Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[TootsieFootsie]

Law Enforcement

Who is LE?

 

[StarrChance]

Starting the rabbit hole...

Tunbridge Wells had a homeopathic hospital that is now closed.

The Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital

 

[sunnynz]

Starting the rabbit hole...

Tunbridge Wells had a homeopathic hospital that is now closed.

The Tunbridge Wells Homeopathic Hospital

Is there a way to search English and Australian newspapers from the 90s? Anyone know? I want to see if I can search for classified type ads in one or the other.

 

[Housemartyn]

I can imagine that poor Sally is regretting taking this very public route to hunt for answers. I feel sorry for her. Thinking about them at the doorstep of that elderly couple in Austria who didn't have a clue was was happening - the reporters with Sally in tow....

 

[Mememe21]

I can imagine that poor Sally is regretting taking this very public route to hunt for answers. I feel sorry for her. Thinking about them at the doorstep of that elderly couple in Austria who didn't have a clue was was happening - the reporters with Sally in tow....

I think so too, i see why Sally would have gone down the podcast route as a way to bring a lot more awareness, etc and hopefully increase her chances of finding her Mum, but Alison & Brian have done more harm than good in a lot of ways with their sloppy, unprofessional conduct. People who might have been willing to talk to Sally don't want to have anything to do with it in case they're treated the same as Mr Remakel.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Is there a way to search English and Australian newspapers from the 90s? Anyone know? I want to see if I can search for classified type ads in one or the other.

Trove

 

[Meligator]

This is purely from memory since I have no record of the original statement, but it said something like, “We have found that the Medicare records state that the appointment was in regards to a rectal tumour larger than 5cm”.

That’s not verbatim and is probably not 100% accurate. If anyone remembers it differently and can add corrections, please do.

Yes & they were basing this on a code (diagnostic code?) in the records.

So it’s possible they misread the code or that codes have since changed? Just a guess

 

[JLZ]

Yes & they were basing this on a code (diagnostic code?) in the records.

So it’s possible they misread the code or that codes have since changed? Just a guess

The codes have changed and it's awkward to find the explanation of the old codes. I couldn't see anything about a 5cm tumour or polyp. I saw something about whether or not such a thing exceeded 10mm ie 1cm. Perhaps an item explanation said removal of one or more polyps (or similar word) not exceeding 10mm, they misread mm as cm and decided to call it 5cm as a simplifying approximation in the middle of the field.

 

[PotterHead]

I think so too, i see why Sally would have gone down the podcast route as a way to bring a lot more awareness, etc and hopefully increase her chances of finding her Mum, but Alison & Brian have done more harm than good in a lot of ways with their sloppy, unprofessional conduct. People who might have been willing to talk to Sally don't want to have anything to do with it in case they're treated the same as Mr Remakel.

I really doubt that Sally is regretting any of this. Without the podcast, nothing would have happened. When you get help from the media you realise that you are relinquishing some of your privacy. But the benefit she is getting is far greater than the cost to her or Marion's privacy.

I also don't understand why people are so outraged about the team's visit to Luxembourg (not Austria). There was nothing disrespectful about their approach. I am very familiar with the culture, it did not breach any cultural norms. Yes, more formality is to be expected but that is overridden by the nature of the situation. A woman is missing, her daughter is on your doorstep. At the very least a normal person would be empathetic and concerned. What became suspicious about the encounter was Mr Remakel's reluctance to give straight up answers. The same on the phone, he was evasive and more concerned with how someone had knocked on his door, than with the fact that a woman is missing. All of this is bizarre and cannot be accounted for by references to culture and politeness.

In a case like this, you also have to go with occam's razor. It is highly suspicious that an individual with the initials, age and description of Mr Remakel appears in a newspaper distributed in Australia (and potentially elsewhere but we can't know), an individual matching everything lives in Luxembourg, Marion changes her name, of all the names in the world, to Remakel and lists her country of residence as Luxembourg. There are too many 'coincidences' for this to be a coincidence. But time will tell, it sounds like the investigators are looking into this.

Did you guys see the photos of the arrival cards on Facebook. To me, it was definitely Marion who returned to Australia, and not an 'imposter'. The handwriting of the earliest card (Wilson) and the last one matches. The middle one could have been filled out by someone she was travelling with at the time. Handwriting matching is not an exact science but you have to look for points of similarity. In this case, you can clearly see that the number 5, the letter A and the letter L are very similar. The L in particular is quite distinct in both sets of handwriting.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yes & they were basing this on a code (diagnostic code?) in the records.

So it’s possible they misread the code or that codes have since changed? Just a guess

Thanks Meligator. Hadn't realised they were basing their tumour/suicide theory on a code. Presumably from the medical receipts Sally has kept?

Wow. So yes, it seems like their redaction was purely because they realised they made an error interpreting the code. Big oops indeed.

 

[Housemartyn]

There was everything wrong about the approach to the elderly couple in Luxembourg. I would be extremely affronted if I answered the door and found 3 people with cameras and microphones thrust at me firing out questions in a foreign language! Very unprofessional to say the least. And then, to be followed up with that terrible shouting phone call from the female reporter was outrageous!

 

[Mememe21]

Yes i totally understand why Sally went down the podcast route and agree that without it, she wouldn't have been able to raise anything like the awareness she has. In that way it's great. I wasn't referring to Sally's privacy in saying there has been damage done, but that if anyone does have information that may be able to help they'd understandably (in my opinion) be reluctant to come forward for fear of being thrown under the bus.

I think the way Mr Remakel was treated was disgusting, not just in the initial approach but afterwards even more so. I would react exactly the same way as him if i was put in that situation.

 

[PotterHead]

I don’t know. Still seems weird to me that a person won’t want to help and clear their name. They sent him questions twice in writing (which would have afforded him the opportunity to go through things in his own time). He didn’t even reply, claiming he didn’t receive them and that they couldn’t prove he had. That sounded like an outright lie - why couldn’t he just say, I don’t want to answer any questions. And he was so fixated on Sally in that phone call. Just super weird stuff.

I think if that happens to you and you have a not so welcoming reaction at first, when you see your name being thrown around on the internet in connection to a missing person, and you think the way you’re being portrayed is unfair, you’d want to put the record straight by giving some basic facts. That’s just a normal reaction. Innocent people usually have little to hide.

 

[Mememe21]

Yeah i'm not sure, to me his reaction was totally reasonable but that's just my opinion...none of us know his reasons for responding the way he did - guilt or feeling attacked? Who knows.

On the passenger cards, yes i think it was Marion who came back on the flight too, there are too many similarities in the handwriting to be someone else.

Aaargh, I've changed my mind about what happened to Marion so many times throughout this podcast! I have no idea what to think!

 

[Garyb]

I don’t know. Still seems weird to me that a person won’t want to help and clear their name. They sent him questions twice in writing (which would have afforded him the opportunity to go through things in his own time). He didn’t even reply, claiming he didn’t receive them and that they couldn’t prove he had. That sounded like an outright lie - why couldn’t he just say, I don’t want to answer any questions. And he was so fixated on Sally in that phone call. Just super weird stuff.

I think if that happens to you and you have a not so welcoming reaction at first, when you see your name being thrown around on the internet in connection to a missing person, and you think the way you’re being portrayed is unfair, you’d want to put the record straight by giving some basic facts. That’s just a normal reaction. Innocent people usually have little to hide.

But why would he need to put the record straight?

He has a camera crew turn up at his door asking questions he has no idea about. He recieved aggressive emails and phone calls from Australia.

He isnt asked to put the record straight by a court of law, but from a media podcast from an organisation on the other side of the world.

What would you do if a news crew from Luxemburg turn up at your door and accursed you of being involved in the disappearances of someone 23 years ago. You would call the police to get rid of them as he did.

 

[Suglo]

I don’t know. Still seems weird to me that a person won’t want to help and clear their name. They sent him questions twice in writing (which would have afforded him the opportunity to go through things in his own time). He didn’t even reply, claiming he didn’t receive them and that they couldn’t prove he had. That sounded like an outright lie - why couldn’t he just say, I don’t want to answer any questions. And he was so fixated on Sally in that phone call. Just super weird stuff.

I think if that happens to you and you have a not so welcoming reaction at first, when you see your name being thrown around on the internet in connection to a missing person, and you think the way you’re being portrayed is unfair, you’d want to put the record straight by giving some basic facts. That’s just a normal reaction. Innocent people usually have little to hide.

I respectfully disagree. If someone from Norway showed up at my parents’ house here in the US asking weird questions about someone we knew nothing about I would tell them to shut the door and call the police the next time they bother you. My parents don’t have the wherewithal to go on the internet and figure out that there’s a popular podcast going on in Norway and that some reporter got a hold of their last name which may or may not be related to a missing person’s investigation there in Norway. It's not like they came to his door with proof that he had a relationship with Marion. They found an ad with a name similar to his and they think Marion may have seen the ad but have no proof that she did. I can’t even imagine what was going through his head. He doesn’t have to prove his innocence to anyone. That’s ludicrous as is the whole scenario they cooked up for ratings, IMO.

 

[Mememe21]

I think that's what gets me about the podcast team's whole approach to everything - they carry on as if they are ENTITLED to information about whatever they want. They are not entitled to anything. In the phone call to Fernand, Alison even told him she is like the police! They were outraged that the commonwealth bank wouldn't give them detailed info about identity verification procedures. Procedures that if they were publicly known, would increase the chances of fraud being committed. In the most recent episode Alison made snide remarks about the police or OIC not sending through a courtesy "we are working on your file" update in the midst of COVID-19 and easter. They would do well to remember that not everything revolves around their podcast! It's tragic and heartbreaking that Marion is missing but i'm sorry, there is still a bigger picture here.

 

[PotterHead]

But why would he need to put the record straight?

He has a camera crew turn up at his door asking questions he has no idea about. He recieved aggressive emails and phone calls from Australia.

He isnt asked to put the record straight by a court of law, but from a media podcast from an organisation on the other side of the world.

What would you do if a news crew from Luxemburg turn up at your door and accursed you of being involved in the disappearances of someone 23 years ago. You would call the police to get rid of them as he did.

Totally get that. I do feel sorry for his poor partner, it’s not her fault. It would be really worrying if someone turned up asking your loved one strange questions. It’s the aftermath I find bizarre with him claiming he didn’t receive the written questions which were sent to him twice with registered mail and that someone else must have signed for one of them ??? From what I can find they don’t have his email address so I’m not sure where the claim of agressive emails has come from. I disagree that the crew were “agressive” during the visit or on the phone call. On the phone call I think Alison was just frustrated that he just wouldn’t give a straight answer. Why not? Why not just say, honestly I’ve never heard of Marion, this is where I was in 1994, this is where I was in 1997, I don’t have any contacts in Australia, this has bewildered me. He can even just say, look I’m happy to talk to the police here, I’m happy to write to the Australian police. But he’s just not forthcoming, like he has no empathy that a human being is missing and his link has to be eliminated.

I truly believe he may have nothing to do with it all. Or even if he did know Marion, doesn’t mean he had anything to do with what happened to her in the end. We just don’t know what happened. But I do think he’s wasting people’s time if he is innocent and is more concerned with himself than with helping someone else (even if that’s by just letting people move on to other leads).

But with all that, completely understand and respect others’ perspectives : )

I still think based on the arrival cards handwriting that Marion returned to Australia. I don’t believe there was identity fraud. I wonder if she arrived on her own. Are flight manifests kept this long?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I have to keep reminding myself that the podcast is made by a TV channel. Their news and current affairs tends to be 'tabloidy'. They chase people, door knock and shove cameras in peoples faces just for the million dollar shot.

So why they are using cringeworthy TV tactics for a podcast is beyond me.

Although at least someone is trying to tell Marion's story, and where it falls short, their listeners have uncovered some incredible leads.

Having said all that, we know there is no one standard acceptable response to anything. There are countless studies on it. Flight or fight responses make us behave weirdly at the best of times.

Proof of how little Fernand's reaction is indicative of guilt or innocense is that it would never be used in court. However, the way Alison and Bryan behaved could end up in court for defamation. Something tabloid news is usually willing to risk for the sake of capturing juicy drama.

The one thing from the Luxembourg trip that, if true, could potentially be valuable, is that Sally recognised a lamp in Fernand's house that looked like Marion's. It was a Laura Ashley lamp.

So there's that.

 

[poppypopcorn]

Back to the codes thing.... I have been through this with private health care in the UK. Your doctor writes down that you need procedure GYN567 and you call the insurer and they say it's a hysterectomy or whatever. In order for the "massive tumour" to be confused with "colonoscopy" the codes would have to be similar - a 8 mistaken for a 0 or a L for a I or similar. If the two codes were totally different then how could that even happen? Unless of course a ABC123 code meant one thing in 1997 and something totally different in 2020.

But either way, you'd expect a decent investigative journalist to get to the truth of it all.

On the homeopathic hospital - until not so long ago the NHS in the UK was funding homeopathic treatment. There was a public, free, NHS homeopathic hospital here in Glasgow too. The Tunbridge Wells hospital was a NHS facility. The UK and Australia have a reciprocal health agreement in that if an Australian citizen falls ill in the UK they can access NHS treatment on the same basis as a UK resident. However this is for emergency treatment or accidents - you can't get diagnosed with something in Australia, pitch up and expect the NHS to treat you. However, it would be entirely plausible for Marion to visit a hospital's emergency department while in the UK, have scans, tests or whatever, get a diagnosis and return home for confirmation of that or treatment. As an Australian she would have been treated under reciprocal rules and there probably wouldn't be a paper trail - especially not after so long.