Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

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QUOTE="KiwiNZ, post: 16921397, member: 236815"]I don't know if she actually had a melanoma but my point was more that her sister believed she did and I would have thought that would have been quite concerning to a "normal" person and that she would have been mentioned to Sally at some point in the last 20 odd years[/QUOTE]

Yes, your meaning was clear and understood. Good point and no criticism intended! I wholeheartedly agree! Apologies that it came across as throwing disagreement on your comment. No shade intended.

My point was simply that melanosis could be described as a "freckle" of the eye, which Sally did know. When I heard Sally mention the eye "freckle"-- I assumed it was a melanosis based on my experience currently working as a clinical coordinator for an eye clinic. The melanoma diagnosis was surprising.

Melanoma and melanosis sound very similar, although the prognosis and treatment is vastly different. I wondered if there was clarification available for the more serious diagnosis. Is it possible that this information was misunderstood or misremembered?

Melanosis is reasonably common in fair skinned middle aged people. Follow ups would be yearly checks to observe for changes. An optometrist (not a medical doctor, a lower acuity level provider) would be appropriate for a yearly check on melanosis. If the "freckle" or lesion appeared with changes or a nodular appearance, typically an optometrist would refer a patient for follow up with an ophthalmologist (MD) and other medical doctors (MDs) to confirm melanoma and screen for systemic disease. It would be unusual, particularly in the 90's to have an optometrist (not an MD) treat melanoma of the eye. I question (but not rule out) if an optometrist in the 90's would be able to diagnose melanoma of the eye. Typically, an optometrist would not do a biopsy. The optometrist's diagnosis would be something along the lines of "nodular eye lesion suspicious for melanoma...further testing and referral recommended." That's how it works in the United States. Currently, it is is possible that an optometrist with special training would diagnose, an eye melanoma--but seriously doubtful if in the 90's this would be the case. I don't know the Australian protocol for melanosis versus melanoma in the 90's. We need an Australian eye professional.

Marion would be typically a decade young to present with melanoma of the eye. Certainly not impossible, but less likely. It also seems like the optometrist would have memory of a "younger than average" patient with melanoma of the eye, which would be serious. Melanosis of the eye would not be serious and hence not memorable at all. Patients with vision threatening or serious illness would have a higher likelihood of remembrance by medical personnel such as an optometrist since optometrists typically treat routine eye care. The non-routine patients stand out. With ophthalmologists or other eye specialists they might not remember melanoma since they treat a higher number of very serious problems. However, it's not surprising that the optometrist wouldn't necessarily remember anything at all (even an unusual occurrence) without notes. Just another piece of the puzzle to consider about this case.

As with all the facts in this case, time clouds the issues. As another member mentioned, that if it was melanoma, surely there would have been a higher usage of healthcare.

It's great hearing other's opinions, insights, and perspectives, and questions. Everyone brings a different skill set to the discussion. The variety of backgrounds and skills adds much more depth to the discussions.

Disclaimer: All MOO.
 
I think they come off as cold and just.simply.awful.

And regarding Marion's absence from Sally's wedding, sister BW said: "I didn't attend. I didn't expect her to. She wasn't around to attend it."
AC (counsel for the coroner): "Assume you know your sister is back in Australia, would she deliberately miss her daughter's wedding?"
BW: "Yes, if that's what she wanted to do. She wasn't going to be around. She was going to be away for a couple of years. I don't think it would be unusual at all."
AC: "Why not?"
BW: "Because she didn't want to go. Obviously."
AC: "Was there any estrangement with Sally?"
BW: "Not that I know of."

This exchange on BW's part is simply nonsensical. How is it obvious she didn't want to go to Sally's wedding? If you're of the belief that she's traveling still, in 1998, point taken. But today in 2021 to make that claim and stand by it? Nothing about it is obvious, especially given her next claim, that there was no estrangement between Marion and Sally.
I tried to bear in mind, when listening to the podcast, that the quotes are read by voice actors so we don't get to hear the exact way that they speak. Some of what they said I took to be fair enough, especially if we consider that at the time, if they truly believed that she had left of her own volition, cutting them out of her life without remorse, I imagine the resentment and upset that would create would be phenomenal. If they believed this had backing from a third party who spoke to Marion then it's easy to see how this might have taken root and festered, especially given the fact that she left them, definitely willingly (in terms of going overseas for a long period), to take on responsibility for helping to care for their father.

I think if you break down their comments individually they aren't that odd. I don't think Bronwyn was saying that Marion 'obviously' didn't want to go to Sally's wedding, she's saying that if she didn't go it would just be because she didn't want to, (ie, if she was travelling, had other things on), and she uses obviously as a clarifying statement.

I do think they seem detached, and some of their comments seem out of sync with other things we've heard about Marion, but family dynamics at the best of times are incredibly complicated. It's just really hard to know. They are also probably somewhat defensive because they feel guilt towards the situation. People react to those kinds of emotions differently, and I imagine that realising you may have unwittingly or not played a part in accidentally ensuring your sister, who may legitimately be missing, wasn't looked for, and you didn't twig that anything was amiss, you might have a lot of swirling emotions around that which may come across as quite ugly.

I have to say, after listening to this episode I felt somehow even more confused than ever. It just seems to get more and more convoluted and murky the more it goes on.

Edit: just want to make clear that I can completely see why their manner and actions are upsetting for Sally, and that they definitely said some things which are negative towards her which were uncalled for and crass. I just don't necessarily think that their demeanour means that they know more, or that they didn't love Marion.
 
She may have thought there would be no one looking for her (sadly she was almost correct). I think Marion’s plan was that if anyone did start looking for her, they would look in UK & so using her card in AU would go undetected. That changed when Sally learned she was in AU.

True but if she did not have time before she left Australia, one would have thought that it would have been something urgent that she could have seen a doctor about it in England. I also question why she would have gone to someone in Grafton months later.
 
QUOTE="KiwiNZ, post: 16921397, member: 236815"]I don't know if she actually had a melanoma but my point was more that her sister believed she did and I would have thought that would have been quite concerning to a "normal" person and that she would have been mentioned to Sally at some point in the last 20 odd years

Yes, your meaning was clear and understood. Good point and no criticism intended! I wholeheartedly agree! Apologies that it came across as throwing disagreement on your comment. No shade intended.

My point was simply that melanosis could be described as a "freckle" of the eye, which Sally did know. When I heard Sally mention the eye "freckle"-- I assumed it was a melanosis based on my experience currently working as a clinical coordinator for an eye clinic. The melanoma diagnosis was surprising.

Melanoma and melanosis sound very similar, although the prognosis and treatment is vastly different. I wondered if there was clarification available for the more serious diagnosis. Is it possible that this information was misunderstood or misremembered?

Melanosis is reasonably common in fair skinned middle aged people. Follow ups would be yearly checks to observe for changes. An optometrist (not a medical doctor, a lower acuity level provider) would be appropriate for a yearly check on melanosis. If the "freckle" or lesion appeared with changes or a nodular appearance, typically an optometrist would refer a patient for follow up with an ophthalmologist (MD) and other medical doctors (MDs) to confirm melanoma and screen for systemic disease. It would be unusual, particularly in the 90's to have an optometrist (not an MD) treat melanoma of the eye. I question (but not rule out) if an optometrist in the 90's would be able to diagnose melanoma of the eye. Typically, an optometrist would not do a biopsy. The optometrist's diagnosis would be something along the lines of "nodular eye lesion suspicious for melanoma...further testing and referral recommended." That's how it works in the United States. Currently, it is is possible that an optometrist with special training would diagnose, an eye melanoma--but seriously doubtful if in the 90's this would be the case. I don't know the Australian protocol for melanosis versus melanoma in the 90's. We need an Australian eye professional.

Marion would be typically a decade young to present with melanoma of the eye. Certainly not impossible, but less likely. It also seems like the optometrist would have memory of a "younger than average" patient with melanoma of the eye, which would be serious. Melanosis of the eye would not be serious and hence not memorable at all. Patients with vision threatening or serious illness would have a higher likelihood of remembrance by medical personnel such as an optometrist since optometrists typically treat routine eye care. The non-routine patients stand out. With ophthalmologists or other eye specialists they might not remember melanoma since they treat a higher number of very serious problems. However, it's not surprising that the optometrist wouldn't necessarily remember anything at all (even an unusual occurrence) without notes. Just another piece of the puzzle to consider about this case.

As with all the facts in this case, time clouds the issues. As another member mentioned, that if it was melanoma, surely there would have been a higher usage of healthcare.

It's great hearing other's opinions, insights, and perspectives, and questions. Everyone brings a different skill set to the discussion. The variety of backgrounds and skills adds much more depth to the discussions.

Disclaimer: All MOO.[/QUOTE]

I think I read that anyone with over a 100 moles would be vulnerable to melanoma of the eye. Also anyone with blue eyes. Out of interest what colour were Marion’s eyes?
 
Question re inquest procedures...now that Sally and her attorneys have the brief of evidence, how is it decided what information can be shared at the inquest and what cannot? Are there contents of the evidence that cannot be presented at the inquiry? Does the judge/coroner get to see the entire brief of evidence or are they only privy to what is presented in the inquest? The process itself is so interesting.
 
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I agree, brethren’s are a very closed community too - they don’t really go round recruiting people.
Here is the archive of some of Brethren magazines but only up until 2000 and I think there are different divisions of Brethren to make it more complicated.. 2000 issues – Messenger Magazine
 
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even stranger Marion's sister didn't seem to bother to tell Sally about it been a melanoma at any stage in the last 24years , Sally obviously didn't know.

They seem very cold people.
I wonder what evidence there is that this was really a melanoma and not something else?

If it was a confirmed diagnosis, I assume the treatment would be pretty invasive and require plenty of follow-up, and the last thing that a person would want to do is up-end their life. An overseas trip yes but not all the rest that Marion did. It does not make sense.
 
I wonder what evidence there is that this was really a melanoma and not something else?

If it was a confirmed diagnosis, I assume the treatment would be pretty invasive and require plenty of follow-up, and the last thing that a person would want to do is up-end their life. An overseas trip yes but not all the rest that Marion did. It does not make sense.

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest it was a melanoma but it's an odd thing to conclude yourself / or diagnosis yourself and then tell someone else it's a melanoma. But your right if that was the diagnosis given professionally then you would hardly want to up dead your life, you would think it would be best to sort first.

I wonder how long she had had it ?
 
I don't think there is any evidence to suggest it was a melanoma but it's an odd thing to conclude yourself / or diagnosis yourself and then tell someone else it's a melanoma. But your right if that was the diagnosis given professionally then you would hardly want to up dead your life, you would think it would be best to sort first.

I wonder how long she had had it ?

My impression from Part 5 was that family comments ended up being taken as gospel. This might have occurred because information was getting filtered through their mother - what we used to call Chinese whispers.

For example, it was probably just a flippant comment by Marion to her mother about the paying towards Sally's wedding (which might have just been precipitated by a surprise quote by the caterer or photographer or florist... let's face it, weddings are like that!) ended up being relayed to Deidre as Marion being angry at Sally which is then interpreted as Marion and Sally not being close/not getting along.

There was a LOT of that going on I believe and maybe the melanoma thing might have been the same. Everything was gettig exaggerated as they went along.
 
I think the information gained in Part 5 is not very relevant to the investigation. It doesn't add anything much, except for two things:

1) the melanoma, which may or may not be a melanoma, and may or may not be relevant.
2) the fact that Marion had secured a new job at the new Sunshine Coast Grammar school. Why go to the trouble of disappearing yourself when you already have your "clean slate" waiting for you in 1998?

This was the first I had heard of this new job.

Could Marion have called on Luke Glover as a referee and he ended up giving her a poor reference and her hopes of the job were dashed? Or did he use the negative report her Teachers Aide gave as blackmail, as leverage for something else, somehow? Luke Glover had a lot of power over Marion with that report sitting on his desk. He may have held the key to this new opportunity and poor Marion may have had that ripped from under her feet.

What all of this means for the fact that Marion *disappeared* I'm not sure, but it could point towards why Marion felt so "betrayed" and felt she needed to get right away from her life and perhaps she had help from an unknown person in achieving that.
 
Just re the melanoma .... so, if everyone's been looking for Marion using the freckle in the eye as a distinguishing feature, due to the melanoma it probably doesn't exist anymore? Would treatment have removed it .... also, if it was advanced, maybe an artificial eye? Just a thought. Marion did have other distinguishing features on her face though I believe, but just that feature in the eye may no longer exist. MOO
Edit to add: It was good to hear they found the baby hair sample of Marion for DNA testing, that was great news.
 
Honestly I am starting to feel really sad for Marion. Sounds like she was a kind person who worked hard at her job as a teacher. But she was not well liked by her mother, her divorces (which weren’t even initiated by her) were a source of chronic family discussion, her dad mocked her as Marrying Marion, she was struggling in a toxic work environment, and she (possibly) had eye melanoma. I’m picturing her now as a person who spent her life trying to gain others approval (dress beautifully, maintain a perfectly decorated home, create a beautiful and engaging classroom and treat friends to lovely tea parties etc.) yet despite all efforts she never gained her parents approval or found lasting love. I can see how someone might emotionally crack under such pressure and decide it better to leave it all behind. By all accounts she was in a rocky emotional state leading up to her trip (not the love struck mood of someone running off with a new love). I don’t know if she really intended to leave for good, but I’m leaning more and more towards her disappearance being her intention. Maybe she’s someplace living in a modest home with secondhand clothing/furniture and not giving a crap who she impresses.
 
Honestly I am starting to feel really sad for Marion. Sounds like she was a kind person who worked hard at her job as a teacher. But she was not well liked by her mother, her divorces (which weren’t even initiated by her) were a source of chronic family discussion, her dad mocked her as Marrying Marion, she was struggling in a toxic work environment, and she (possibly) had eye melanoma. I’m picturing her now as a person who spent her life trying to gain others approval (dress beautifully, maintain a perfectly decorated home, create a beautiful and engaging classroom and treat friends to lovely tea parties etc.) yet despite all efforts she never gained her parents approval or found lasting love. I can see how someone might emotionally crack under such pressure and decide it better to leave it all behind. By all accounts she was in a rocky emotional state leading up to her trip (not the love struck mood of someone running off with a new love). I don’t know if she really intended to leave for good, but I’m leaning more and more towards her disappearance being her intention. Maybe she’s someplace living in a modest home with secondhand clothing/furniture and not giving a crap who she impresses.
Withdrawing all the cash from the bank opened her up to being mugged or worse if she didn't reinvest the money. IMO she is no longer alive.
 

I have to say, after listening to this episode I felt somehow even more confused than ever. It just seems to get more and more convoluted and murky the more it goes on.

.
i agree i was hoping the inquest could give some answers, some extra evidence we didnt know about but atm it just gives even more questions and uncertainty about what did happen to marion. i found it interesting that the postcards confirmed that she was travelling alone (being brave driving) and that her family was actually very much in her thoughts throughout her travels, her enthusiasm and happiness showing in her writings to suddenly up end and disappear, seems so abrupt. it was clear she had plans to travel long term and the return to work in that new job in 1998, if it was indeed marion that reentered australia just weeks after leaving , well it just doesnt make sense! so frustrating and i cant imagine how sally has felt.
 
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i agree i was hoping the inquest could give some answers, some extra evidence we didnt know about but atm it just gives even more questions and uncertainty about what did happen to marion. i found it interesting that the postcards confirmed that she was travelling alone (being brave driving) and that her family was actually very much in her thoughts throughout her travels, her enthusiasm and happiness showing in her writings to suddenly up end and disappear, seems so abrupt. it was clear she had plans to travel long term and the return to work in that new job in 1998, if it was indeed marion that reentered australia just weeks after leaving , well it just doesnt make sense! so frustrating and i cant imagine how sally has felt.

I agree with you. Usually, one expects that once a case reaches the inquest stage, that all of the investigations have already been done and many questions have been answered. But in this case, it appears to me that the main purpose is to determine what the police now have to follow up.

However, I am not sure if we can be certain that Marion was travelling alone just by what she said in her postcards. Why do you think they confirmed that she was travelling alone? If she had met a man to travel with in the UK, I doubt that she would tell her family or friends due to her past unsuccessful relationships with men and her possible fear of rejection again.

I also agree that Marion's mood was one of happiness and enthusiasm in her postcards. Also her family was actually very much in her thoughts which was unexpected if she was wanting to disappear and never see them again. She even remembered to send a gift to her sister.

To think that she would return to Australia so soon just to withdraw money and not even see anyone does not make sense to me. Why the change in mood so suddenly? Why did she bother to write the postcards in the first place? She phoned Sally as she was worried about her and then nothing?

IMO something happened to Marion after her last phone call.
 
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