, murder and mayhem.
No concept of how Privacy laws work.

If Marion is still out there she possibly is now a step mum with step children and grandchildren. How would this all be affecting her. Imagine going to her husband and family to say she isn't the person they think.
Perhaps too afraid to walk down the street incase she is recognised!

Just had a look at the recent posts on the facebook page. Someone on here referred to the posters as "the cheap seats ". I have not read so much rubbish in a long time. Still rabbiting on about witness protection programs, police cover ups, murder and mayhem.
No concept of how Privacy laws work.

If Marion is still out there she possibly is now a step mum with step children and grandchildren. How would this all be affecting her. Imagine going to her husband and family to say she isn't the person they think.
Perhaps too afraid to walk down the street incase she is recognised!

Not on Facebook, but all Marion would have to do is contact police and let them know she is alive, well and wants privacy. Their police investigation would stop. Sally might keep looking, but that is just the price a person pays for purposefully disappearing. A person has a legal right to privacy, but that right doesn’t extend to preventing family or others from searching for them.

 

[Sparkles5777]

Not on Facebook, but all Marion would have to do is contact police and let them know she is alive, well and wants privacy. Their police investigation would stop. Sally might keep looking, but that is just the price a person pays for purposefully disappearing. A person has a legal right to privacy, but that right doesn’t extend to preventing family or others from searching for them.

I just re-read the NCAT decision and I think it says that the police investigation into Marions disappearance isn't active. So she very well may have contacted them to say she is alive and well, and they just can't tell Sally. Which is maybe why a coronial inquest has never been held? Because they know she is alive.