Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[Sophie-Renee]

“What is the actual evidence the police have the account was closed down?”

Good point. Back track a bit. What evidence do WE have the account was closed?

“if it was closed like they say it was“

Who are ‘they’? Please provide a link to source, if you have one.

From being on this thread, I too was under the impression the account was closed. However I can’t seem to find a source for it, as is required by websleuths.

Unfortunately, as is the nature of this case- precious little hard evidence i.e in the case of of the passenger card- a legal document is one of a few exceptions, which we as websleuths have access to. The majority of information is from timelines, words of Sally, things police have allegedly reported back etc...this particular one comes from the 7 News timeline: (In 1998, the Salvation Army writes to Marion's father relating back where they got the idea she was "starting a new life.")

https://7news.com.au/original-fyi/t...line-of-marion-barters-disappearance-c-200848

Admittedly, it was 2nd, 3rd hand information, but through securities they obviously believed to be reliable enough , to justify not continuing a search. "They" then literally refers to all these agencies involved, such as police, the SA, the bank..albeit everything is not verified first hand by Sally or Jack which is where the "if it was" comes in. This invesitgation's main problem..the shear lack of hard, unrefutable evidence..something the police will hopefully find more of.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I realise this source does not mention the word "closed"- it is certainly spoken about in a much earlier episode a few months back- around the time of the Commonwealth/ Colonial merger and mix up in general being discussed. I will need to refer back to those, to hear it again more fully.

 

[madoodi]

Isn't this due to Privacy laws though? The police may very well have the exact information as to when and how it was closed but are unable to say. Just because WE don't have all the information, doesn't necessarily mean it isnt in the police file. Remember we technically aren't even supposed to know about Marions name change at all - NCAT redacted it in the files they released to Sally.

As the name change was not meant to be public information, could it be possible that Marion changed her name again, got a new passport and left the country?? I'm thinking a subsequent name change would also be redacted in thr NCAT files. JMO.
I remember Sally saying in the podcast a few times that Garry Sheehan said that Marions passport had not left Australia since the return, but of course that is that particular passport.
If you lose your passport and request a new one, is it a different passport number/expiry?

Me too. The comments made by the pilots ex-wife and the discussion about it make my skin crawl.

That's why I'm so glad the police have this new investigation. It will achieve an outcome that respects Marions privacy. I was really worried the podcast would smoke her out and treat her like poor Fernand.



It's a fact!
According to the NCAT document the majority of the police file (51 out of 99 documents) is either fully or partially withheld.

I think that, as with any investigation, that there is so much information that led police to draw the conclusions that they did that we are not privvy to.
My thinking now is that Marion could literally be anywhere. JMO.

A couple of things still puzzle me:
1. The mystery man seen with Marion at the service station (I think he is key but of course his identity is unknown); and
2. The crimestoppers tip off regarding Armidale that Sally mentioned in the podcast.

Any thoughts?

All JMO.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Every interpretation made here is opinion.

Peralta with many well explained reasons, saying that it is not proven Marion herself was at the bank is her (and im sure, many others) opinion. Me with my reasons, saying it was Marion is my opinion. Neither is, or can be, at this point proven.

The sources are very important. To support opinion you should provide a varied source not a variation of the same source. For example, an interview Sally gives to a magazine doesnt 'support' an opinion made by the podcast because it is the basis of the podcasts theories/opinions. They're two variations of the same source (a personal narrative retold in two different media).
Varied sources present a more supportive arguement for example the identification of Marion at the CBA and the identification of Marion at the Colonial Bank are two separate and independant sources of data regarding identity.

I *think* I understand. We can't claim it's fact when someone (magazine/podcast) simply repeats what someone else said (Sally) what they believe someone else told them (insert whoever Sally was ranting about) - because it could contain error or bias. Ideally, facts and evidence need to come from the horses mouth, someone official, or completely unrelated witnesses.

Your eg:
#1: Sally said, Jack said, that Salvos said, the police said, that the bank called Marion.
#2: Sally said, Salvos letter said, that police said, that the bank said Marion was identified withdrawing her money in 1990.

If I apply your source theory to:
#1 - Sally is the source as nothing that follows came from the horses mouth or has been confirmed by someone official.
#2 - Salvos is the source. We have a letter directly from Salvos that says they contacted police. The Salvos are the source as nothing that follows came from the horses mouth or someone official. And yes, our fear of error is there!

Lucky for us, we do have another source straight from the horses mouth AND someone very official - POLICE currently say Marion was last identified at a bus stop.

Given these sources, we CAN’T say “Marion was DEFINITELY identified by the bank”. We CAN say “Salvos DEFINITELY said the police said that the bank said Marion was identified”, and "Police DEFINITELY say Marion was last identified at a bus stop".

I hope I got this right. *insert shrugging emoji*

 

[Deleted member 249471]

As the name change was not meant to be public information, could it be possible that Marion changed her name again, got a new passport and left the country?? I'm thinking a subsequent name change would also be redacted in thr NCAT files. JMO.
I remember Sally saying in the podcast a few times that Garry Sheehan said that Marions passport had not left Australia since the return, but of course that is that particular passport.
If you lose your passport and request a new one, is it a different passport number/expiry?

I think that, as with any investigation, that there is so much information that led police to draw the conclusions that they did that we are not privvy to.
My thinking now is that Marion could literally be anywhere. JMO.

A couple of things still puzzle me:
1. The mystery man seen with Marion at the service station (I think he is key but of course his identity is unknown); and
2. The crimestoppers tip off regarding Armidale that Sally mentioned in the podcast.

Any thoughts?

All JMO.

From memory, Sally said Gary said Marion didn't change her name by deed poll again, thus assuming she never got a new passport under a different name. However, some here have said that NZ didn't require a passport in those years, so there is an example of a least one country she could have gone to without it looking like she left the country.

Lol, yes "Marion could literally be anywhere"

Agree, that mystery man would hold some answers! It's such a shame it's been 23 years since it happened... a witness would be unlikely to pop up now.

 

[sunnynz]

RSBM However, some here have said that NZ didn't require a passport in those years, so there is an example of a least one country she could have gone to without it looking like she left the country.
.

Australians and kiwis definitely needed passports to travel back and forth between the two countries in the 1990s. More detail here Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement - Wikipedia but basically we have free travel in the respect you don’t need a visa, and there’s an express passport line at immigration, but you do most certainly need a passport and the current arrangement has been in place since 1981.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

If Marion were still alive, I feel like someone -- even just one person out of all the people she would have come in contact with since her disappearance-- would get in touch with Sally or the media. Even anonymously. It would be a secret so big that I can't imagine there wouldn't be a leak.
Also, every time I look at Marion's face, I'm hit by how distinctive it is. She had a distinctive style and distinctive features. Which adds to my feeling that in all these years, she would have been sighted by someone who would cash in on the media attention, someone who wants to help Sally, or someone who wants to protect Marion from more coverage.

(PS. Thanks to all who answered my question about why you follow the mystery. Great answers.)

 

[Sophie-Renee]

If Marion were still alive, I feel like someone -- even just one person out of all the people she would have come in contact with since her disappearance-- would get in touch with Sally or the media. Even anonymously. It would be a secret so big that I can't imagine there wouldn't be a leak.
Also, every time I look at Marion's face, I'm hit by how distinctive it is. She had a distinctive style and distinctive features. Which adds to my feeling that in all these years, she would have been sighted by someone who would cash in on the media attention, someone who wants to help Sally, or someone who wants to protect Marion from more coverage.

(PS. Thanks to all who answered my question about why you follow the mystery. Great answers.)

2

I have thought the same many times. Marion does have what I would call quite prominent features. Her face generally seems quite defined that even if she had say some sort of surgery to change her features, because they started off quite distinct I think she would be more easily recognisable than many others.

The only other possibility of someone not knowing something about her, were if she lived a genuinely and completely reclusive life. However, this day in age the idea of what we might call a "recluse" is not very realistic. Assuming she did everything online such as her shopping.. what about the delivery guy who would very quickly clock up a number of visits and start to recogbise her name and face? The transactions would still be there, unless they were going through an account of a different name. She could live with someone, but not be on the electoral roll, phone book, on any bills or council tax.. not sure about the tax laws in Australia if all occupants need to be on the bill. Even then.. what about the neighbours... never sighted her in 23 years? She would need to move around....or live at no fixed abode.. live like a gypsy or in a caravan or on a boat all year round.. these are the only possible ways I think Marion could survive all this time without someone by now knowing her and coming forward... Even then, I think such existences can be ok for a short while but they don't really work out longer term. Marion would now be in her 70s. Maybe even needing some sort of home help or care, medical needs she needed the Dr for... I think someone who knew a woman in her 70s who spoke little about her family or kept so much to herself, would at very least check she was OK and be very worried if they recognised her from this podcast. Surely.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

That sounds logical. Worth pursuing if you can. Scientology is a big can of worms, ie. of disinformation and secrecy. I had a hairdresser once who went to great lengths to hide the fact from her clients (at least some of us) that she was a Scientologist. Had I shown sympathy or interest to it, she might have let her guard down. She let slip that her daughter went to a Scientology high school. When I followed that with a question, she quickly backtracked and said that, she (hairdresser) was not a Scientologist. It is a almost an impenetrable fortress.

Can of worms indeed .... if anyone's interested have a listen to Episodes 46 and 48 of Surviving Scientology podcast - Jon Atack speaking .... oh boy ....
PS: Perhaps Scientology should be renamed Give Me Money; or maybe Give Me All Your Money and Work for Nothin' .... just a thought, not as catchy as Scientology though. H'mm. Billion year Sea Org contracts .... merciful heavens, unbelievable, terribly sad though for those caught up in it .... just my opinion.

 

[Lea.B]

Can of worms indeed .... if anyone's interested have a listen to Episodes 46 and 48 of Surviving Scientology podcast - Jon Atack speaking .... oh boy ....
PS: Perhaps Scientology should be renamed Give Me Money; or maybe Give Me All Your Money and Work for Nothin' .... just a thought, not as catchy as Scientology though. H'mm. Billion year Sea Org contracts .... merciful heavens, unbelievable, terribly sad though for those caught up in it .... just my opinion.

The tv series Leah Remini - Scientology and the aftermath is also an eye opener!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Hey Itsapuzzple! You wrote this back in June -- "Hi Mel 1303, if I could just contribute my thoughts to your Question 4 .... that is the one that to me has imposter written all over it! According to Sally there was no rush to sell the car, just whenever, and when sold to deposit the money in account ... Sally never told her mum she sold the car, so it can only be something that was known by the mystery man .... he knew that mentioning Sally and the car was about as good a security pass as you could get .... hey, just my opinion...... now also the bank said they had contacted Marion by phone to confirm it was her! Really! She didnt have a house at that point, let alone a phone!! What phone number did they ring .... can't have been the Merinda Court Southport address because she didn't live there anymore .... hmmm .... just my thoughts at this point ...... really thinking there's something rotten here in the bank ....."

I agree with your points. When I heard the Marion-anger-car story, my first thought was that it was as you describe, a "security pass." So easy for Marion to have mentioned to someone (especially a man inquiring about her assets) that Sally would be selling a car and giving her the money. Add to that, that there is no record of WHO reported this conversation or where Jack hear it, it's just one of the many baffling red herrings of this case.

Yes, MrsEmmaPeel, I have changed my thoughts along the way with the podcast episodes arriving, each one has delivered updates, new information and alterations to previously held beliefs/leads. After Episode 13 I thought, no, can't be an imposter or banker. Here's a snippet from around 24 minutes in Episode 13
Bryan speaking here:
…. there has been a major development. We found out some significant new information. We now understand that Marion actually held accounts with the former Colonial State Bank, not the Commonwealth Bank. It was a financial organisation which merged with the Commonwealth Bank three years after Marion's disappearance....."

Then we had this statement from the Commonwealth Bank:
" .... having been provided with documents from Channel 7 we are able to confirm that these do not relate to the Commonwealth Bank, but do refer to an account accounts with the Colonial State Bank of New South Wales which in 1997 was an independent entity and had its own network of branches."
Then they say they're unable to discuss anything further about this due to their privacy obligations

Of course we don't know what those documents were that Channel 7 provided. I don't know, maybe Marion was transferring her CBA money into the Colonial Bank .... h'mm, got no idea ... but now thinking it'd be pretty hard to fool three different banks, especially over that three week period of withdrawals .... .... another thought, maybe the money was being transferred into a business via the internet, after arrangement with the bank ... so many possibilities.
Where I am now is thinking Scientology/Kenja or something similar, brainwashing .... who knows what I'll think after the next episode arrives

 

[Meligator]

From memory, Sally said Gary said Marion didn't change her name by deed poll again, thus assuming she never got a new passport under a different name. However, some here have said that NZ didn't require a passport in those years, so there is an example of a least one country she could have gone to without it looking like she left the country.

Lol, yes "Marion could literally be anywhere"

Agree, that mystery man would hold some answers! It's such a shame it's been 23 years since it happened... a witness would be unlikely to pop up now.

If what Garry said is true (no reason to doubt) that she didn’t change her name again after Florabella & didn’t use her passport again, then I think that means she is either deceased OR she was able to acquire and use an alternative (not legit) identity (e,g,. fake ID etc.). I don’t believe (just my opinion) that she could have continued using the Florabella identity and remain completely undetected.

If she did acquire an illegal identity, I wonder if doing so was not part of her original plan. Perhaps she intended to live as Florabella (hoping her family would assume she went missing in U.K.). Once However, once Sally started contacting the banks, Marion may have realized her Florabella identity was at risk & felt it wasn’t safe to access her money (UK,super).

Alternatively, she could have planned from the beginning to use the Florabella identity just for traveling, and then arranged to acquire an alternative ID once she returned. This seems like pretty sophisticated planning but who knows. ...

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yes, MrsEmmaPeel, I have changed my thoughts along the way with the podcast episodes arriving, each one has delivered updates, new information and alterations to previously held beliefs/leads. After Episode 13 I thought, no, can't be an imposter or banker. Here's a snippet from around 24 minutes in Episode 13
Bryan speaking here:
…. there has been a major development. We found out some significant new information. We now understand that Marion actually held accounts with the former Colonial State Bank, not the Commonwealth Bank. It was a financial organisation which merged with the Commonwealth Bank three years after Marion's disappearance....."

Then we had this statement from the Commonwealth Bank:
" .... having been provided with documents from Channel 7 we are able to confirm that these do not relate to the Commonwesalth Bank, but do refer to an account accounts with the Colonial State Bank of New iSouth Wales which in 1997 was an independkentl entity and had its own network of branches."
Then they say they're unable to discuss anything further about this due to their privacy obligations

Of course we don't know what those documents were that Channel 7 provided. I don't know, maybe Marion was transferring her CBA money into the Colonial Bank .... h'mm, got no idea ... but now thinking it'd be pretty hard to fool three different banks, especially over that three week period of withdrawals .... .... another thought, maybe the money was being transferred into a business via the internet, after arrangement with the bank ... so many possibilities.
Where I am now is thinking Scientology/Kenja or something similar, brainwashing .... who knows what I'll think after the next episode arrives

Apologies, I don’t follow. Can you elaborate on what you mean by there being three banks?

Lol, yes who knows what the next episode will bring

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I'm not much of a sleuth. I'm an old lady, a former English teacher and voracious reader of all kinds of novels and non-fiction. In Marion's story, I hear a narrative and hear characters, as if the story were being composed by an overarching being. For me, the story of Marion is about a romantic, vulnerable woman. Her lifelong career is no longer satisfying. Her children are grown. She's alone. Until she falls in love, with a man she believes is the real deal. He proposes to go along on the romantic trip to England Marion has always dreamed of. The plan, as he tells Marion, 1. is a secret trip to England where they will marry; 2. where they would retrieve Marion's money and then-- 3. move to Luxembourg to start her new married life. All very innocent and easy for a romantic woman to believe. You can imagine Marion in England holding her secret and planning to spring it on her loved ones. "I'm married! I'm moving to Europe! It's all good! Come visit!"

Instead, the man cancels the lifetime goal of the Orient Express. Tells Marion she's ruined everything.

In the novel playing in my head, Marion returns to Australia, crestfallen or maybe shaken. The marriage didn't happen in England. She tried to withdraw her England money and couldn't with the new name. The man loses his temper because she changed her name in advance. He says they must return to Australia. Marion imagines a short visit, a detour to her marriage. Perhaps she's even a bit suspicious but guilty too. She does what her fiance proposes and withdraws the bank money in preparation for the big move, waiting for his approval to contact Sally and Owen. Which never happens. . . .

The man gets what he wants. Marion is expendable. Or ashamed, Marion hurts herself. I don't believe Marion was a schemer, or a deserting mother. I don't believe she was a fool or was hurtful. I believe she is like most woman I know. A romantic whose heart led her astray. Novels (and my own life) are full of this narrative. The man who promises and then hurts. The woman who gets caught in a trap and can find no way out.

Delusion is powerful when we want to believe what we want to believe.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Apologies, I don’t follow. Can you elaborate on what you mean by there being three banks?

Lol, yes who knows what the next episode will bring

Elaborate, sure .... so there’s the Byron Bay branch, Burleigh Heads branch and Ashmore branch.

 

[sunnynz]

I’d love to get my hands on Marion’s email address if she had one. It would have been early days of email but amazing what shows up sometimes when you search an email address.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I’d love to get my hands on Marion’s email address if she had one. It would have been early days of email but amazing what shows up sometimes when you search an email address.

I believe Sally said her mum did not use a computer in one of the Podcasts

 

[Deleted member 249471]

*Nothing in this post is being claimed as fact or established*
*Active language is used to depict potential scenarios not true events*

A few theories people posted recently are very interesting! It has made me think what a potential timeline could look like:

BEGINNING

Marion changed her name to Florabella Remakel and moved to UK to be with a new partner she was not married to.

She went to ‘check it out’ first, hence why she did not send her shipping container and finalise her Australian bank accounts at that time.

While in the UK, she realised the new man she changed her name for, wasn’t worth it.

OR

Marion changed her name because she wanted to start new secret life - no real reason. She liked her family and could have cut them off now, but she didn’t.

Instead, she went on holiday to the UK and sent money over for her to use while travelling.

She could have cut off contact with her family now too, but she didn’t. She still cared and sent postcards and called to check Sally was ok.


MIDDLE

She returned to Australia and started preparing for her new life. For some reason she now cuts off family.

She withdrew her Australian money and used her Medicare for the last time.

At this point, she was able to retrieve her UK money but she chose not to, because who needs an extra $20k anyway?

Her secrecy was so important to her that during this time, she did not do anything that required ID - buy or rent a house or car, or use her passport. She declined any medical treatment because it’s too expensive without Medicare.

She didn't have a phone in her name but she did have a phone that she gave to bank and police so they could call her to make sure she was indeed who she said she was.

She lived in a sharehouse or boarding room, yet none of the people recognised her as the missing Marion Barter.

Her secrecy was was so good, Salvos found no trace of her in 3 years of searching.

Yet she possibly remained Marion/Florabella as late as 2007 as police said someone spoke to Marion, and that she still wanted no contact with her family.

Because the exposure to her case was rising, she chose to get a completely new identity, but fraudulently, not an official ID, and she has been living under that name ever since.

Because of this fraudulent name, police can no longer find her and she cannot access her superannuation.

Because of this new identity (albeit fake), she finally had access to modern coms that require ID - house, car, phone, Medicare, passport, etc.


END

However, she ran out of money, has no superannuation, and needed to work.

She couldn’t work in Australia because someone might recognise her. So she went overseas and has lived a relatively free life, without fear of being recognised. Until now?

OR

She stayed in Australia and managed to fraud her way into getting a government pension with her fraudulent ID.

In Australia, she has to live a reclusive life. For someone who 'loved love' and being around children, she is deeply unhappy that she can’t live an open life surrounded by people. But it is necessary to maintain secrecy.

…Secrecy for no real reason, but she thought it appropriate to change her name twice, get involved in fraud, and live a life she would have never have otherwise chosen for herself. Just because.


Lol, these scenarios of Marion disappearing of her own free will are such a stretch...

I know many think someone doing something to Marion is also a stretch. Yet we know outlandishly orchestrated fraud and corruption exists... The Keepers / The Teacher's Pet / Dirty John / Who the Hell is Hamish / Snowball just to name a few.

That Marion wasn't in a position to retrieve her UK money overseas or Australia is a real eye opener. I don't feel she was being secretive, she simply wasn't able to.

My biggest question is: Why did Marion change her name before going to UK? She could have done it after. This leads me to think she needed to have this name on passport and overseas for some reason. She never used the name upon her return to Australia.

 

[sunnynz]

I believe Sally said her mum did not use a computer in one of the Podcasts

With all due respect, sally also wasn’t aware that her mother had changed her name, got a new passport, traveled back into Australia, etc. Marion may have had access to a computer through work, library, a friend (maccas man?) that sally wasn’t aware of.

 

[KiwiNZ]

May be wrong but I don’t think anyone on this forum thinks it is a stretch that Marion has come to harm, I think everyone is opened minded about the possibilities.

If you only look at the few facts we have – Marion changed her name by deed poll, she travelled on the Florabella Passport to the UK, she returned on the Florabella Passport, she completed the entry visa as Florabella, and made no contact with her family – is it any wonder that voluntary disappearance isn’t a consideration ? everything else before after or in between is just us guessing.

I have no clue which of the scenario is correct and change my mind as more information comes to hand, or people put forward a good theory ​

*Nothing in this post is being claimed as fact or established*
*Active language is used to depict potential scenarios not true events*

A few theories people posted recently are very interesting! It has made me think what a potential timeline could look like:

BEGINNING

Marion changed her name to Florabella Remakel and moved to UK to be with a new partner she was not married to.

She went to ‘check it out’ first, hence why she did not send her shipping container and finalise her Australian bank accounts at that time.

While in the UK, she realised the new man she changed her name for, wasn’t worth it.

OR

Marion changed her name because she wanted to start new secret life - no real reason. She liked her family and could have cut them off now, but she didn’t.

Instead, she went on holiday to the UK and sent money over for her to use while travelling.

She could have cut off contact with her family now too, but she didn’t. She still cared and sent postcards and called to check Sally was ok.


MIDDLE

She returned to Australia and started preparing for her new life. For some reason she now cuts off family.

She withdrew her Australian money and used her Medicare for the last time.

At this point, she was able to retrieve her UK money but she chose not to, because who needs an extra $20k anyway?

Her secrecy was so important to her that during this time, she did not do anything that required ID - buy or rent a house or car, or use her passport. She declined any medical treatment because it’s too expensive without Medicare.

She didn't have a phone in her name but she did have a phone that she gave to bank and police so they could call her to make sure she was indeed who she said she was.

She lived in a sharehouse or boarding room, yet none of the people recognised her as the missing Marion Barter.

Her secrecy was was so good, Salvos found no trace of her in 3 years of searching.

Yet she possibly remained Marion/Florabella as late as 2007 as police said someone spoke to Marion, and that she still wanted no contact with her family.

Because the exposure to her case was rising, she chose to get a completely new identity, but fraudulently, not an official ID, and she has been living under that name ever since.

Because of this fraudulent name, police can no longer find her and she cannot access her superannuation.

Because of this new identity (albeit fake), she finally had access to modern coms that require ID - house, car, phone, Medicare, passport, etc.


END

However, she ran out of money, has no superannuation, and needed to work.

She couldn’t work in Australia because someone might recognise her. So she went overseas and has lived a relatively free life, without fear of being recognised. Until now?

OR

She stayed in Australia and managed to fraud her way into getting a government pension with her fraudulent ID.

In Australia, she has to live a reclusive life. For someone who 'loved love' and being around children, she is deeply unhappy that she can’t live an open life surrounded by people. But it is necessary to maintain secrecy.

…Secrecy for no real reason, but she thought it appropriate to change her name twice, get involved in fraud, and live a life she would have never have otherwise chosen for herself. Just because.


Lol, these scenarios of Marion disappearing of her own free will are such a stretch...

I know many think someone doing something to Marion is also a stretch. Yet we know outlandishly orchestrated fraud and corruption exists... The Keepers / The Teacher's Pet / Dirty John / Who the Hell is Hamish / Snowball just to name a few.

That Marion wasn't in a position to retrieve her UK money overseas or Australia is a real eye opener. I don't feel she was being secretive, she simply wasn't able to.

My biggest question is: Why did Marion change her name before going to UK? She could have done it after. This leads me to think she needed to have this name on passport and overseas for some reason. She never used the name upon her return to Australia.