Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[Loxoli]

I’ve somewhat moved away from the theory that the Fernand Remakel from the podcast was involved, but hearing that the inquest has been paused and one of the leads to be investigated is Fernand Remakel gives me mixed feelings. On one hand, I’m thinking what?! How have they not interviewed him already? (Like you @Itsapuzzle) But on the other hand I’m thinking that the coroner must think it’s worth investigating, so maybe that’s progress and something might come of it...

 

[Loxoli]

Sorry for my repeated posts, but I just want to add that I was expecting way more answers and clarifications with this inquest. I feel like we have been left with so much obscure information. There are so many facts that have not been verified or explained, and I feel like we have been left with a pile of mixed up information, some that may be true, some that may be false, and no way of verifying it. I really hope the coming investigation is thorough and the next part of the inquest provides us with clarifications.

 

[poppypopcorn]

That's what we were told, Loxoli. That the inquest would provide all the information that was in the police folders, which they weren't allowed to tell Sally. Even in the pre-Inquest conversations it was strongly hinted that there was lots of stuff in the brief of evidence that Sally wasn't allowed to discuss.

Turns out that there wasn't anything at all. In fact, I think the ONLY new thing is the fact that Marion cancelled her breakdown cover policy.

 

[Loxoli]

That's what we were told, Loxoli. That the inquest would provide all the information that was in the police folders, which they weren't allowed to tell Sally. Even in the pre-Inquest conversations it was strongly hinted that there was lots of stuff in the brief of evidence that Sally wasn't allowed to discuss.

Turns out that there wasn't anything at all. In fact, I think the ONLY new thing is the fact that Marion cancelled her breakdown cover policy.

Yep it’s bizarre. The lack of media coverage is still bothering me too. Is it possible there were things that they weren’t allowed to report on? Maybe that’s where all the missing information is? Gosh I hope so, but I don’t really know how it all works.

Also, I thought that inquests only happen when everything else has been exhausted and there is nothing to go on. This feels like such an incomplete investigation in regards to the new leads that the podcast brought up. Surely they could have waited until all the possible new leads were exhausted before commencing an inquest?

 

[JLZ]

I’ve somewhat moved away from the theory that the Fernand Remakel from the podcast was involved, but hearing that the inquest has been paused and one of the leads to be investigated is Fernand Remakel gives me mixed feelings. On one hand, I’m thinking what?! How have they not interviewed him already? (Like you @Itsapuzzle) But on the other hand I’m thinking that the coroner must think it’s worth investigating, so maybe that’s progress and something might come of it...

I'd like to ask him if he ever heard of another person stealing his name, or that of another soccer player, at any time in his past.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Well, I have to say, I feel like like I've crossed the border into insanity if I'm to understand this, that they need till February next year to push a few buttons on their computer to find out who put the ad in Le Courrier Australien, the phone number, address? H'mm ... perhaps one needs seven months to do such things? Well, I have to say, this is completely outrageous. If I was investigating this case, the very minute I came across this information I would have been onto it, I mean, it would have been irresistable .... but not so, it would seem, for the NSW Police? MOO of course

 

[sunnynz]

alisonsandy
@alisonsandy

Surprise outcome to the inquest into Marion Barter with Senior Counsel for the Coroner announcing it will reconvene for 5 days in February 2022 to give
@nswpolice
time to chase up other leads from our podcast and interview Fernand Remakel. Watch
@7NewsAustralia
at 6 for details.

2:53 PM · Jul 2, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

Mark Leveson replied and said it’s not a surprise and it’s only fair to Marion to source as much info as possible. He’s such a gem. I’m so glad him and Faye are supporting Sally.

Well I personally think this is great news. I was starting to feel like this inquest was just going to be rehashing everything we already knew and not adding anything of value. But this, to me, feels like a major move. For the coroner to say they want Remakel to be part of the investigation speaks volumes!

 

[brjakj]

Wasn’t there another remakel that worked in an office near the arts centre? What happened to him? I think he is a more likely lead than someone from an obscure French publication

 

[Loxoli]

Wasn’t there another remakel that worked in an office near the arts centre? What happened to him? I think he is a more likely lead than someone from an obscure French publication

I want to know more about this one too.

 

[Mjjj14]

I’m confused about why Sally’s husband didn’t think Marion would be capable of changing her name via deed poll when she had changed it via deed poll previously, but perhaps he didn’t know that.

I feel like the evidence given by Marion’s two friends was most telling of all. The fact that one of them said that she would willingly miss Sally’s wedding if something else came up was most interesting. The friends sounded candid and really had no reason not to be so it gave us some context as to what she was like as a person. Based on that wedding comment, she does seem like she could be the type of person to cut ties. Not saying she is a bad person AT ALL but her friends candid evidence did show her in a different light than we might’ve got the sense of previously imo.

 

[Mjjj14]

Listening to Sally's husbands comments today kind of backed up my thinking, and I don't mean this in a judgy way, but I am not so sure Sally entirely knew what she was dealing with when she went to police, some people (like myself) are not always as pushy or steadfast in their requests in fear of wasting others time when asking for help. I am not so sure she convinced the police her mother was missing or in danger, her husband said he though someone was removing money from her account, which seem to be a separate issue from Marion not been in contact. I am kind of not surprised that the case got filed as an occurrence and the money with the bank was followed up (was some taking money without permission) but not followed through as a missing person. 2 different process

Also when followed up, which must have been shortly after, her husband said Sally accepted what the police had said, that Marion didn't want contact, but he didn't feel she believed that in herself. The police can't be expected to know what your thinking .. if verbally you have accepted the statement

Then we have a long gap, they got back on the hunt and tried to track down the removal company only to be told the paperwork no longer existed, so this must have been a few years later

so there must have been a period of time that Sally accepted this and didn't continue to look because there was things she could have done in that time herself to try and locate her.

I don't know, I don't even like saying the above, but I feel like its a fact and the police get knocked for this and its not entirely their fault IMO.

I absolutely agree with all of this.

I also don’t know whether Gary Sheehan’s sick leave has anything to do with this case but I’ve thought of him a bit over the past few episodes of this podcast and I do think he did try his best considering the passage of time he was working against, his limited resources and the fact that he uncovered the name change etc was a big step forward.

 

[Mjjj14]

But according to the Salvo’s (1998) the police info about Marion camd from security at Ashmore Bank. How would the Salvo (or Ashmore Bank) know Sally had been looking for her mom at Byron Bay a year earlier? I have a suspicion that the police conversations were always with Byron Bay Bank. Sounds like the employees at Ashmore knew her well & if she had said she was disappearing to start a new life, I imagine the bank employees sharing that story with one another & someone would remember now. It would be memorable to hear that from someone you know relatively well. But at a bank where no one knows her (Byron Bay), it would be a more forgettable story. Just a thought

Does any document or letter explicitly state that the security officer spoken to was from the colonial at Ashmore?

The reason I ask is because a situation I’m thinking is likely is that because Byron Bay police had carriage of the case and because Sally had only told them about the CBA account, it’s likely that Byron Bay police made their enquiries with the local CBA branch.

I’m also going to guess that a security officer might be someone that covers a few different branches in an area and not just one branch. A security officer or someone had to have existed because the salvos wouldn’t just pull that info out of thin air.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I absolutely agree with all of this.

I also don’t know whether Gary Sheehan’s sick leave has anything to do with this case but I’ve thought of him a bit over the past few episodes of this podcast and I do think he did try his best considering the passage of time he was working against, his limited resources and the fact that he uncovered the name change etc was a big step forward.

I think about Gary Sheehan too, I reckon he did a marvelous job with the info he had and he went out of his way to discover a lot of things about this case ... more power to him, I think he's done a really good job investigating the case and seems like a great guy.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Also Marion's friend said she had mention deed poll as a way of changing your name. Her friend also didn't think it would be unusually for her to miss Sally's wedding if she had something she though was more important too her.

I am finding it hard to get a real understanding of Marion since a lot of people paint her as someone whom was quite self absorbed, and others don't

That's what we were told, Loxoli. That the inquest would provide all the information that was in the police folders, which they weren't allowed to tell Sally. Even in the pre-Inquest conversations it was strongly hinted that there was lots of stuff in the brief of evidence that Sally wasn't allowed to discuss.

Turns out that there wasn't anything at all. In fact, I think the ONLY new thing is the fact that Marion cancelled her breakdown cover policy.

It's hugely significant to me that Sally's husband Chris said that a removal company with a brown and gold logo van took Marion's property away to the storage facility. Unravelling what was the eventual outcome of the items in the storage facility could yield a significant clue. There was also the additional postcard.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Does any document or letter explicitly state that the security officer spoken to was from the colonial at Ashmore?

The reason I ask is because a situation I’m thinking is likely is that because Byron Bay police had carriage of the case and because Sally had only told them about the CBA account, it’s likely that Byron Bay police made their enquiries with the local CBA branch.

I’m also going to guess that a security officer might be someone that covers a few different branches in an area and not just one branch. A security officer or someone had to have existed because the salvos wouldn’t just pull that info out of thin air.

IIRC it was said on the podcast that there was no security officer employed at the time. The bank manager doesn't know who was spoken to going by that job title. My feeling is that the Salvos may well have pulled the information out of not thin air, but rather heard a comment and turned it into fact. They are people hired to help others, based on their relationship with the police and they wanted to keep cosy with the police. They would have relayed what the police wanted them to relay. Unfortunately Mr Wilson needed a hard-nosed private investigator at this point, not the Salvos.

 

[Estelle]

I’m confused about why Sally’s husband didn’t think Marion would be capable of changing her name via deed poll when she had changed it via deed poll previously, but perhaps he didn’t know that.

I feel like the evidence given by Marion’s two friends was most telling of all. The fact that one of them said that she would willingly miss Sally’s wedding if something else came up was most interesting. The friends sounded candid and really had no reason not to be so it gave us some context as to what she was like as a person. Based on that wedding comment, she does seem like she could be the type of person to cut ties. Not saying she is a bad person AT ALL but her friends candid evidence did show her in a different light than we might’ve got the sense of previously imo.

It seems to me that an understanding of Marion's personality would be helpful in this case. The idea that a mother would willingly miss her daughter's wedding in favour of something else and that her son would commit suicide does not suggest to me that she was a very caring mother, sister or friend. It is almost sounding as if she could have been narcissistic always putting her own needs first. Perhaps Sally has been in denial. It has always appeared to me also that perhaps her husbands came first then her career and then others. Marion also sounds as if she was the type of woman who felt as if she was nothing without a man - three marriages and wanting a fourth? I would also like to know more about the allegations against her at the school which could have damaged her ego and would explain why her need to escape took over. How serious were these allegations and were any of them true? Her secrecy around this time and urgent need to sell the house, change her name and sell her house suggests to me that there could have been some truth to them. If you were innocent, you would behave surely differently and sue the accusers. Whatever went on, shows possible guilt but also a possible resultant impulsive vulnerability to scammers. IMO asking a Psychologist to understand Marion's behaviour might help. What does the fact that Sally's husband suggested that he did not think Marion would have been capable of changing her name suggest? That she was a helpless dependent person so if her name was changed someone else could have helped her do it or even insisted on her doing it? (even though we have found out now that she had done it before?) Did Marion play the role of a helpless person at this time to her family but there was another side to Marion which Sally and her husband did not know about? I have found it amazing that people who knew her just accepted that she had gone away to start a new life. What prompted them to have that idea - apart from her name change? On the one hand, I can see Marion as being a dependent type of woman and, on the other hand, a very secretive self-absorbed possibly narcissistic woman. Her behaviour has never made sense to me so it is very difficult to predict.

 

[Mjjj14]

IIRC it was said on the podcast that there was no security officer employed at the time. The bank manager doesn't know who was spoken to going by that job title. My feeling is that the Salvos may well have pulled the information out of not thin air, but rather heard a comment and turned it into fact. They are people hired to help others, based on their relationship with the police and they wanted to keep cosy with the police. They would have relayed what the police wanted them to relay. Unfortunately Mr Wilson needed a hard-nosed private investigator at this point, not the Salvos.

I agree he needed a private investigator and not the salvos. I’m sure the salvos offer a great service at times but in this particular instance it’s not overly helpful.

In saying that, there’s a few things that have been said in the midst of the salvos ‘investigation’ that are so important, namely the comment “tell Sally I’m angry about the car”. The salvos cannot have just come up with this statement, it’s overly specific and is a huge focus point for me.

I know the bank manager of colonial at Ashmore said they didn’t have a security officer at that branch but imo it is possible that one security officer worked for the company and had a few different branches under their watch but didn’t physically work within the branch. Perhaps they had a different job title to security officer. I also think it’s likely Byron bay police at the time could’ve just contacted the CBA in Byron and not the place that David Martin worked at all.

Also, I’m most disappointed that no information about flight manifests have been presented. SURELY these have been retained. Wouldn’t having information as to who she was sitting next to on her flights be essential for the coroner to know? Maybe she has seen this information in the brief of evidence but why has it not been addressed at all.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

It's specifically a letter discussed at great length on podcast and inquest. The letter sent to Marion's dad from Salvos says that they spoke to 'Police missing persons' who claimed they spoke to 'Security at Colonial', who told them it was definitely Marion who withdrew $80,000 on 5 Oct 1990, and she spoke of 'starting a new life'. But during the inquest, Colonial said that they never had a securities officer.

Also, it was the inconsistency of the date provided in letter, 5 Oct 1990, that made Sally and her dad concerned that it wasn't properly investigated, and again, wonder if anyone had actually seen Marion.

This prompted Sally to request that Salvos investigate again, starting from scratch. They did, and eventually apologised and admitted that they never physically sighted Marion nor can they confirm if Marion truly made the statements in their original letter.

As we now know, the date of the Ashmore withdrawal was 15 Oct 1997. So Salvos and Police did pass on incorrect information.

I'd like to clarify another question I saw floating around no one was able to answer.

There is speculation that the Salvation Army said that police/bank/Marion said “you can stop looking for me in Byron Bay as I’m far, far away and you can tell Sally that I’m annoyed with her for not putting any money in my account after selling the car”.

Sally believes what happened was this: she and her grandad had several conversations about what to do with the sale of the car money as they didn’t want to put it in Marion’s account if it was only going to be drained by a thief. They also discussed what the Salvos letter said about Marion 'wanting to start a new life', and if so, would she be angry if the car sale money wasn't deposited? In the end they together decided to hold onto the money until they saw Marion again in person, because they believed they would

Sally thinks this conversation was a confused by her sick grandfather who was devastated about the situation and dying of cancer at the time. She believes he mixed it up thinking it had been Salvos who said it too, like the other things. When it was, in fact, his own painful worry.

The Salvation Army has since confirmed that they never give a family that much personal detail about a missing person. It's their policy to give basics only such as 'not found' or 'found safe and well'.

So basically, it never happened. Hope that makes sense.

Does any document or letter explicitly state that the security officer spoken to was from the colonial at Ashmore?

The reason I ask is because a situation I’m thinking is likely is that because Byron Bay police had carriage of the case and because Sally had only told them about the CBA account, it’s likely that Byron Bay police made their enquiries with the local CBA branch.

I’m also going to guess that a security officer might be someone that covers a few different branches in an area and not just one branch. A security officer or someone had to have existed because the salvos wouldn’t just pull that info out of thin air.

Mjjj14, you're kind of on the right track...

It is weird that Sally reported the 20 or so withdrawals at CBA to Byron Bay Police. Yet they instead passed on information about the one Colonial withdrawal to Salvos that Sally hadn't even known about, without seeming to have made any enquiries. Byron Bay Police also never again mentioned CBA, despite it being what triggered the search for Marion and her welfare.

It's NOT Salvos who pulled that info out of thin air - it was Byron Bay Police. In the inquest, it is clear no one can understand how Byron Bay Police got the Colonial Ashmore info or came to the conclusion Marion had been seen.

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

Sorry for my repeated posts, but I just want to add that I was expecting way more answers and clarifications with this inquest. I feel like we have been left with so much obscure information. There are so many facts that have not been verified or explained, and I feel like we have been left with a pile of mixed up information, some that may be true, some that may be false, and no way of verifying it. I really hope the coming investigation is thorough and the next part of the inquest provides us with clarifications.

like i already wrote earlier, there was so many missed opportunities to gather concrete evidence snd now i fear it may be too late due to all records from all angles being destroyed, unless a surprise comes out of the woodworks from a new witness or tip off

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

Also, I’m most disappointed that no information about flight manifests have been presented. SURELY these have been retained. Wouldn’t having information as to who she was sitting next to on her flights be essential for the coroner to know? Maybe she has seen this information in the brief of evidence but why has it not been addressed at all.

agree strongly!!i wrote somewhere in our million posts about passenger manifests and they could have interviewed other passengers and flight attendants etc and confirmed the identity and physical behaviour and who knows maybe conversations were had with fellow passengers that could have. yielded information. however i doubt these passenger manifests exist now most likely get destroyed after a few years depending on airline and home base procedures. after a random google it seems australia for example has legislation revolving around these records from the early 2000s and and some countries require court orders to release this info.