Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[poppypopcorn]

On the travel to Luxembourg thing. Luxembourg is tiny. Like really small, flights do go there but it's in no way a major hub. Little planes, flights to other places in Europe. Mostly business travellers.

International travellers trying to get to Luxembourg would fly to Brussels, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and travel onwards from there. Or spend some time in the UK and go through the tunnel. From Ashford in Kent, the travel time to Brussels in Belgium is under 3 hours. Then another couple of hours in the car in and you're in Luxembourg.

There is understandably lots of confusion about her travel plans. But the idea that she flew Aus - Asia - Luxembourg is a non-starter. Just to add to the confusion, back in 1997 the UK government did not check passports of anyone leaving the UK, whether on UK or other passports. So had Marion jumped on that train with her Australian passport, there would be no record of that. They would have to check for any occasions where she had re-entered the UK after the initial arrival at Heathrow.

 

[Meligator]

On the travel to Luxembourg thing. Luxembourg is tiny. Like really small, flights do go there but it's in no way a major hub. Little planes, flights to other places in Europe. Mostly business travellers.

International travellers trying to get to Luxembourg would fly to Brussels, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and travel onwards from there. Or spend some time in the UK and go through the tunnel. From Ashford in Kent, the travel time to Brussels in Belgium is under 3 hours. Then another couple of hours in the car in and you're in Luxembourg.

There is understandably lots of confusion about her travel plans. But the idea that she flew Aus - Asia - Luxembourg is a non-starter. Just to add to the confusion, back in 1997 the UK government did not check passports of anyone leaving the UK, whether on UK or other passports. So had Marion jumped on that train with her Australian passport, there would be no record of that. They would have to check for any occasions where she had re-entered the UK after the initial arrival at Heathrow.

For sure, I just am not convinced she definitely flew into London. Marion says she flew to London, but in the absence of corroborating tickets/flight records, her reference to London could be an intentional misdirection. Same for the Tokyo stationary. Perhaps no particular intent to mislead on Marion’s part, but the stationary did make everyone assume she flew to Tokyo & not Seoul. In other words, if she was trying to misdirect, it worked.

 

[madoodi]

For sure, I just am not convinced she definitely flew into London. Marion says she flew to London, but in the absence of corroborating tickets/flight records, her reference to London could be an intentional misdirection. Same for the Tokyo stationary. Perhaps no particular intent to mislead on Marion’s part, but the stationary did make everyone assume she flew to Tokyo & not Seoul. In other words, if she was trying to misdirect, it worked.

Hopefully the details of her trip will become clearer at the inquest.
I don't believe that just because she had the Narita stationery that she was necessarily there. Like someone mentioned up thread ~ she could have gotten it from someone when simply just asking someone for some paper. Or I'm not sure how much she had traveled before, perhaps she had been there previously.
We just don't know for sure where she went and if she was actually in the UK or not. I always think, if she did go there, why such a short time? What made the trip so short?
Another thought is that she had accompanied someone on a business trip. This could account for the seemingly short stay in the UK.

JMO IMO

 

[Estelle]

It appears that Marion was in a very vulnerable situation in the months before she left Australia. She had a toxic relationship with her family and was shamed in her workplace so she wanted to escape overseas. Possibly she thought a fourth marriage was the answer especially with someone living overseas.

So she could have searched the dating ads for someone looking for marriage and found Remakel. Even if he used an Australian PO Box, it does not mean he was actually living in that area. So letters and photos were exchanged and he promised her the world but she would have to meet him in Luxembourg or wherever. After he had motivated Marion with the idea of marriage overseas, he could have told her he had a friend here who would look after her here and travel with her (the man seen at McDonalds). Remakel and this guy could have been part of a network of dating scammers.

So this guy could have assisted her to sell her house, change her name and passport, make the travel bookings, sit next to her on the plane and give her the Narita stationery so she could write to her family, even could have posted those cards from the UK and stole her passport and airline tickets without Marion knowing to give to another member of the team who was a woman. This woman could have posed as Marion using her passport to visit Australia to get the money from Marion's bank account but left Australia using her own passport.

It appears to me that there could have been three players in this dating scam to be able to pull it off so successfully.

Could this have happened?

 

[KiwiNZ]

It appears that Marion was in a very vulnerable situation in the months before she left Australia. She had a toxic relationship with her family and was shamed in her workplace so she wanted to escape overseas. Possibly she thought a fourth marriage was the answer especially with someone living overseas.

So she could have searched the dating ads for someone looking for marriage and found Remakel. Even if he used an Australian PO Box, it does not mean he was actually living in that area. So letters and photos were exchanged and he promised her the world but she would have to meet him in Luxembourg or wherever. After he had motivated Marion with the idea of marriage overseas, he could have told her he had a friend here who would look after her here and travel with her (the man seen at McDonalds). Remakel and this guy could have been part of a network of dating scammers.

So this guy could have assisted her to sell her house, change her name and passport, make the travel bookings, sit next to her on the plane and give her the Narita stationery so she could write to her family, even could have posted those cards from the UK and stole her passport and airline tickets without Marion knowing to give to another member of the team who was a woman. This woman could have posed as Marion using her passport to visit Australia to get the money from Marion's bank account but left Australia using her own passport.

It appears to me that there could have been three players in this dating scam to be able to pull it off so successfully.

Could this have happened?

you can not enter a country on one passport and leave on another - that doesn't mean to say someone didn't try and was caught but the connection not made to Marion. I once flew to Aus from New Zealand on my NZ passport and tried to leave to the UK on my British, I didn't get far lol I also had to prove how I entered the country in the first place.

The Ramakel ad was 4 years earlier but again doesn't mean he did not advertise somewhere else that we haven't picked up

Generally a scammer does just do this once, and a team of scammer definitely wouldn't, there must have been others caught in their sting if this was the case, just wish e could at least find someone whom had a similar experience around the at time.

 

[Estelle]

That's strange because my girlfriend told me that she uses her Australian passport when flying to Australia and her UK passport when she flies back to the UK.

I just google this and found:

Entering and leaving Australia
If you have a passport from another country for example; a British passport, you can use this for your return to the United Kingdom, but you will need your Australian passport for travel to Australia when departing the United Kingdom and entering Australia.

Travel Advice For Dual Nationals.

So I have interpreted this to mean that this scammer could have arrived in. Australia on Marion's passport and departed on their own passport.

 

[Estelle]

Also how do you know that a scammer does this only once? As long as they get away with it, they seem to keep on doing it. Nigerians often work in teams (not that I think Nigerians were involved in this case). I have watched many UTube videos concerning dating scams and different tactics are used in each case.

 

[KiwiNZ]

That's strange because my girlfriend told me that she uses her Australian passport when flying to Australia and her UK passport when she flies back to the UK.

I just google this and found:

Entering and leaving Australia
If you have a passport from another country for example; a British passport, you can use this for your return to the United Kingdom, but you will need your Australian passport for travel to Australia when departing the United Kingdom and entering Australia.

Travel Advice For Dual Nationals.

So I have interpreted this to mean that this scammer could have arrived in. Australia on Marion's passport and departed on their own passport.

Strange ...this happened to me in the late 90,s so it may have changed. Also I was not a Australian citizen or living in Aus. Maybe that’s the difference ?

New Zealand law below

If you hold two passports, you must travel on the same passport in both directions of travel so that your immigration records are correctly updated at both points of departure and arrival. For example, if you are entering New Zealand on an Australian passport, you need to show that same passport when leaving New Zealand and entering your country of destination.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Also how do you know that a scammer does this only once? As long as they get away with it, they seem to keep on doing it. Nigerians often work in teams (not that I think Nigerians were involved in this case). I have watched many UTube videos concerning dating scams and different tactics are used in each case.

Sorry that was a typo I was ment to say they normally do it more than once .... it’s like a job to them

 

[KiwiNZ]

That's strange because my girlfriend told me that she uses her Australian passport when flying to Australia and her UK passport when she flies back to the UK.

I just google this and found:

Entering and leaving Australia
If you have a passport from another country for example; a British passport, you can use this for your return to the United Kingdom, but you will need your Australian passport for travel to Australia when departing the United Kingdom and entering Australia.

Travel Advice For Dual Nationals.

So I have interpreted this to mean that this scammer could have arrived in. Australia on Marion's passport and departed on their own passport.

Found it, this would apply to non Australian passport holders this is why I had an issue

If you are a citizen of 2 or more countries other than Australia, you must use the passport you used when applying for your visa for both entering and leaving Australia. If you present a different passport, you may be refused boarding on flights to Australia by your airline, or experience significant difficulties travelling to Australia.

 

[Estelle]

If the scammers had been able to steal Marion's passport, that would be how the female scammer would be able to enter Australia without having to apply for a visa. As long as she had the same colour hair as Marion, no questions would have been asked as they did not have face recognition then. But I must say over 10 years with the one passport, my hair colour has changed and nothing is said.

 

[madoodi]

I just wish there was someone who could come forward and say " I saw her in England" or something...
I can't remember, but did Sally say it was definitely her mum's handwriting on the postcard?

JMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

NoCookies | The Australian

<modsnip: Direct quotes or copy/paste of content or images from a paywalled article is a violation of copyright law>

She looks a lot better now. She's really quite a beautiful looking lady.

I guess we need a thread for her.

She is not Marion

 

[Loxoli]

NoCookies | The Australian

<modsnip: Direct quotes or copy/paste of content or images from a paywalled article is a violation of copyright law>

She looks a lot better now. She's really quite a beautiful looking lady.

I guess we need a thread for her.

She is not Marion

I wonder if they have ruled Marian Wallace (Mim) out? The article says that they are confident she is not any of the names that have been provided, so that could mean no?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I just wish there was someone who could come forward and say " I saw her in England" or something...
I can't remember, but did Sally say it was definitely her mum's handwriting on the postcard?

JMO

Although sadly nobody has yet come forward to say they remember Marion being in the UK in 1997 her letter home is a strong indication that she did come to the UK in June 1997 as she mentions the amount of rain, and my did it rain in the South East of England in late June that year. Only 1 match was played at Wimbledon in 2 days. Whilst anyone might have bought the postcards at Alfriston, Tonbridge, Brighton, etc, it is definitely Marion’s handwriting on them. All things considered I’m 99.99% certain she was in the UK. The questions are how long and exactly where?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I have a suspicion Marion might have remarried at a Registry Office in the UK in June/July 97 using a false name without a Deed Poll change. Possibly a Benelux name again related to the previous one. The checks carried out at Registry Offices in the UK in 1997 were poor and few records kept. You wouldn’t need to be a criminal mastermind to fool Council/Registry officials.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It's not so surprising that no one in the UK has come forward. How many people did she actually know there.
People may have seen her but who remembers a stranger, especially when asked to recall many years later.

 

[Meligator]

Given that there is no record (aside from passenger cards) of a Florabella Remakel, Marion must have either passed away shortly after returning to au OR she assumed a completely new identity —one that is not simply a name change. I suspect the latter & think the name change to Florabella was part of a larger plan to misdirect. There isn’t any good explanation for her to change her name to Florabella (what purpose did it serve?). She never assumed that identity. Plus, if someone really wants to disappear, changing name by deep poll would somewhat defeat that purpose (the authorities know who you are).

Perhaps she used Florabella name to acquire (purchase) documents for a new identity?

It might be good to look into how, in 1997, someone could research ways to acquire a new identity & how people successfully did that in Australia

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Given that there is no record (aside from passenger cards) of a Florabella Remakel, Marion must have either passed away shortly after returning to au OR she assumed a completely new identity —one that is not simply a name change. I suspect the latter & think the name change to Florabella was part of a larger plan to misdirect. There isn’t any good explanation for her to change her name to Florabella (what purpose did it serve?). She never assumed that identity. Plus, if someone really wants to disappear, changing name by deep poll would somewhat defeat that purpose (the authorities know who you are).

Perhaps she used Florabella name to acquire (purchase) documents for a new identity?

It might be good to look into how, in 1997, someone could research ways to acquire a new identity & how people successfully did that in Australia

The odds of Marion changing her name to the same initials as the guy we can’t mention are very big indeed. I just can’t believe this is coincidence. Whether this was to gain easier access to bank accounts or for some other reason I’m not sure.

Did Marion ever return to Australia? I understand why some think she did. My own view is she didn’t but remained in mainland Europe either by choice or more likely under duress using yet another name.

I just keep thinking there was a bogus marriage at some point in that period she came to the UK. The Orient Express was part of the set up that was never to be.

 

[Estelle]

My opinion is that Marion was manipulated from the very beginning by a marriage scammer who had no intention of ever marrying her and instead wanted her money and she was murdered in the same year that she left Australia just after that last phone call.