Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[KiwiNZ]

QUESTION FOR YOU and then I'm off: Can the police question the doctor or review the files for Marion's visit? Have they the authority in Australia to do that?

I believe they can but would need authorization to do so, they would need to give weight of evidence on why they need to before it was granted, like with a warrant.

My take on this, first they were hinder by the bank ID - Marion's response confirming she was voluntary missing (assuming this happened) - police then have to back off.

Investigation is resuscitated - They then find the name change, the re-entry card and not contacting her family - this backs up the above first investigation - voluntary missing.

The police can not seek authorization to view someone's medical files when all of the facts point to voluntary missing. that would never get approved.

Fast forward, we now have that she didn't touch her super or retrieve the money from the UK, this may now be used as evidence that she is dead or come to harm, my assumption is these facts have opened the door a little more for the police as they can use this as evidence to investigate the case further, possible because even if they think she is voluntary missing, it likely she is also dead so there will be no repercussions for the police if they find she was voluntary missing. Of course now its likely to late to retrieve the Dr files, unless the timing with Gary and the super and UK money came to light and he used this information to retrieve them.

Above is just my take on this

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I have crazy theory, one that the people who feel bad for Fernand might like, because it doesn’t involve him

Could it be Marion changed her name, willingly (to random name, or only of meaning to her) so someone wouldn’t see her come back into the country? Who would be checking or alerted if she returned? A pilot perhaps?

But why didn’t she let her neighbour take her to airport? Could it be that someone was there so see that she definitely got on the plane? The same pilot perhaps? He might’ve even picked her up from the bus stop to make sure she didn’t run.

So maybe she was being forced out of the country for some reason. And she changed her name willingly to sneak back in and collect her money and belongings. She had enough time to take out her money and head to Grafton. But they found her.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Along with my LA magazine obsession, I'm still obsessing about the Tee-shirt Marion is wearing in the June 1997 photo. Does anyone know what the word is? I can see an AS, can't see anything else, and a bit of a signature. Still thinking what it says may have meaning .... or maybe not, but if anyone's interested have a look at the photo. Was previously mentioned by posters here that it looks like an Armani Tee-shirt, but don't know what it says.

PS: Tried to join the LA Library, hee, but e-card was not available for me in Australia .... ah well, I'm in there trying ....

 

[sunnynz]

Along with my LA magazine obsession, I'm still obsessing about the Tee-shirt Marion is wearing in the June 1997 photo. Does anyone know what the word is? I can see an AS, can't see anything else, and a bit of a signature. Still thinking what it says may have meaning .... or maybe not, but if anyone's interested have a look at the photo. Was previously mentioned by posters here that it looks like an Armani Tee-shirt, but don't know what it says.

PS: Tried to join the LA Library, hee, but e-card was not available for me in Australia .... ah well, I'm in there trying ....

it’s definitely an Armani jeans logo imo

 

[Itsapuzzle]

it’s definitely an Armani jeans logo imo

Thanks. What do you think the word is?
Added afterthought: Wait, the eagle's beak is facing the wrong way to be Armani, h'mm, and the Armani logo is more boxy square ....

 

[Itsapuzzle]

People can really deceive others. While Marion may have initially changed her name to Florabella with the intent of starting a new life, with a new partner , in a new country and intent on eventually telling her family..as much as anything else, on Marion's return the large withdrawals and then disappearance into what seems to be the abyss...could be to hide from the man himself whom she had planned to marry, just as much as hiding from anything else. The question of whether she would choose to hide from her family could have initially have been to protect them and then something or someone caught up with her anyway. Are there any refuge hostels or crisis centres in Australia where you can check in under an anonymous name and simply seek counsel? Could there have been a woman who did this in August/September 1997 ? I am guessing reports of concern would by law have to be sent to the police , but Marion could have checked in in haste somewhere for a day or so and then insisted on leaving, simply seeking somewhere for refuge? I wonder if use of the medicare card could have been someone insisting at the very least she see a doctor . Could a doctor then raise concerns with police without Marion's consent or with Marion's insistence she was allright? It may be very unlikely Marion would dare go somewhere like this for fear she would be made to go to a doctor or reveal details she did not want, however I don't think places like this have a right to detain anyone or call the police without hard evidence of a crime. Marion may have appeared to them, just shaken up or upset and refused to seek any therapy. At the very least, we know someone using Marion's Medicare card in September, needed treatment of some sort. Would someone using it illegally or even Marion herself, dare use it for something as small as a cold or general bug and risk being located?

Just re the Medicare card, it may have been someone/Marion wanting a prescription, repeat prescription, not necessarily "ill" ...

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Last thing for today, just re the pilot, still thinking he's got nothing to do with the saga, from what we've heard, but may be worthwhile sighting a photo of him from back in 1997 to see if he matches the description of the fellow in the car ..... just in case

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Along with my LA magazine obsession. . . PS: Tried to join the LA Library, hee, but e-card was not available for me in Australia .... ah well, I'm in there trying ....

Itsapuzzle, I had hoped you lived in LA I live in San Diego which is close. I can search my library database but not LA's. Is an e-card available for me? I could join and you could use? -- I had a thought for you. There are lots of Remakels in the US (and California.) Long ago immigrants from Luxembourg. What if the mysterious man were a Remakel but not Fernand? An American Remakel. I also wondered if maybe she met someone through the Scientologist school connection / award ceremony-- named-- wait for it. . . Remakel.

 

[Garyb]

QUESTION FOR YOU and then I'm off: Can the police question the doctor or review the files for Marion's visit? Have they the authority in Australia to do that?

The Doctors surgury closed down years ago. There has been extensive discussion on here about what records remain.
Dont know if it had closed by the time Garry Sheahan found out about it through Medicare records. I suspect not, otherewise they would be amougst the documents listed in the NCAT decision.
It seems the medicare records would just state the code for service and perhaps a brief definition like, short consultation.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Itsapuzzle, I had hoped you lived in LA I live in San Diego which is close. I can search my library database but not LA's. Is an e-card available for me? I could join and you could use? -- I had a thought for you. There are lots of Remakels in the US (and California.) Long ago immigrants from Luxembourg. What if the mysterious man were a Remakel but not Fernand? An American Remakel. I also wondered if maybe she met someone through the Scientologist school connection / award ceremony-- named-- wait for it. . . Remakel.

Yes, an American Remakel, highly possible. Oooh, that'd be great MrsEmmaPeel if you could check out your library for old magazines, say from 1997/98, wow, you have more chance than me of finding it over there. I guess if you have a San Diego library card you can access their electronic material online, not sure if I could use it though from here, probably not, it'd be great if you could have a look. So the ideas to search for so far from sleuthers are: Le Courrier International, Tunbridge Wells, Scientology, East Grinstead, Freedom magazine, Monsieur F Remakel ad, looking for love scam, special events in 1997/98 in UK, Luxembourg, Steiner Schools, Chadwick school, the name Florabella Remakel .... all I can think of at the moment, forgive my greed .... just if you get a chance, next time you're at your library or online, that'd be great, thanks MrsEmmaPeel, indebted

 

[KiwiNZ]

[

Last thing for today, just re the pilot, still thinking he's got nothing to do with the saga, from what we've heard, but may be worthwhile sighting a photo of him from back in 1997 to see if he matches the description of the fellow in the car ..... just in case

I have been searching LinkedIn, but with not much to go on that is difficult lol looking for a pilot for Cathay late 90's, now works for himself based in Malaysia (hope that correct ?) . Did think he could have had something to do with the Cathay mass sacking of pilots, the 49ers in 2001, but cant find a list of their names. Will keep on hunting

 

[Itsapuzzle]

[


I have been searching LinkedIn, but with not much to go on that is difficult lol looking for a pilot for Cathay late 90's, now works for himself based in Malaysia (hope that correct ?) . Did think he could have had something to do with the Cathay mass sacking of pilots, the 49ers in 2001, but cant find a list of their names. Will keep on hunting

Excellent sleuthing KiwiNZ, but I reckon The Lady Vanishes team would have a photo of him from around 1997, they'd be able to rule him in or out as the Macca's man you'd think.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Thanks. What do you think the word is?
Added afterthought: Wait, the eagle's beak is facing the wrong way to be Armani, h'mm, and the Armani logo is more boxy square ....

agree I don't think it Armani, unless its a really bad copy ;-)

 

[Deleted member 249471]

There is so much to this case and so many details that we can only speculate, with lack of hard evidence- but the earliest evidence is probably the most important bits right now as it can help explain the next occurence and what was going on. As far as we know there is no reason to disbelieve Marion was in fact in the UK - the first bit is when she returns. The police say the Novotel was checked, as mentioned by Intrigued..so presumably there are records from 1997. But what did they check- for Florabella, for Marion? If she booked in under a travelling companions name, can police rule out her staying there or is a check simply saying- we have checked- inconclusive..it's not been made clear.

If a Florabella or a Marion does not appear, were the checks made against all names that booked in for a 2 person room? Hotels never seem to ask names of all occupants, they just care about the name it is booked under and need the name of the person paying.
So, if Florabella or Marion didn't come up- the police line of enquiry with Novotel is surely not over...

Good question on wondering what checks were made.

There’s so much to consume and remember that I’ve missed this piece of evidence, that the police checked the Novotel.

Is anyone able to elaborate on what the police said exactly about the Novotel? And perhaps point the rest of us here who also missed it, in the right direction of the source?

 

[Meligator]

The Doctors surgury closed down years ago. There has been extensive discussion on here about what records remain.
Dont know if it had closed by the time Garry Sheahan found out about it through Medicare records. I suspect not, otherewise they would be amougst the documents listed in the NCAT decision.
It seems the medicare records would just state the code for service and perhaps a brief definition like, short consultation.

Episode 4, they mention that Sally tracked down Medicaid & private insurance receipts "finding out which medical procedures she'd had...." and there were no major health issues that could be identified. So yes probably would include brief descriptions (e.g., consultation), but would if Marion was experiencing a major health issue, there would likely be associated tests & procedures documented here (labs, scans etc)--which presumably wasn't the case. I'm not familiar with the Australian health care system -- the term "surgery" is throwing me off. I'm curious (if anyone knows), were these visits similar to a US walk-in/urgent care center OR appointments with her regular general practitioner? Would the appointment in Grafton have had to be scheduled days/weeks ahead of time?

 

[sunnynz]

Episode 4, they mention that Sally tracked down Medicaid & private insurance receipts "finding out which medical procedures she'd had...." and there were no major health issues that could be identified. So yes probably would include brief descriptions (e.g., consultation), but would if Marion was experiencing a major health issue, there would likely be associated tests & procedures documented here (labs, scans etc)--which presumably wasn't the case. I'm not familiar with the Australian health care system -- the term "surgery" is throwing me off. I'm curious (if anyone knows), were these visits similar to a US walk-in/urgent care center OR appointments with her regular general practitioner? Would the appointment in Grafton have had to be scheduled days/weeks ahead of time?

Doctor’s surgery just means doctor’s rooms. Where a GP would practice. You could get an appointment pretty quickly (same or next day), or schedule in advance if you needed to. From memory tat was what the place in Grafton was, as opposed to an urgent care/emergency rooms type place.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Some people are of the opinion that the pilot, Fernand, a bank employee, a police officer and BH of TSS had nothing to do with Marion’s disappearance, and that she left of her own volition or joined a cult. This is a very valid opinion they are 100% entitled to They may well be correct.

Personally, the more I look into it, I can’t see how Marion pulled off this massive 23 year feat of complete invisibility without some help from the aforementioned.

It would appear someone from the police kept fuelling the notion Marion had been spoken to, and stuck to this back in 1997 and again in 2007.

Source note: Gary says in ep 4 that as far as his investigation is concerned, Marion has not been seen or spoken to, nor has she ever been located.

Had the officer that kept saying someone spoke to Marion truly believed it was true, then someone was feeding him this bad information. The police were being lied to. But by who? The bank?

If no one was lying to them, then they were responsible for spreading this bad information.

Could they have benefited from it in some way? Were they protecting someone they knew? Or were they being blackmailed to say it?

I think Gary is awesome though. I believe he did the best he could with a very baffling case.

There's also the possibility that the perpetrators made it look like a romance scam or romance related to distance the real reasons and culprits. Very clever indeed.

Had Marion never changed her name but returned from the UK as herself then taken her money and disappeared, no one would be suggesting she ran off with a man or to a cult. It would look a hell of a lot more suspicious. Could this be the reason for the name change? Simply to obfuscate and cause confusion?

That’s my case thought of the day.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Had Marion never changed her name but returned from the UK as herself then taken her money and disappeared, no one would be suggesting she ran off with a man or to a cult. It would look a hell of a lot more suspicious. Could this be the reason for the name change? Simply to obfuscate and cause confusion?

Funny. I believe the exact opposite. And was having the exact same thought Had Marion kept her name and done exactly the same things, we possibly wouldn't be here. Or there wouldn't be as many posts! Her actions as Marion Barker would have clearly signaled intention NOT to be in touch, imo. Until time passed and there were no other signs of her leaving Australia, using her medical benefits, touching her investments -- only then might foul play be considered by Sally.

BUT, imo, the new unusual name and the mention of marriage (as I posted earlier) signal clear intention. They signal a belief in new life and big changes. Hot hiding. Not anonymity. Not even a desire to vanish. Had she intended that, the new name she chose would have been Smith or Jones. And she would not have indicated she were married, if she weren't.

Her ex-husband and others have vehemently stated Marion was not a schemer. She was not the kind of person who would or could have plotted a elaborate ruse to vanish. IMO the Occam's Razor explanation is face value. Marion changed her name because she was or believed she was married.

Even if the name change and boarding card were left unknown to us (due to poor detective work or whatever) we do have them now and they do point clearly to Marion's state of mind. Either she was married (or believed she was) or she was 100% delusionally mentally ill to imagine she were married to an imaginary man who matched her fanciful new name.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Funny. I believe the exact opposite. And was having the exact same thought Had Marion kept her name and done exactly the same things, we possibly wouldn't be here. Or there wouldn't be as many posts! Her actions as Marion Barker would have clearly signaled intention NOT to be in touch, imo. Until time passed and there were no other signs of her leaving Australia, using her medical benefits, touching her investments -- only then might foul play be considered by Sally.

BUT, imo, the new unusual name and the mention of marriage (as I posted earlier) signal clear intention. They signal a belief in new life and big changes. Hot hiding. Not anonymity. Not even a desire to vanish. Had she intended that, the new name she chose would have been Smith or Jones. And she would not have indicated she were married, if she weren't.

Her ex-husband and others have vehemently stated Marion was not a schemer. She was not the kind of person who would or could have plotted a elaborate ruse to vanish. IMO the Occam's Razor explanation is face value. Marion changed her name because she was or believed she was married.

Even if the name change and boarding card were left unknown to us (due to poor detective work or whatever) we do have them now and they do point clearly to Marion's state of mind. Either she was married (or believed she was) or she was 100% delusionally mentally ill to imagine she were married to an imaginary man who matched her fanciful new name.

It never occured to me that she might think she was married! Thanks

This makes a little more sense! I wonder then if her banks were ever changed to JOINT accounts? Omg!

On the other hand, and this is totally me, I’m not trying to convince anyone otherwise... yes, Marion has a history of changing her name when married - her surname. It is extremely out of character for her to change her given names even if she thought she was married. Changing one’s full name once married is very unusual practice in life and not the easier explanation to come to, moo.

Another thing that I think is suspicious is that on her passenger card, the tick to ‘married’ is larger than the other ticks. IMO the passport number and married tick was done by a different person than the other info.

I also don’t think the passenger card can be taken at face value. Marion said she was visiting family, yet that was untrue. What else on the card was untrue?

Despite all this, you may well be correct, and agree Marion herself was not the one scheming and secretly plotting.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

It never occured to me that she might think she was married! Thanks This makes a little more sense! I wonder then if her banks were ever changed to JOINT accounts? Omg!
On the other hand, and this is totally me, I’m not trying to convince anyone otherwise... yes, Marion has a history of changing her name when married - her surname. It is extremely out of character for her to change her given names even if she thought she was married. Changing one’s full name once married is very unusual practice in life and not the easier explanation to come to, moo.

However, it is in her character to romanticize life and be attracted to romantic things. ie: "if I'm moving to Luxembourg, I can change my name to Florabella just like my favorite Haviland china! How lovely!"

Another thing that I think is suspicious is that on her passenger card, the tick to ‘married’ is larger than the other ticks. IMO the passport number and married tick was done by a different person than the other info.

Interesting. Thanks!

I also don’t think the passenger card can be taken at face value. Marion said she was visiting family, yet that was untrue. What else on the card was untrue?

We don't know that she didn't plan to not visit family. She well may have planned to see her family before moving to Luxembourg, but Mr. New Husband may have had other plans. Again, the simplest explanation is to believe the boarding card, and really, to believe everything-- including that Marion did withdraw money, was (or believed herself) married, intended a short visit with family, planned to move to Luxembourg. UNTIL. . . .