Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[PhilOlivettifan]

I think it's strange that someone (Marion or a third party) began draining the bank account in $5,000 increments and then at some point was just like, you know what, let's just go for gold and withdraw $80,000 in one go. I know there's speculation that this was somehow done via making some kind of equity purchase but why even bother doing something that is likely to flag suspicion and then throw in the original plan to make a giant withdrawal? It seems poorly thought out for a con scheme, although admittedly it did work so

Do you know when that 80k was withdrawn?

It's like a "cut and run" action - they needed to get as much out ASAP, and then disappear. It wouldn't necessarily create much suspicion if it was clearly Marion herself who was making the withdrawals.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Me too, I go from one likely scenario to the other.

I noticed that TSS was focussed on heaps at the start of the podcast and seemed to be the catalyst of all Marion’s worries. I wonder if the accusation Sally spoke of in one of the earlier episodes was enough to trigger Marion into wanting to change her name completely and disappear so that she/her family wouldn’t have to go through any potential investigation into that allegation
(Just to be abundantly clear I do not for one second that Marion was behaving inappropriately at TSS or anywhere else). It could also explain the obsession with returning the kitchen scales and other school items - I could imagine Marion
wanting to cut all ties and have everything returned so that the person who made that original accusation couldn’t cause further trouble for her (such as saying she stole the school items).

I've worked for one of these high profile independent schools and I can tell you they are not always nice places to work. Bullying and ego flexing is rife. Yet Marion seemed to have the means to do any job she set her mind to, including a sideways step into Steiner if she wanted to.

Luke Glover was identified as being of the Exclusive Brethren sect - they have a presence in Tunbridge Wells. And the person (his wife?) who said he would not be able to be employed at TSS if he was EB is incorrect. He would have.

 

[Loxoli]

I just have one last thing to add from my re-listen of episodes 1-4 today! The withdrawal of $80,000 from Ashmore happened on 15 October 1997 (according to these earlier episodes) not the 5th of October 1997. I find this super interesting because it’s A LOT closer to Owens birthday than I realised and also a lot closer to Sally calling the bank and attending the Byron Bay police station. We’re talking a matter of days, not weeks like I was first thinking!

Thank you for pointing this out. I agree, 10 days makes a huge difference in the timeframe. I’ve just done a quick Google and I found 2 MSM articles that say 5th October. I’ll add both dates into the timeline and hopefully we can get confirmation of this soon, whichever date is correct.

Missing mother Marion Barter was 'definitely' seen at bank months after she vanished, inquest told

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

 

[Mjjj14]

Thank you for pointing this out. I agree, 10 days makes a huge difference in the timeframe. I’ve just done a quick Google and I found 2 MSM articles that say 5th October. I’ll add both dates into the timeline and hopefully we can get confirmation of this soon, whichever date is correct.

Missing mother Marion Barter was 'definitely' seen at bank months after she vanished, inquest told

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

Damn that really throws a spanner into the works! I’m guessing that the date discussed at the inquest would be the more correct date (5 October) but I wonder why the podcast initially said 15 October. I would love to have this clarified somehow.

 

[Loxoli]

Timeline (revised)
Credit to @Peralta with other contributions in italics.

22 June 1997

• Marion tells family and friends she is going to England for possibly a year.
• Passenger card states she's permanently leaving for Luxembourg and her flight departs from Australia and arrives in England, which is crossed out and replaced with South Korea.

(Did she even know she was going to South Korea? If she bought her own ticket, she would know, surely!)

30 June 1997

• Sally receives letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, on stationery from Narita, Japan

July 1997

• Sally/relative receives postcards postmarked Brighton, Kent, Sussex Coast and London.
• Sally receives postcard postmarked 7 July from Hastings.
• Also sent letters/postcards to some of her students during this period.
• Sent early gift to sister for her 7 August birthday.

15 July 1997

• Original date Marion’s was going to travel on Orient Express.

1 August 1997 (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

Marion calls Sally from payphone. She says she’s in Tunbridge Wells having tea and scones with ladies she just met. Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation. However, it’s likely she was already in transit to Australia.

2 August 1997 (AEST)

Marion arrives in Australia on Florabella passport. Not sure if she entered through Sydney or Brisbane airport. There’s some mention of her possibly staying at the Novotel hotel in Brisbane.

August 1997

• Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England.

7 August 1997

Canceled RACQ membership and policy (roadside assistance and vehicle insurance).

13 August 1997

Medicare card is used at optometrist at Grafton Shoppingworld.

30 August 1997

Date (unknown if that is the postmark or written date) on the last known postcard from Marion in Tunbridge England to Deirdre in Australia.

August to September 1997

$5000 withdrawn every day for 3.5 weeks at Commonwealth Bank Byron Bay and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k.

5 October 1997 (date referred to in MSM articles) or 15 October 1997 (date referred to in podcast)

$80000 withdrawal from Ashmore branch. (Note: please let us know if you can find a confirmation on the date)

18 October 1997

Owen’s birthday. He did not hear from Marion.

22 October 1997

Sally visits Byron Bay bank and police, and reports Marion as missing.

 

[Loxoli]

Damn that really throws a spanner into the works! I’m guessing that the date discussed at the inquest would be the more correct date (5 October) but I wonder why the podcast initially said 15 October. I would love to have this clarified somehow.

It sure does! It’s a big discrepancy. I get a bit frustrated when I see errors like this from the media, because it makes me question the accuracy of everything else. I guess mistakes do happen though.

 

[Mjjj14]

Timeline
Credit to @Peralta with other contributions in italics.

22 June 1997

• Marion tells family and friends she is going to England for possibly a year.
• Passenger card states she's permanently leaving for Luxembourg and her flight departs from Australia and arrives in England, which is crossed out and replaced with South Korea.

(Did she even know she was going to South Korea? If she bought her own ticket, she would know, surely!)

30 June 1997

• Sally receives letter postmarked Tunbridge Wells, on stationery from Narita, Japan

July 1997

• Sally/relative receives postcards postmarked Brighton, Kent, Sussex Coast and London.
• Sally receives postcard postmarked 7 July from Hastings.
• Also sent letters/postcards to some of her students during this period.
• Sent early gift to sister for her 7 August birthday.

15 July 1997

• Original date Marion’s was going to travel on Orient Express.

1 August 1997 (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

Marion calls Sally from payphone. She says she’s in Tunbridge Wells having tea and scones with ladies she just met. Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation. However, it’s likely she was already in transit to Australia.

2 August 1997 (AEST)

Marion arrives in Australia on Florabella passport. Not sure if she entered through Sydney or Brisbane airport. There’s some mention of her possibly staying at the Novotel hotel in Brisbane.

August 1997

• Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England.

7 August 1997

Canceled RACQ membership and policy (roadside assistance and vehicle insurance).

13 August 1997

Medicare card is used at optometrist at Grafton Shoppingworld.

30 August 1997

Date (unknown if that is the postmark or written date) on the last known postcard from Marion in Tunbridge England to Deirdre in Australia.

August to September 1997

$5000 withdrawn every day for 3.5 weeks at Commonwealth Bank Byron Bay and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k.

5 October 1997 (date referred to in MSM articles) or 15 October 1997 (date referred to in podcast)

$80000 withdrawal from Ashmore branch. (Note: please let us know if you can find a confirmation on the date)

18 October 1997

Owen’s birthday. He did not hear from Marion.

22 October 1997

Sally visits Byron Bay bank and police, and reports Marion as missing.

I’ve just checked Channel 7’s official timeline

The Lady Vanishes: The timeline of Marion Barter's disappearance

And they say 15 October;

“1998
February: Marion’s Father Jack (John) Wilson asks the Salvation Army Missing Persons Bureau for help to find Marion.

March 18: The SA Missing Persons Bureau writes to Jack Wilson claiming they spoke to a Police Missing Person’s officer, who in turn spoke with a security officer at Colonial State bank, who claimed Marion withdrew the balance of her account at the Ashmore branch on October 15, 1990, and 'spoke of starting a new life'.”

I remember them saying that the 1990 was a typo and was meant to be 1997 but they never mentioned that 15 October was wrong.

Ahh this case and the 99909 inconsistencies and things that make no sense is just mind blowing!

 

[Mjjj14]

It sure does! It’s a big discrepancy. I get a bit frustrated when I see errors like this from the media, because it makes me question the accuracy of everything else. I guess mistakes do happen though.

I completely agree! And if they’ve discovered information that contradicts the original date/info, I wish they would say.

Since the banking records don’t exist anymore, we will never know!

 

[Loxoli]

I’ve just checked Channel 7’s official timeline

The Lady Vanishes: The timeline of Marion Barter's disappearance

And they say 15 October;

“1998
February: Marion’s Father Jack (John) Wilson asks the Salvation Army Missing Persons Bureau for help to find Marion.

March 18: The SA Missing Persons Bureau writes to Jack Wilson claiming they spoke to a Police Missing Person’s officer, who in turn spoke with a security officer at Colonial State bank, who claimed Marion withdrew the balance of her account at the Ashmore branch on October 15, 1990, and 'spoke of starting a new life'.”

I remember them saying that the 1990 was a typo and was meant to be 1997 but they never mentioned that 15 October was wrong.

Ahh this case and the 99909 inconsistencies and things that make no sense is just mind blowing!

Whoops I didn’t realise there was an official timeline. It’s strange how they didn’t include this as a seperate entry in the timeline on the 15th October, but only included it later when talking about information received. That makes me wonder if the $80000 withdrawal is confirmed as legit, or whether it’s something that Jack Wilson was told, but there isn’t a confirmation it happened. The MSM articles talk about it as if it’s a definite event and not just speculated, but what if it’s not?

 

[Mjjj14]

Whoops I didn’t realise there was an official timeline. It’s strange how they didn’t include this as a seperate entry in the timeline on the 15th October, but only included it later when talking about information received. That makes me wonder if the $80000 withdrawal is confirmed as legit, or whether it’s something that Jack Wilson was told, but there isn’t a confirmation it happened. The MSM articles talk about it as if it’s a definite event and not just speculated, but what if it’s not?

I’m now EVEN MORE confused because the Courier Mail reports from the inquest that the transaction was the 15th but ABC and the Daily Telegraph are saying the 5th. The 5th seems to be a date mentioned while the witnesses are giving evidence but the written letter itself says the 15th (according to the podcast noting the letter was read out loud and channel 7 timeline).

From what I can understand the only record of that transaction occurring was the letter from the family tracing unit. I suppose this means we have to draw the following conclusion;

- Sally wasn’t told about that transaction, she was told about the $5k transactions which means SOMEONE at a police station spoke to SOMEONE at the bank to get this information in order to pass the info to the salvos.

I suppose it had to have happened because the only money in unclaimed funds is the $14k.

link to Courier Mail article but behind paywall:
No Cookies | The Courier Mail

 

[vivienbee]

Timeline (revised)
1 August 1997 (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

Marion calls Sally from payphone. She says she’s in Tunbridge Wells having tea and scones with ladies she just met. Says she won't be calling or sending postcards for a while in order to enjoy vacation. However, it’s likely she was already in transit to Australia.

I remember from the podcast there being quite a frantic call, or something of that nature, left for Sally and Chris that mentioned something about Marion seeing news of an (earthquake?) and wanting to ensure that they were okay. Is this the same call? If someone could point me to the right episode where this is discussed let me know, I just don't have a mind for recalling specific episodes. :3

I'm hoping to relisten to all of the episodes and write out all possible relevant information, but I'm waiting until more of the inquest has come out so I can strike things off that are no longer important.

Also, in an article I found (whilst trying to locate info on the call I'm remembering), Sally is quoted as saying that Marion told her in her last call that she was the "best daughter", which may be nothing on its own, but may be something considered alongside her odd comments about "remembering" people in her final days in Aus.

The article also states that Marion, from the impression of the postcards etc., "had been "brave" and hired a car, and was on her way to Amsterdam."

Additionally, I know this has already been discussed but Tunbridge Wells does have Austen links if she wanted to explore that element. Jane's brother lived there with his wife, and he was buried there. It is also close to Tonbridge, where there is a Jane Austen walk and plenty of other sites to visit.

The article is here. I can't speak to its accuracy but it seems reasonably well-researched.
PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

 

[Loxoli]

I’m now EVEN MORE confused because the Courier Mail reports from the inquest that the transaction was the 15th but ABC and the Daily Telegraph are saying the 5th. The 5th seems to be a date mentioned while the witnesses are giving evidence but the written letter itself says the 15th (according to the podcast noting the letter was read out loud and channel 7 timeline).

From what I can understand the only record of that transaction occurring was the letter from the family tracing unit. I suppose this means we have to draw the following conclusion;

- Sally wasn’t told about that transaction, she was told about the $5k transactions which means SOMEONE at a police station spoke to SOMEONE at the bank to get this information in order to pass the info to the salvos.

I suppose it had to have happened because the only money in unclaimed funds is the $14k.

link to Courier Mail article but behind paywall:
No Cookies | The Courier Mail

I’m getting more confused the more I think about it. To add another confusing question into the mix:

Why did the bank employee who initially spoke to Sally and gave her the information about the Byron/Burleigh withdrawals not mention the more recent $80000 Ashmore withdrawal? Surely this is just as suspicious as the other withdrawals that were mentioned.

I’m really struggling to make sense of all this. I’m also really tired though, so there could be an explanation that I just can’t see right now!

 

[Mjjj14]

I’m getting more confused the more I think about it. To add another confusing question into the mix:

Why did the bank employee who initially spoke to Sally and gave her the information about the Byron/Burleigh withdrawals not mention the more recent $80000 Ashmore withdrawal? Surely this is just as suspicious as the other withdrawals that were mentioned.

I’m really struggling to make sense of all this. I’m also really tired though, so there could be an explanation that I just can’t see right now!

I can answer the last part of the question!

There were two seperate bank accounts with two different banks. One with CBA and one with Colonial.

Sally said she didn’t know about the colonial account and only had the cba details because Marion gave them to her to deposit the car sale proceeds. So the phone banking lady wouldn’t have known about the colonial accounts.

I think that’s correct anyway. Remember that super confusing episode about banks and bank layouts? Haha

I’ve just messaged the podcast page because imagine if the coroner takes the wrong date into account. Hopefully they can seek some clarification considering the fact that it’s one of her last known movements (if it was her).

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It was the July 30, 1997 Thredbo landslide.

1997 Thredbo landslide - Wikipedia

I remember from the podcast there being quite a frantic call, or something of that nature, left for Sally and Chris that mentioned something about Marion seeing news of an (earthquake?) and wanting to ensure that they were okay. Is this the same call? If someone could point me to the right episode where this is discussed let me know, I just don't have a mind for recalling specific episodes. :3

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

It’s a sad fact that romance scammers tend to like to prey on divorced or widowed woman in their 50s.

They target this group because they know they might be vulnerable, will have wealth and the children will have left the nest.

It’s just a case of separating the victim from their family & friends. What better way than get them to change their name and send them on a journey over 10000 miles away where nobody knows them.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

The latest postcard that has emerged was of Strand Gate at Winchelsea.

The interesting aspect to this is Winchelsea is only few minutes away from the old Barclays Bank at Rye in East Sussex where Marion’s bank transfer money was held.

Winchelsea is a very small town. Rye although larger is still a small town. Not the usual place to leave money unless you knew the area. And why not transfer it to Tunbridge Wells where you are staying?

 

[Meligator]

So the $80k was taken from Ashmore bank, and yet the “security officer” said look for her in Byron Bay. Why Byron Bay?

I just have to correct myself from my previous post. In episode 4. Taken, Jack Wilson’s notes given to the Salvation Army family tracing service are read out. According to these notes it was the Byron Bay police who said to start at Byron Bay. The full quote is;

“I asked what identification had been made, they said the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and had been told that she didn’t want her whereabouts known. They said that the bank security are like police and they were satisfied with their identification and that if I wanted to probe further, get a private detective and start at Byron Bay”.

I know that this is third or fourth hand information but it really is a bit strange considering that there was no security officer at Byron bay. Maybe there was a security officer who dealt with a whole region and not just one branch?

 

[FullMinder]

Wondering if any of you have come across a 1990s-era mail service that postmarked letters internationally? My thought, upon learning about the case below, is that Marion could have employed this service herself or someone exploited her and employed it posing as Marion. Other than this info I've shared here, I can't find more specific details on these types of businesses that existed in 1997.

In the 1980s and 1990s, John Edward Robinson lured many women from all over North America to Kansas for a variety of reasons using deception, where he then killed them shortly after obtaining access to their money and identities. In some cases, he actually forged a series of letters home to the victims' families in order to delay any concerns about their continued absences. He'd write letters (much like Marion's) that provided realistic details of cities across Europe and exciting travel updates. Postmarks on these letters were from: Amsterdam, England, France, Switzerland, Moscow, Australia, Canada, Mexico, California, Florida.

An illustration of how this actually worked from https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ks-supreme-court/1717900.html:

"This was not the first time Robinson had prepared or coordinated deceptive letter writing campaigns. In fall 1997, Robinson met Aleisia Cox through a personal ad she placed in a local magazine. Sometime in 1998, Robinson offered Cox a job traveling with him on business trips to London, Paris, and Australia. Before their scheduled departure, he directed Cox to write letters to her mother and daughter as though she had already arrived at each of these destinations, explaining there would not be time to write family during the trips. Cox complied, crafting letters to her mother and daughter that were written as though she were in Paris, London, and Australia."
​

So, about the service itself...John Douglas, the legendary FBI profiler (subject of the show Mindhunter) described this mail service in the book, Anyone You Want Me to Be: A True Story of Sex and Death on the Internet. Robinson used a mail service to conceal each letter's point of origin, and for a small fee, the service would postmark an overseas address on the envelope.

In an FBI Crime Classification Manual, Douglas further describes the scheme:
"Using an Internet service that would postmark envelopes from anywhere in the world, Robinson would send the victim's relatives a letter signed by the victim asking them to send money to a stated address. Robinson would then cash the checks the family sent. Concerned relatives of the missing simply assumed their loved ones were employed or travelling abroad."
Source: Crime Classification Manual

In a Kansas City Star report from June 2000, the mail service is described as:
"Some services will re-mail a letter to add an exotic postmark or disguise the point of origin. One firm advertises on the Internet, for instance, that it provides the service from Europe for $40 a letter. The last letter to supposedly arrive from Bonner [the victim] was dated in 1996."
Source: 13 Jun 2000, 8 - The Kansas City Star at Newspapers.com - Kansas City Star, June 13, 2000

 

[Mjjj14]

I confirmed with the podcast page that the correct date is the 15th. The 5th was said by someone and then picked up by other media. I know it was a small detail but given it was one of the last known things she did (if it was her), I thought it was important to clarify incase it changed anything!

Also day 8 today - Deirdre and Bronwyn are giving evidence. That should be interesting to hear about!

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

If correct then Marion spent almost 2 months in the Tunbridge Wells area, That is a lot of time to spend in a relatively small and insignificant part of the country in a Hotel ?

If she had found a more permeant lodging then she would have contacted Sally ?

I don't buy it was her sending the post cards, I cant see any "tourist" staying in that spot for that long, unless you had a friends or someone to stay with

hummmm

I agree with you, that Tunbridge Wells is an odd choice to head to and stay in for a while. I thought about this a lot yesterday.

One lead that I feel the podcast hasn't chased down enough is the mention that Luke Glover, the head of the primary (?) school at TSS was Exclusive Brethren (I will abbreviate to EB). I believe it is first mentioned by Marion's Teachers Aide. This is mentioned again in a later episode and was dismissed too readily by the makers of the podcast IMO.

I think it might have even been a senior teacher at the school at the time of Marion's disappearance who said Glover would not have been able to work at a school like TSS if he was EB. I call BS on this - it is something he could have very easily hidden during a job interview and in any case, the school council may not have seen it as a problem. He could have just cast it as him being evangelical Christian, which is what the EB casts itself as.

That teacher is incorrect. So where does that take us?

It was made clear that Marion was one of the only staff at the school who got on with Glover. It seems highly likely that if they found companionship that he would try to convert her.

There is an active EB community in Tunbridge Wells and I feel that this is an angle not explored in the podcast *at all* and while it is highly likely yet another dead end, it is one of the few leads not yet tackled and deserves to be IMO. This case will be given no publicity in the UK, so someone needs to seek out past and present members of the EB around Tunbridge Wells and ask after Marion.