Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[Mel 1303]

I don’t think we even know for sure that it was really the police who contacted Sally (didn’t Sally say the call she received from police wasn’t documented in the police file?). It’s possible Marion was alerted to the fact that Sally had contacted police/bank and had an imposter call Sally pretending to be the police.

We don't know for sure, however in Jack Wilsons letter to the Salvo's, he said that the police had told him that Marion had been identified at the bank, and that if he wanted to dig further, he should hire a private investigator and begin in Byron Bay. So it sounds like he followed up with the police. The Salvo's spoke of talking at length with the NSW police missing person unit, and they were satisfied that Marion walked away. In light of this, I would think that it was indeed the police who made the call.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Thinking about it ..... no, it can't have been an imposter who rang Sally saying they were from the Byron Bay police. I mean, they were going to get back to Sally, so if the call to Sally was from an imposter, the police would have also rung later and Sally would have said, "Wait, you rang the other day" ....

" In a matter of days I got a phone call from Byron Bay police. He told me that he had located my mum and she didn't want anyone to know where she is or what she was doing. I think I asked him more about where she was and how he found her, but he told me he couldn't give me any more information because Mum had indicated she didn't want contact with anyone" ....

 

[Garyb]

For arguments sake.. If Sally had accepted the word of the police in 1997 or not, have things now not changed. Supposing it could have been proven Marion had said she wanted no contact, is there not an argument to be made that the non sighting of an individual by anyone and in Marion's case no documentation of her under the name either florabella remakel or Marion barter trigger an investigation whereby the police would have reason to believe there was a high chance someone missing for such a long time was possibly dead? If that is then the possible case, it is not so much about whether Sally is told but about what the police can access. For example, would they now not have reason enough to request to look at deed poll records for a woman missing for 23 years? Surely anything still available cannot be held back due to Marion's privacy because the it does not stand the same if a person is dead and that is the whole point... they believe she may well have been murdered.

This is what needs to be determined first. Because they have nothing either way to suggest she is dead or alive they cannot release to Sally. But Idk how it works after. Even if Marion had said at the time she wanted no contact, surely if it became a murder investigation as opposed to a missing person's does that privacy law still apply even in death? At the very least the police should be now able to access everything and anything for a woman who has been untraceable for so long. Unfortunately, it won't be until they can be sure Marion is dead that they can release much to Sally... So in a roundabout way, the less they give her, it at least is going with the premise Marion is alive, because they have no firm evidence to suggest otherwise.

If the police suspect she is alive they can't release anything. Likewise if as it now appears they think she may be dead they can't release anything because it is being actively investigated.

 

[bje111]

For arguments sake.. If Sally had accepted the word of the police in 1997 or not, have things now not changed. Supposing it could have been proven Marion had said she wanted no contact, is there not an argument to be made that the non sighting of an individual by anyone and in Marion's case no documentation of her under the name either florabella remakel or Marion barter trigger an investigation whereby the police would have reason to believe there was a high chance someone missing for such a long time was possibly dead? If that is then the possible case, it is not so much about whether Sally is told but about what the police can access. For example, would they now not have reason enough to request to look at deed poll records for a woman missing for 23 years? Surely anything still available cannot be held back due to Marion's privacy because the it does not stand the same if a person is dead and that is the whole point... they believe she may well have been murdered.

This is what needs to be determined first. Because they have nothing either way to suggest she is dead or alive they cannot release to Sally. But Idk how it works after. Even if Marion had said at the time she wanted no contact, surely if it became a murder investigation as opposed to a missing person's does that privacy law still apply even in death? At the very least the police should be now able to access everything and anything for a woman who has been untraceable for so long. Unfortunately, it won't be until they can be sure Marion is dead that they can release much to Sally... So in a roundabout way, the less they give her, it at least is going with the premise Marion is alive, because they have no firm evidence to suggest otherwise.

Thanks - this is how I'm viewing it too - you articulated it better than I did

 

[bje111]

And I do not care what the law says, if my child vanished I would stop at nothing to learn why and where and if they were safe. Privacy laws be damned. My mother, not so much.

Yes!

 

[KiwiNZ]

I would be doing e

And I do not care what the law says, if my child vanished I would stop at nothing to learn why and where and if they were safe. Privacy laws be damned. My mother, not so much.

I would be doing exactly what Sally is doing, I wouldn't care about the law.

But Unfortunately its the polices job to enforce the law (not make the law) and in this very unusually case, its a very thin line they have to walk, they have to assess the consequences of getting it wrong to avoid been sued and also ensure that public confidence is retained. While we whom follow the case maybe lacking confidence in them with the handling, if they release private information that should not be release the back lash will be greater than that of the few people follow a podcast.

The best we can hope for now is they act on every piece of information they have, because it is better that they investigate it rather than the podcast, whom have no powers and seem to be struggling with their approach when they sniff a lead.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

When 'Marion' returned to Australia, I wonder if she hired a car from Brisbane airport to get around? I know records aren't typically kept that long, but you never know. I'd also be inclined to search insurance records to see if any cars weren't returned. For example, did she go missing before she could return car? It's a long shot but could give an indication of a timeline.

It's so frustrating that so much time has passed and that these things weren't looked into at the time.

It would have been easy to determine then if she hired a car not. Not hiring a car in her name would then mean someone was with her and used their name, or someone in Brisbane was transporting her around Byron, Lennox Heads and Grafton.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I would be doing exactly what Sally is doing.

Me too! I would have used the car money she was huffy about to hire the PI

 

[KiwiNZ]

When 'Marion' returned to Australia, I wonder if she hired a car from Brisbane airport to get around? I know records aren't typically kept that long, but you never know. I'd also be inclined to search insurance records to see if any cars weren't returned. For example, did she go missing before she could return car? It's a long shot but could give an indication of a timeline.

It's so frustrating that so much time has passed and that these things weren't looked into at the time.

It would have been easy to determine then if she hired a car not. Not hiring a car in her name would then mean someone was with her and used their name, or someone in Brisbane was transporting her around Byron, Lennox Heads and Grafton.

Agree, car hire, travel agents, hotels and shipping company would have given up information under the circumstance and with a little persuasions, and would have lead to the person or Marion.

I think at the time Sally was probably overwhelmed and didn't know what to do, not everyone thinks and processes issues in the same way. I have always been analytical and a good problem solver ( I lack in other areas lol) my friends have always turned to me to solve issues or ask how to approach a situation, to me its common sense but to them it doesn't come easily, so I can see why Sally may not have done what I would have in the same situation.

 

[Kelliepat]

I agree that the identification process would have been done properly, particularly once the bank was aware of the circumstances. It was done by a senior officer in the branch.

The police cant just ingnore the privacy laws just because Sally wants and a band of poor souls who cant see the through the sensationalism of the podcast think they should.

Unbelievable!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Anyone in the know out there. verified insider per chance .... can I have a clue please, about the magazine found in Los Angeles, it's making me crazy, it's all I can think about really, and I have so much stuff to do, it's piling up like Mount Everest, and yet .... please, oh merciful sleuther, just a clue .... I'm on the wrong tram aren't I, with the Freedom magazine, that's all propaganda mumbo jumbo, h'mm, I don't think that's it .... scientology/kenja, maybe though .... I've been good all year, granted only thee days, in but still, that's something ..... a clue, all I ask, a weee bonny little clue ....
Ooooh, sort of off topic, but I've become so interested in learning about scientology since this podcast ... found a podcast of a radio show speaking with people who have left scientology .... it's called Surviving Scientology, very enlightening and completely interesting, a radio show. End of spontaneous Friday night desperate tip plea ....

 

[Garyb]

Me too! I would have used the car money she was huffy about to hire the PI

Yes but they did hire a P.I. and he is very
Critical of Sally and Marion. He has the lost boys of TSS facebook page have a look at what he says. Certainly dont agree with everything he says but he has been involved from the beginning.

 

[Garyb]

Unbelievable!

Like it or not thats the law in our country.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes but they did hire a P.I. and he is very
Critical of Sally and Marion. He has the lost boys of TSS facebook page have a look at what he says. Certainly dont agree with everything he says but he has been involved from the beginning.

I think puzzles means hire a PI at the time, which i agree would have helped as it could have prompted avenues of enquirers that could have helped as info would have been fresh and accessible.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Anyone in the know out there. verified insider per chance .... can I have a clue please, about the magazine found in Los Angeles, it's making me crazy, it's all I can think about really, and I have so much stuff to do, it's piling up like Mount Everest, and yet .... please, oh merciful sleuther, just a clue .... I'm on the wrong tram aren't I, with the Freedom magazine, that's all propaganda mumbo jumbo, h'mm, I don't think that's it .... scientology/kenja, maybe though .... I've been good all year, granted only thee days, in but still, that's something ..... a clue, all I ask, a weee bonny little clue ....
Ooooh, sort of off topic, but I've become so interested in learning about scientology since this podcast ... found a podcast of a radio show speaking with people who have left scientology .... it's called Surviving Scientology, very enlightening and completely interesting, a radio show. End of spontaneous Friday night desperate tip plea ....

Puzzle what did they say/tease about the magazine? Sorry I remember hearing it but cant remember which episode or exactly what was said.

I wonder if it's something to so with the red square conference TSS hosted in 1995? At the annual conference there is a special award (Kurt Hahn prize) and the winner the year Marion was involved was a girl from a Californian school (the Athenian school). Im not sure if the girl was in attendance at the conference but perhaps Marion as one of the hosts presented the prize? There are 200 schools particiating in round square including Chadwick school in Los Angeles- perhaps they included a write up in their school magazine? A long shot but maybe?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes but they did hire a P.I. and he is very
Critical of Sally and Marion. He has the lost boys of TSS facebook page have a look at what he says. Certainly dont agree with everything he says but he has been involved from the beginning.

Yes - it was just so long after the fact. It's a shame it didn't work out with him because he appears to have been focusing in those things that have been previously posted about that would be good sources of information (the storage container, Marion's last known movements).

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Puzzle what did they say/tease about the magazine? Sorry I remember hearing it but cant remember which episode or exactly what was said.

I wonder if it's something to so with the red square conference TSS hosted in 1995? At the annual conference there is a special award (Kurt Hahn prize) and the winner the year Marion was involved was a girl from a Californian school (the Athenian school). Im not sure if the girl was in attendance at the conference but perhaps Marion as one of the hosts presented the prize? There are 200 schools particiating in round square including Chadwick school in Los Angeles- perhaps they included a write up in their school magazine? A long shot but maybe?

Oh Wowee, thanks Intrigued, that sounds like a lead to me, entirely brilliant, shall investigate tomorrow ... indebted, totally missed all that! Ah, Athena school is associated with Scientology .... whoa!!
The magazine found in a Los Angeles library is mentioned in Conversations 17 at 21.13

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I'm guessing the publication found in LA might be a Californian or international version of Le Courrier? Perhaps a similar ad was placed there by M F Remakel? That might suggest an organised effort to entrap and extort lonely women. I'm purely speculating and have no insider info whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

[/QUOTE] I think at the time Sally was probably overwhelmed and didn't know what to do [/QUOTE]

Not knocking Sally at all. I too would be overwhelmed and would probably blindly trust the authorities are doing everything they can.

What frustrates me is that Marion was dismissed, most likely, for being a woman over a certain age who was thrice divorced. Ironically, it is precisely these qualities that made her prime prey.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I double checked and yes assuming the person using Marion's bank cards was in fact Marion-which I personally think it was as I agree that it appears to be Marion's handwriting on her returning passenger card. . . I think Marion was doing what she wanted to until a certain point, then when she returned to Australia something got nasty and the pressure was being put on her from elsewhere. There is too much to do with money for me not to suspect she was being threatened in some way. For all we know she wanted no contact, to keep her family safe. Maybe he or she was threatening others besides Marion. I hope some day we will know.....

I agree. This is the clearest statement I've read of what I believe happened. She meets up with new "husband" or travels to UK with him. They return to get money with the promise of new life in Europe. She withdraws the money and/or begins to balk, is pressured or threatened. Death follows, either by suicide, disease, or murder. "Husband" gets the money and the scam/betrayal is complete. I also believe the Remakel ad is not a coincidence. Marion had demonstrated her weakness around men, over and over. She would have been easy prey.