Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[SaintGertrude]

Given how many dentists keep popping up in this story, is it weird that Marion was going to a dentist in Brisbane? Seems a little far to go for dental care. Also weird coincidence that dentist was at the Brisbane practice from 1994-1997…such critical dates.

I agree there are a few dentists popping up in this story. Those who signed documents then the mystery dentist mentioned in a postcard from the UK. It did make me laugh when I read on another reply that maybe Marion went to a dentists convention. Anyway, the only Remakel dentist I can find is in St Louis, USA. He was still at dental training school in 2007 and far too young to have anything to do with Marion. I have not found out if he comes from a family of dentists but I would imagine another of those rabbit holes for us to now go down.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

If you check on the Australian Missing persons register on FB it says a bit more about this person and that he visitied Parkwood tavern on 10th May 1997 for a drink. I don't think anyone knows what happened on the night he disappeared.

Thanks SaintGertrude, how very interesting, the date of disappearance, Southport, and the Hunter Security detail. Thanks for sharing that info, and
welcome to websleuths
Thanks @tootsie, just headed over to the thread you started, good on ya.

 

[SaintGertrude]

Thanks SaintGertrude, how very interesting, the date of disappearance, Southport, and the Hunter Security detail. Thanks for sharing that info, and
welcome to websleuths
Thanks @tootsie, just headed over to the thread you started, good on ya.

Thank you for the welcome and I hope I am not taking up too much conversation as I have lots of questions about this case. The whole Clark Hunter thing is now really bugging me. So 7 years ago Marion's daughter gets a message from a Clark Hunter on social media saying he knows her mum is alive but she never see her again.. He went on to say that she was forced to disappear then very quickly deleted his message but not before Marion's daughter had taken a screen shot. From my understanding of the situation the police then track down the ISP address and any person(s) living at the address deny all knowledge of the conversation. Surely as this was sent a as a private message presumably by social media the ISP would have matched and unless it was not secured correctly it must have been someone from the household who sent the message. Does anyone recall where it was sent from at all?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

The Clark Hunter message sent to the Missing Person Marion Barter fb page run by Sally on 23 July 2013.

It wasn't the message that was deleted; the whole account was deactivated.

Yes, the police can ask fb for the data and IP address associated with the account.

Although possible, it's not always without challenges. There are heaps of accounts by the name 'Clark Hunter'. However, as we know the account was deactivated shortly after the message was sent (and probably created just before the message), this would be a distinguishing feature of the account.

Hopefully they didn't use a VPN to hide their IP address.

 

[Mjjj14]

I might be mixed up and would be totally happy to go back and listen to the relevant episodes of the podcast next week (still in lockdown ) but from memory, wasn’t the house the police went to the house connected with the ‘buried in Armidale’ tip? The people in that house denied any knowledge of the call.

Just as an aside - IP tracking can be a pain due to VPNs and such.

@SaintGertrude you definitely aren’t taking up too much conversation, great to have you here!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter, NSW Police Statement

This sentence is fascinating

"Inquiries also revealed that following her disappearance, an unknown person appears to have accessed a bank account belonging to Marion."

It does not say 'her money was withdrawn, then she disappeared', or 'her account was emptied around the time she is believed to have disappeared'.

There's no ambiguity suggesting she may have withdrawn her own money in order to disappear or permanently leave Australia.

It specifically says 'she disappeared, then someone used her account'.

I wonder what evidence they uncovered? Evidence that suggests she disappeared "particularly in late July or early August 1997", which is well before the Colonial Ashmore $80k withdrawal.

The statement also makes no reference to Marion being seen upon her possible return to Australia. They have not asked if anyone saw her in Grafton for example, or Byron Bay and Ashmore. Which is very interesting, indeed.

 

[Mjjj14]

There's no ambiguity suggesting she may have withdrawn her own money in order to disappear or permanently leave Australia.

RSBM

I very respectfully disagree with this statement. I’m unsure if you saw my post from yesterday or whether this comment is a direct response to my post (it does seem to me that it is in response to me) however I will quote it below just for clarity.

I do see ambiguity in this statement. There are MANY interpretations to what police say at times in certain statements or documents. I understand that you interpreted something that way but I do not think you can say ‘there is no ambiguity’.

“Inquiries also revealed that following her disappearance, an unknown person appears to have accessed a bank account belonging to Marion.”

My interpretation of this statement (coupled with the fact that banking records do not exist any longer and did not exist at the time G Sheehan took over) is that ‘an unknown person’ means they do not know who accessed the account (I.e it could have been Marion or it could have been another person). The person is unknown and Marion herself has not been ruled out as to not having accessed the account herself.

This is my interpretation of this statement. Of course there may be information I do not have access to but at this stage I do not think it is a blanket statement that “marion did not access the account”. JMO JMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

Thoughts lol.. there is a difference between putting your things into storage and a storage container, if you planned to ship the goods overseas you would use a container but you would also need a overseas address to send it. If you just wanted to store your stuff then you would use a storage facility.

Am I correcting in remembering that Sally had mentioned a container ? and if so they are normally delivered a few days before to load and then collected. If your storing things then they send a truck on the day

 

[Mjjj14]

Thoughts lol.. there is a difference between putting your things into storage and a storage container, if you planned to ship the goods overseas you would use a container but you would also need a overseas address to send it. If you just wanted to store your stuff then you would use a storage facility.

Am I correcting in remembering that Sally had mentioned a container ? and if so they are normally delivered a few days before to load and then collected. If your storing things then they send a truck on the day

You’re so right, Sally has said multiple times ‘shipping container’.

I’m a bit clueless when it comes to shipping containers and the procedures relating to them as I’ve never had one or needed really know much about them.

If Marion’s was rented, who paid the fees? If the fees stopped being paid and the shipping container, do they come and seize it?

If she bought it with view to keep it permanently, would it also be Kent storage that ships it overseas?

In either scenario, where are they usually kept? My understanding is that they’re totally different from the storage units you hire. Do you just keep them on your own/someone else’s property and tell Kent where to put them?

I noticed that Chris referred to the people as ‘removalists’ - do you think he just called them that because they show up and deliver the shipping containers and also have a facet of their business that’s also removing things?

I’ve moved interstate a few times (in more recent times though not 1997) and the removalists do show up with a truck that has a square back that could sort of look like a shipping container I suppose.

The shipping container is something I often forget about but it’s very interesting.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I used the way back machine for Kent Storage but could only go back to 2017, however it seems they did collect in containers on the back of the truck and then stored them this way. (see photo)

Storage!
With 70 years’ industry-leading secure storage and removals experience looking after over a million Australians, our storage solution is easier, more secure and up to 50% cheaper than self storage. Too easy!

We make storage easy with our simple, streamlined four-step process:

• We pick up anywhere: Our professionally trained expert removalists will pick up literally anywhere in Australia
• We pack carefully: We carefully inventory, condition report, wrap, pack and load your furniture into our specially-designed, reinforced steel storage containers
• We store securely: Once safely and securely packed, we’ll deliver your items to our state-of-the-art furniture storage facilities. While in storage, your belongings will be protected 24/7 by our CCTV security and fire monitoring, and free from dust, vermin and the elements
• We redeliver anywhere: If all that isn’t enough, when convenient we can redeliver individual pieces of furniture, or your entire container to any address, literally anywhere in the world. Could storage get any easier?!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Good find!

I used the way back machine for Kent Storage but could only go back to 2017, however it seems they did collect in containers on the back of the truck and then stored them this way. (see photo)

 

[Mel 1303]

You’re so right, Sally has said multiple times ‘shipping container’.

I’m a bit clueless when it comes to shipping containers and the procedures relating to them as I’ve never had one or needed really know much about them.

If Marion’s was rented, who paid the fees? If the fees stopped being paid and the shipping container, do they come and seize it?

If she bought it with view to keep it permanently, would it also be Kent storage that ships it overseas?

In either scenario, where are they usually kept? My understanding is that they’re totally different from the storage units you hire. Do you just keep them on your own/someone else’s property and tell Kent where to put them?

I noticed that Chris referred to the people as ‘removalists’ - do you think he just called them that because they show up and deliver the shipping containers and also have a facet of their business that’s also removing things?

I’ve moved interstate a few times (in more recent times though not 1997) and the removalists do show up with a truck that has a square back that could sort of look like a shipping container I suppose.

The shipping container is something I often forget about but it’s very interesting.

I find the shipping container really interesting. If Marion was planning on coming back to buy a unit, a storage unit would have been easier. A shipping container is either rented or purchased, and is easily transportable, although not always cheaply. Had Marion found work overseas, she could have had it transported to where ever she ended up. If she found work interstate (SA was mentioned), again, she could have it shipped to her. If it was in a storage facility locally, it would have been kept for a number of years after the fees were not being paid, with the contents then auctioned to recoup expenses for the company. A storage unit full of antiques and expensive artworks would surely be remembered by someone, either in the storage business, antique business or art business. The fact that no one remembers hints to me that it was sent somewhere- to be unpacked, or stored separately at the other end. This does not to me sound like an abandoned shipping container- it was sent somewhere. Given that Marion was packing the container would indicate to me that she knew exactly where it was going- but chose not to share this information with her family.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Inquest into Marion Barter’s disappearance extended

Sally Leydon has been waiting for 24 years to find out what happened to her mother but if it’s going to take a few more months to get answers, she’s prepared to wait.

On the final day of the inquest into the disappearance into Marion Barter, a five-day extension to take place in the new year was announced, to allow NSW Police to follow up leads that were yet to be pursued.

Those leads include finding out where the shipping container holding many of Marion’s valuable antiques and artworks ended up, as well as her strange connection to Luxembourg.

“Well, if they feel that they have more things to investigate, obviously that is something I want to happen. I don’t want an easy answer,” Sally told 7NEWS at the inquest’s conclusion.

 

[Mel 1303]

I used the way back machine for Kent Storage but could only go back to 2017, however it seems they did collect in containers on the back of the truck and then stored them this way. (see photo)

Storage!
With 70 years’ industry-leading secure storage and removals experience looking after over a million Australians, our storage solution is easier, more secure and up to 50% cheaper than self storage. Too easy!

We make storage easy with our simple, streamlined four-step process:

• We pick up anywhere: Our professionally trained expert removalists will pick up literally anywhere in Australia
• We pack carefully: We carefully inventory, condition report, wrap, pack and load your furniture into our specially-designed, reinforced steel storage containers
• We store securely: Once safely and securely packed, we’ll deliver your items to our state-of-the-art furniture storage facilities. While in storage, your belongings will be protected 24/7 by our CCTV security and fire monitoring, and free from dust, vermin and the elements
• We redeliver anywhere: If all that isn’t enough, when convenient we can redeliver individual pieces of furniture, or your entire container to any address, literally anywhere in the world. Could storage get any easier?!

We must have been typing at the same time! Great find. I do believe the container to be a very deliberate choice.

 

[Mjjj14]

Here’s the article that discusses the continuing inquest and talks about the postcard.

Inquest into Marion Barter’s disappearance extended

So there were two new postcards we had no knowledge of, but it was sent to Lee, not Deidre like we thought before. Also sent 7 August, so there was still at least one postcard sent after this date because we know about the 30 August postcard too.

I’ll attach a photo of the postcard (from the article for anyone who doesn’t feel like reading the whole thing). I must admit I’m struggling to read it, can anyone assist?

Edit: Sorry @TootsieFootsie I didn’t realise you had linked the same article upthread!

 

[poppypopcorn]

It says:

Dearest sister + family
Hope you are well
It's so special being back
in this beautiful country
after 30 years. This little
village of Rye is SO quaint
+ historic. Not far from Hastings
+ the battle of 1066.
Lots of interesting ruins
+ castles etc. Not so impressed with the beaches
+ cobble stones - no sand!
+ people are still sunbathing!
It's a gorgeous warm sunny day
today - great after a chilly rainy
few days. Food is great though
quite expensive. Antique shops +the most gorgeous hanging baskets you've ever seen
are unbelievable + I feel quite
(next line is the last and cut off image and hard to read but I think it says)
thankful at being + staying in an old town (or farm?). (rest?) with a nice family. Have seen squirrels + rabbits

really can't read the last bit which is written upside down at the top but she mentions blue spruce and silver birch trees.

Couple of thoughts :

Back in this country after 30 years - I thought Marion hadn't travelled to the UK before?

"with a nice family" - if this DOES say that she was staying on a farm with a nice family then this is new information. But she goes on to talk about rabbits and squirrels which makes me think I have misread this and she's talking about mice.

Postmark - definitely says Hastings, but can;t make out the date. Smaller places will have mail postmarked in the nearest large town so that does tally with what she says in the postcard.

Weather - could we check to see what the weather was like?

Beaches - she's right that most beaches are pebbly.

Comment about food - we know Marion isn't short of money, can other Aussies who visited the UK in the late 90s shed any light on whether they found eating out in pubs/cafes to be particularly pricey?

 

[poppypopcorn]

As an aside - the easiest way to read stuff like this is to screenshot or download the photo, and open it in photo editing software. then you can zoom, rotate etc.

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

I find the shipping container really interesting. If Marion was planning on coming back to buy a unit, a storage unit would have been easier.

Yes this is odd i agree as my father moved to Europe two years ago and a shipping container cost him about $15k. storage facility easier and cheaper option. why would u pay expensive costs if u were only planning to stay abroad a year?

 

[Mjjj14]

It says:

Dearest sister + family
Hope you are well
It's so special being back
in this beautiful country
after 30 years. This little
village of Rye is SO quaint
+ historic. Not far from Hastings
+ the battle of 1066.
Lots of interesting ruins
+ castles etc. Not so impressed with the beaches
+ cobble stones - no sand!
+ people are still sunbathing!
It's a gorgeous warm sunny day
today - great after a chilly rainy
few days. Food is great though
quite expensive. Antique shops +the most gorgeous hanging baskets you've ever seen
are unbelievable + I feel quite
(next line is the last and cut off image and hard to read but I think it says)
thankful at being + staying in an old town (or farm?). (rest?) with a nice family. Have seen squirrels + rabbits

really can't read the last bit which is written upside down at the top but she mentions blue spruce and silver birch trees.

Couple of thoughts :

Back in this country after 30 years - I thought Marion hadn't travelled to the UK before?

"with a nice family" - if this DOES say that she was staying on a farm with a nice family then this is new information. But she goes on to talk about rabbits and squirrels which makes me think I have misread this and she's talking about mice.

Postmark - definitely says Hastings, but can;t make out the date. Smaller places will have mail postmarked in the nearest large town so that does tally with what she says in the postcard.

Weather - could we check to see what the weather was like?

Beaches - she's right that most beaches are pebbly.

Comment about food - we know Marion isn't short of money, can other Aussies who visited the UK in the late 90s shed any light on whether they found eating out in pubs/cafes to be particularly pricey?

WOW hats off to you for deciphering that! When I really zoom in on those bottom/side bits I lean towards it saying “staying in an old farm (can’t read the next word) with a nice family” because that really looks like an n to me at the start of that word, not an m. But it wouldn’t surprise me if it was ’mice’ considering she then mentions squirrels.

 

[poppypopcorn]

My academic training is around reading really old 15th and 16th century documents written in Secretary Hand. Marion's scrawl from the 90s is super easy in comparison!

I do think she definitely wrote it, everything she's mentioning like antiques and hanging baskets tallies with what we've been told about her interests. And she signs herself as Marion. And that the details she gives are things that say she was definitely in Rye/Hastings/Winchelsea area to have noticed.