Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[Itsapuzzle]

People on TLV fb are really losing their minds over the Inquest being delayed until Feb in order for investigation to dig deeper. I understand the lack of investigation in the past was disgraceful, but things are very different now.

Just putting it out there that the Inquest is not a criminal trial. The Coroner's priority is to determine the circumstances surrounding Marion's disappearance, to make a finding on whether they think she is deceased or not, and to improve public safety and processes. That's it.

A lot of things discussed in the podcast were never going to be part of the Inquest, because it's not the purpose of a Coroner. They're not under any obligation to reveal every piece of evidence so that it can be publicly inspected. In fact, it's detrimental to the ongoing case.

Because separate to the Inquest, there's still an active investigation by the Unsolved Homicide Squad. Their priority is finding who did it and getting charges laid.

I did mention earlier, that if there's new evidence or person's of interest, the inquest is typically put on hold. If appropriate, criminal proceedings are initiated. The inquest extension/delay is brilliant news, actually. Otherwise, they would've just completed the inquest as is, with an inconclusive result, as many unsolved missing person cases do.

Also worth noting is that the Homicide Squad will keep many things to themselves so as not to compromise the integrity of the investigation. They certainly know more than they're telling the public and media, and they're likely following leads on many of the questions we've been asking.

Personally, I think the whole 'let's reconvene in Feb' thing is arbitrary. Much will happen before then. I'm feeling confident that things are heating up, moving closer to an answer, charges being laid, and to criminal proceedings starting. I'd bet on this scenario.

It just means we won't hear much until arrests are made, then criminal case begins. Frustrating but worth it

Ah, the voice of reason. Good on ya Peralta .... yes, I lost it a little too only because the update said they're going to start looking into the Le Courrier ad - (they've had this info since June 2019, 2 years) so that made me a little cranky - forgiveness everyone - it's just that I really worry about the effect this has had on these two people, FR and his wife, they've been dragged into this and I think it's upended their lives. It's cruel to leave it go this long without looking into it, they're elderly people. People all over the world are downloading this podcast, discovering it now, and hearing about FR. Ah well, sorry for getting cranky everyone, it's just the Remakel's over there in Luxembourg I've been worrying about. I will be patient and am glad that they are going to look into it, finally. Good job NSW police

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Reposting the police statement from a week ago, because it's significant and there's a lot to unpack. I'm calling this piece, THEY KNOW

Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter

• Suspicious disappearance.

They know someone else was involved. Full stop. It wasn't voluntary. They're looking for who did it.

• Marion’s behaviour leading up to June 1997 and following her departure from Australia has been described as out of character.

They believe Marion was influenced by this other person.

• The Homicide Squad’s Unsolved Homicide Unit subsequently established Strike Force Jurunga... to re-investigate Marion’s disappearance.

There's an entire strike force dedicated to solving Marion's case. They want everyone to know it. Including you and whoever did it.

• Even the Minister for Police and Emergency Services has been briefed on Marion's case and commented on it.

This case is being taken very seriously.

• The strike force hopes this appeal for information (reward), and the inquest will encourage people to speak up.

In other words, there is an order to the strike force's investigation. The inquest and reward are part of their plan. They have not been sitting on their hands doing nothing. There's strategy involved.

Side note, when there's strategy involved, it often means they're lining up their ducks until it's the right time to make decent charges against a POI. Rather than rushing in with less.

• Marion was observed by a family member leaving a service station on Ferry Road, Southport, in a red Honda Civic Breeze with a tall male passenger in the vehicle.

They know someone else was involved and this person is of significant interest.

• Her outgoing passenger card stated that she was divorced and intended to reside in Luxembourg. Marion may have re-entered Australia with an incoming passenger card stating she was married and resided in Luxembourg.

They know about Luxembourg. It's significant enough to announce it publicly. The possibility of a romance scam is real.

• Under the name Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel, which she had officially changed the month before leaving the country.
• Detectives explored numerous leads in Australia and overseas.

Oh, yes, they know about the Remakel connection in Luxembourg. They're onto it.

• Inquiries also revealed that following her disappearance, an unknown person appears to have accessed a bank account belonging to Marion.

Very interesting. They don't believe Marion withdrew her own money. They must have evidence. They know someone else was involved in her disappearance and it was motivated by money.

• We are particularly eager to hear from anyone who may have had any interaction with Marion Barter or Florabella Remakel from June 1997 onwards, particularly in late July or early August 1997.

They know someone was with Marion, particularly in the days she supposedly returned to Australia. Anyone who saw them together, please speak up.

• They only mention the UK once.

I find that very interesting. They don't say she disappeared there or in Australia. The UK seems inconsequential to resolving her disappearance.

The most important bits are:

• the man in the car in Australia
• that she changed her name to Remakel
• that she states she left Australia intending to reside in Luxembourg then returned from Luxembourg married
• that someone else withdrew her money
• who she was with between June and August - country not specified.

This is the version of the story police are interested in.

 

[Loxoli]

Ah, the voice of reason. Good on ya Peralta .... yes, I lost it a little too only because the update said they're going to start looking into the Le Courrier ad - (they've had this info since June 2019, 2 years) so that made me a little cranky - forgiveness everyone - it's just that I really worry about the effect this has had on these two people, FR and his wife, they've been dragged into this and I think it's upended their lives. It's cruel to leave it go this long without looking into it, they're elderly people. People all over the world are downloading this podcast, discovering it now, and hearing about FR. Ah well, sorry for getting cranky everyone, it's just the Remakel's over there in Luxembourg I've been worrying about. I will be patient and am glad that they are going to look into it, finally. Good job NSW police

I completely agree with these concerns. They have had 2 years to investigate Fernand Remakel and I believe this lead should have been fully exhausted before an inquest was called, however long it took. I also really feel for him and his family (if he is innocent), for what he is going through. He deserves to have his name cleared ASAP if he had nothing to do with this.

Oh and they had the tip about Remakel before the inquest, so they didn’t need the inquest to unearth this and it could have been thoroughly investigated beforehand. Hopefully there are more leads that were unearthed by the inquest though.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Inquest into Marion Barter's 1997 disappearance has hit a hurdle | 7NEWS

 

[Mjjj14]

“Inquiries also revealed that following her disappearance, an unknown person appears to have accessed a bank account belonging to Marion.”

My interpretation of this statement (coupled with the fact that banking records do not exist any longer and did not exist at the time G Sheehan took over) is that ‘an unknown person’ means they do not know who accessed the account (I.e it could have been Marion or it could have been another person). The person is unknown and Marion herself has not been ruled out as to not having accessed the account herself.

This is my interpretation of this statement. Of course there may be information I do not have access to but at this stage I do not think it is a blanket statement that “marion did not access the account”. JMO JMO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Who said the Remakel lead hasn't been investigated until now?

In fact, who said it was the Inquest that unearthed something new about Remakel that is forcing the Homicide Squad to only now start following leads from the podcast?

And WHY should all investigation regarding Remakel have been exhausted and completed before the inquest? What purpose would that serve? Is that even the purpose of the Coroner? Is it in the benefit of the Homicide Squad?

Police have zero obligations to clear anyone's name that is whispered about on social media and sleuthing sites. Their only goal is to find who did it and indict them. If anyone wants to 'clear their name', they can do it themselves and there are many avenues for it.

There is an aspect many haven't considered... maybe it's not the Inquest that has unearthed leads for the Homicide Squad... but more likely that the Inquest came to the conclusion they cannot make a finding yet as there's more to the case, and they need to step aside so the Homicide Squad can continue doing their thing. The Coroner can't go on or they'll jeopardise the homicide investigation.

I don't know how else to say it, but when an Inquest is extended and paused so the homicide investigation can continue, it is the best possible news, ever. Do you know how many missing person's and suspicious deaths never get this opportunity? Gah.

So by saying "we'll be back in Feb" is just giving time for everything else to unfold. They probably won't be back in Feb. In fact, I have my fingers crossed for it because an arrest and criminal case can take a couple of years to complete.

I guess in closing, I'll say that sometimes the podcast makes comments that lights a fire in the minds of their listeners. They want recognition for the leads they unearthed. They want to say they knew it first. It's good business for investigative journalists. Although, it may not be great for the investigation. And they have already backtracked their statement. Same as having to clarify Remakel's lamp was not Marion's, it just looked like it. Hahaha.

 

[Loxoli]

alisonsandy
@alisonsandy

Surprise outcome to the inquest into Marion Barter with Senior Counsel for the Coroner announcing it will reconvene for 5 days in February 2022 to give
@nswpolice
time to chase up other leads from our podcast and interview Fernand Remakel. Watch
@7NewsAustralia
at 6 for details.

2:53 PM · Jul 2, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

Mark Leveson replied and said it’s not a surprise and it’s only fair to Marion to source as much info as possible. He’s such a gem. I’m so glad him and Faye are supporting Sally.

Who said the Remakel lead hasn't been investigated until now?

RSBM.

I feel the need to answer your first question. Alison Sandy said the inquest is paused to chase up leads from the podcast and to interview Fernand Remakel. IMO, if he has not been interviewed yet, I am lead to believe that he has not been investigated thoroughly. IMO.

I’m not frustrated that this inquest is paused and I completely agree that it’s a very good thing. However, I’m very surprised and frustrated that Fernand Remakel has not been investigated thoroughly and has not yet been interviewed. Respectfully, I don’t feel the need to respond to the rest of your post because I feel that I am allowed to have a different opinion to others.

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

i also wondered about where marion bought her outgoing holiday ticket. in 1997 youd most likely do it at a travel agent or over the phone? no easy internet booking sites then. if she was in a few times at a travel agent discussing flight options etc she couldve struck up conversations with the travel agents about her intentions in the UK etc. i wonder if her plane ticket would shed any light on the place of purchase.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

They don't keep them for long, apparently. HMRC in the UK tells airlines to keep passenger records for 6 years for tax purposes. Saw something that US only says to keep them 3 months. In most of Europe, data protection rules you can't just keep personal info like names and passport numbers just because. 7 years is usually the upper limit. 20 odd years would be exceptional. If however someone had requested those specific passenger lists in late 90s or early 2000s, they may have been kept.

Depending on how the passenger cards are stored, police may be able to get the flight manifests off not the airlines, but the Australian Archives, if it is searchable by year/flight etc.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Ah, the voice of reason. Good on ya Peralta .... yes, I lost it a little too only because the update said they're going to start looking into the Le Courrier ad - (they've had this info since June 2019, 2 years) so that made me a little cranky - forgiveness everyone - it's just that I really worry about the effect this has had on these two people, FR and his wife, they've been dragged into this and I think it's upended their lives. It's cruel to leave it go this long without looking into it, they're elderly people. People all over the world are downloading this podcast, discovering it now, and hearing about FR. Ah well, sorry for getting cranky everyone, it's just the Remakel's over there in Luxembourg I've been worrying about. I will be patient and am glad that they are going to look into it, finally. Good job NSW police

We shouldn't forget here the impact of Covid on the police not chasing down the F Remakel clue.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Just for your information, there is a Florabella Pass in the Blue Mountains and a Florabella Street in Warrimoo also in the Blue Mountains- the public school is also located on this road. Didn't Marion used to live there?

Far more likely she got the name from living in that area, rather than a dinner plate.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Depending on how the passenger cards are stored, police may be able to get the flight manifests off not the airlines, but the Australian Archives, if it is searchable by year/flight etc.

Agree I am hoping they are stored by more than just name.

They (police) located the out going card when they thought they were looking for Marion Barter, when they didn't know about the name change, so I assume it can be done by at least passport number. Or maybe they found the name change when they tried to find her passport number ?

 

[Bibno]

Just for your information, there is a Florabella Pass in the Blue Mountains and a Florabella Street in Warrimoo also in the Blue Mountains- the public school is also located on this road. Didn't Marion used to live there?

Far more likely she got the name from living in that area, rather than a dinner plate.

I agree Marion would have known the name from those places, and she spelt the name as one word as for the places, rather than two words as for the china.

What puzzles me is the Luxembourg connection with the china.

I have no idea whether Marion even knew about the Villeroy & Bosch Flora Bella china, but it was known as Flora Bella Luxembourg china.

It just seems to be an odd coincidence to me, that the name Florabella has a connection with Luxembourg as does the name Remarkel.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Reposting the police statement from a week ago, because it's significant and there's a lot to unpack. I'm calling this piece, THEY KNOW

Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter

• Suspicious disappearance.

They know someone else was involved. Full stop. It wasn't voluntary. They're looking for who did it.

• Marion’s behaviour leading up to June 1997 and following her departure from Australia has been described as out of character.

They believe Marion was influenced by this other person.

• The Homicide Squad’s Unsolved Homicide Unit subsequently established Strike Force Jurunga... to re-investigate Marion’s disappearance.

There's an entire strike force dedicated to solving Marion's case. They want everyone to know it. Including you and whoever did it.

• Even the Minister for Police and Emergency Services has been briefed on Marion's case and commented on it.

This case is being taken very seriously.

• The strike force hopes this appeal for information (reward), and the inquest will encourage people to speak up.

In other words, there is an order to the strike force's investigation. The inquest and reward are part of their plan. They have not been sitting on their hands doing nothing. There's strategy involved.

Side note, when there's strategy involved, it often means they're lining up their ducks until it's the right time to make decent charges against a POI. Rather than rushing in with less.

• Marion was observed by a family member leaving a service station on Ferry Road, Southport, in a red Honda Civic Breeze with a tall male passenger in the vehicle.

They know someone else was involved and this person is of significant interest.

• Her outgoing passenger card stated that she was divorced and intended to reside in Luxembourg. Marion may have re-entered Australia with an incoming passenger card stating she was married and resided in Luxembourg.

They know about Luxembourg. It's significant enough to announce it publicly. The possibility of a romance scam is real.

• Under the name Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel, which she had officially changed the month before leaving the country.
• Detectives explored numerous leads in Australia and overseas.

Oh, yes, they know about the Remakel connection in Luxembourg. They're onto it.

• Inquiries also revealed that following her disappearance, an unknown person appears to have accessed a bank account belonging to Marion.

Very interesting. They don't believe Marion withdrew her own money. They must have evidence. They know someone else was involved in her disappearance and it was motivated by money.

• We are particularly eager to hear from anyone who may have had any interaction with Marion Barter or Florabella Remakel from June 1997 onwards, particularly in late July or early August 1997.

They know someone was with Marion, particularly in the days she supposedly returned to Australia. Anyone who saw them together, please speak up.

• They only mention the UK once.

I find that very interesting. They don't say she disappeared there or in Australia. The UK seems inconsequential to resolving her disappearance.

The most important bits are:

• the man in the car in Australia
• that she changed her name to Remakel
• that she states she left Australia intending to reside in Luxembourg then returned from Luxembourg married
• that someone else withdrew her money
• who she was with between June and August - country not specified.

This is the version of the story police are interested in.

Very good post. It’s entirely possible the UK doesn’t hold the vital clue to this case. The UK was probably used to get Marion out of Australia. I doubt you can fly into Luxembourg Airport directly and being such a small country would be easier to trace Marion.

I do have a feeling the main perpetrator in this case was never in the UK. Whether a co-conspirator did meet up or befriend Marion in the UK is a possibility.

I don’t quite share the same sympathy for Mr R. The ad is clearly referring to him. Did he or did he not post it? He has already lied on camera. He speaks better English than some English people I know! He is clearly multilingual. It should have been the police knocking on his door not 7News.

 

[Mjjj14]

Agree I am hoping they are stored by more than just name.

They (police) located the out going card when they thought they were looking for Marion Barter, when they didn't know about the name change, so I assume it can be done by at least passport number. Or maybe they found the name change when they tried to find her passport number ?

Someone a really long time ago on here said that when they (the authorities or department) search for a name in that system any aliases show up on the search as they’re also connected to the passport number and previous name. I’ve always wondered how Sally’s friend at customs searched for Marion’s name and didn’t end up seeing the fact that it was the Florabella passport that did the travelling from 23/6 - 2/8!

i also wondered about where marion bought her outgoing holiday ticket. in 1997 youd most likely do it at a travel agent or over the phone? no easy internet booking sites then. if she was in a few times at a travel agent discussing flight options etc she couldve struck up conversations with the travel agents about her intentions in the UK etc. i wonder if her plane ticket would shed any light on the place of purchase.

I’ve always wondered this too. What I would love to know more than anything is whether she had booked her return trip for 2 August at the time of booking her flights out of Australia or whether she had no return flight booked and then booked the 2 August flight on the spur of the moment. I don’t think there’s any possible way to know that though unless there’s some really pedantic travel agent out there who’s kept records for 20+ years.

If you google last seen May 1997 in Coombabah Queensland then the case I am referring about should show. Marion changed her name by deedpoll on 13 May 1997. This person went missing on 30th May 1997 on his way to visit friends in Southport in the early hours of the morning. It is probably another rabbit hole to go down and totally unrelated to this case but thought worth a mention.

I just looked him up, he was significantly younger than her at the time of his disappearance but it is strange timing and even more strange that he’s not been located either. That was clever of you to think to search for others missing at the same time!

 

[SaintGertrude]

In the Daily Mail article it says that Marion Barter, 51, was last seen at a depot on Scarborough Street, near Railway Street, at Southport, Queensland, on June 22, 1997. I thought she was seen after that when her friend Lesley Loveday dropped her off somewhere before the airport. Marion Barter $250,000 reward for information on Australian mother's disappearance | Daily Mail Online

 

[SaintGertrude]

Talking of TSS do we know if Luke Glover was in the RAF prior to working at TSS. Someone is looking for a Christopher Cook and Luke Glover on rafweb.org

It says that the Luke person she is looking for was from Bahrain. The Kingdom of Bahrain is a country in the Persian Gulf.

 

[vivienbee]

In the Daily Mail article it says that Marion Barter, 51, was last seen at a depot on Scarborough Street, near Railway Street, at Southport, Queensland, on June 22, 1997. I thought she was seen after that when her friend Lesley Loveday dropped her off somewhere before the airport. Marion Barter $250,000 reward for information on Australian mother's disappearance | Daily Mail Online

I think by depot it's referring to the bus stop/station where Lesley dropped her off, as that was in Southport, Queensland on June 22nd?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Lesley dropped Marion off at the bus depot in Scarborough street.

Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter - NSW Police Public Site

Marion Barter, aged 51, was last seen at a bus depot on Scarborough Street, near Railway Street, at Southport, Queensland, on Sunday 22 June 1997.

In the Daily Mail article it says that Marion Barter, 51, was last seen at a depot on Scarborough Street, near Railway Street, at Southport, Queensland, on June 22, 1997. I thought she was seen after that when her friend Lesley Loveday dropped her off somewhere before the airport. Marion Barter $250,000 reward for information on Australian mother's disappearance | Daily Mail Online

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Looking at how Marion travelled along the south coast from Brighton to Rye makes me wonder if she left the UK (assuming it wasn’t her that went back to Australia and she did in fact leave the UK) through the port of Newhaven?

It’s 50 mins from Tun Wells to Newhaven. 4 hours on the car ferry from Newhaven to Dieppe in France. 5 hours by car from Dieppe to Luxembourg. Easily completed in no more than half a day.