Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

No, Stanstead is north east of London and not that close to the area where she was. Stanstead is mostly used by the budget airlines like EasyJet and Ryanair. Ryanair wasn't operating in the UK in 1997 in any big way, EasyJet had begun operating and did have an Amsterdam route, but from Luton not Stanstead. Luton was mainly an airport for chartered holiday flights at that time.

Gatwick airport is the closest to where Marion was staying, or Heathrow. The other two airports aren't FAR (especially in Australian terms) but getting there involves either an awkward journey by train through the capital and changing stations, or driving round the M25 motorway.

For someone who enjoyed trains anyway, it seems to make more sense to drive to nearby Ashford, hop on a Eurostar service to Brussels, then another to Amsterdam. Probably wouldn't take much longer than driving when you factor in the drive to teh airport and the check in times, then transport to the city at the other end.

Another way would be to catch the car ferry from Harwich in Essex (North of London) to the Hook of Holland.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Another thing resulting from the latest postcards. We are pretty certain Marion was staying in Tunbridge Wells at the start of her visit to the UK but it would appear she also stayed elsewhere (in or around Rye). Was Marion actually back in Tunbridge Wells when she made that last call to Sally?

 

[Brissie Sleuth]

I think the red squirrels are a (excuse the pun) red herring.



Haven't listened to the last episode yet but if a school in Windermere is mentioned it's worth reiterating a couple of points - Marion could NOT work legally in the UK, even if she had married an EU citizen she'd have had to jump through all sorts of hoops to verify her qualifications and get a residence visa. No self-respecting school would have hired her. Illegal workers don't get employed in schools, they work in cash in hand restaurants, pubs.

yes and in the latest episode of the podcast they confirmed that an exhange to windemere was discussed but whether any plans were actually put into motion there was no record of.

 

[SaintGertrude]

yes and in the latest episode of the podcast they confirmed that an exhange to windemere was discussed but whether any plans were actually put into motion there was no record of.

I guess having handed in her notice the exchange didn't happen. Still puzzled by the squirrels but being from the UK we see them everywhere so can easily distinguish between red and grey ones. Marion would have needed at least a ling weekend free to visit the Lake District.

 

[vivienbee]

According to the Wildwood Trust red squirrels became extinct in Kent in the 1960s so there is pretty much no way that Marion would have seen them there. Either she is deliberately giving misinformation (ie. just writing random stuff to fill the postcards) or she went elsewhere to see them. Red squirrels were sighted in Kent in 2019 and it was the first time they were seen there in 50 years.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I think Marion makes at least 3 references of going to The Netherlands (Amsterdam in particular) but the one that intrigued me the most is her postcard of London Bridge written to Sal & Chris. It says ‘eagerly looking forward to seeing Van Gogh’s sunflowers and REVISIT Holland’. When did she last visit Holland? Also as far as I know the Orient Express doesn’t pass through Holland so this doesn’t appear to make sense if she intended doing both. And now she mentions a Dutch dentist in the newly found postcard. An awful lot of Dutch references.

I can't remember this postcard Lord Peter, would love to see it, sounds intriguing. Do you or any sleuths here have a copy to put up? Would be indebted. H'mm, do you think maybe Marion went to Holland and met the Dutch dentist there and maybe he came back to the UK with her, or met up with her again in Rye later, per chance ... and planned to return to Holland, "revisit"?

 

[vivienbee]

Another thing resulting from the latest postcards. We are pretty certain Marion was staying in Tunbridge Wells at the start of her visit to the UK but it would appear she also stayed elsewhere (in or around Rye). Was Marion actually back in Tunbridge Wells when she made that last call to Sally?

Her directions of travel seem almost triangular within a 1-2 hour radius, Tunbridge - Rye - Alfriston - Hastings (not in that order but they are all about an hour apart). If she did go anywhere to see these 'red squirrels', that would be at least 3 hours away, but I am kind of in the camp that they were possibly just grey squirrels, idk.

 

[Estelle]

It is very difficult for a woman alone to carry two suitcases on trains in Europe as there are several steps to climb up. I have done it alone with one medium-sized suitcase and I had to ask a man to carry it up for me and put it in the luggage racks. If she went by plane, she would have been charged extra for the second suitcase. I wonder why she needed two suitcases? They really weigh you down.

The most direct and cheapest way to Amsterdam would have been by coach from London to Amsterdam which takes 17.5 hours. They often only accept one suitcase.

My gut feeling is that Marion could have been corresponding with this Dutch Dentist (possibly told her his name was Remakel?) before she left Australia and they arranged to meet in the UK to hire a car to travel around and then he told her he would take her to Amsterdam. So she cancelled the Orient Express. OR she could have met him where she was staying. But due to the Luxembourg possible connection, he may have told her that he was born in The Netherlands but moved to Luxembourg where he had a dental practice. I have never had the feeling that Marion met this man in Australia. You can get a PO Box and have correspondence sent to another address for a fee.

So he possibly asked her if she would like to see Amsterdam on the way to Luxembourg to get married and she agreed. Having these two suitcases makes me wonder if he had a car and drove her there. Taking two suitcases abroad makes me think that Marion must have intended to stay for some time otherwise you would store one suitcase or not take two in the first place.

Mazz could have been this guy's partner in crime and was the woman who took on Marion's identity travelling to Australia to withdraw Marion's money. This woman could have been introduced to Marion as his sister and Marion felt safe with them as having another woman there, Marion would have felt safe.

This man could have made many promises to Marion that never took place because all he was after was her money. Because Marion trusted him she probably revealed a lot about herself that these criminals could take advantage of. Once they ended her life, they would have had access to everything they needed.

The mystery of where Marion made her last phone call to Sally from and her return trip to Australia needs to be looked into. It is not easy to make an overseas phone call from a country where the operator doesn't speak your language on the way back home between flights. Pity Sally did not ask Marion where she was calling from. But Marion would have been still alive then if phoning from the UK while the impersonator woman was on her way back here. So how would they have got the details of Marion's bank account details if she was still alive before the impersonator got on the plane?

So what happened as I doubt whether Marion ever got to Amsterdam?

 

[Estelle]

Her directions of travel seem almost triangular within a 1-2 hour radius, Tunbridge - Rye - Alfriston - Hastings (not in that order but they are all about an hour apart). If she did go anywhere to see these 'red squirrels', that would be at least 3 hours away, but I am kind of in the camp that they were possibly just grey squirrels, idk.

Did Marion spend any time in London?

You can do an organised tour of the Lakes District including Beatrix Potter cottage from London by train.

How many weeks did she spend in the Tunbridge - Rye - Alfriston - Hastings areas? If Marion only spent time in those areas for weeks it suggests to me that she must have had contacts there or was meeting someone there. There are many more places in the UK that she could have visited in that time.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Teachers can make the odd mistake??

 

[SaintGertrude]

It is very difficult for a woman alone to carry two suitcases on trains in Europe as there are several steps to climb up. I have done it alone with one medium-sized suitcase and I had to ask a man to carry it up for me and put it in the luggage racks. If she went by plane, she would have been charged extra for the second suitcase. I wonder why she needed two suitcases? They really weigh you down.

The most direct and cheapest way to Amsterdam would have been by coach from London to Amsterdam which takes 17.5 hours. They often only accept one suitcase.

My gut feeling is that Marion could have been corresponding with this Dutch Dentist (possibly told her his name was Remakel?) before she left Australia and they arranged to meet in the UK to hire a car to travel around and then he told her he would take her to Amsterdam. So she cancelled the Orient Express. OR she could have met him where she was staying. But due to the Luxembourg possible connection, he may have told her that he was born in The Netherlands but moved to Luxembourg where he had a dental practice. I have never had the feeling that Marion met this man in Australia. You can get a PO Box and have correspondence sent to another address for a fee.

So he possibly asked her if she would like to see Amsterdam on the way to Luxembourg to get married and she agreed. Having these two suitcases makes me wonder if he had a car and drove her there. Taking two suitcases abroad makes me think that Marion must have intended to stay for some time otherwise you would store one suitcase or not take two in the first place.

Mazz could have been this guy's partner in crime and was the woman who took on Marion's identity travelling to Australia to withdraw Marion's money. This woman could have been introduced to Marion as his sister and Marion felt safe with them as having another woman there, Marion would have felt safe.

This man could have made many promises to Marion that never took place because all he was after was her money. Because Marion trusted him she probably revealed a lot about herself that these criminals could take advantage of. Once they ended her life, they would have had access to everything they needed.

The mystery of where Marion made her last phone call to Sally from and her return trip to Australia needs to be looked into. It is not easy to make an overseas phone call from a country where the operator doesn't speak your language on the way back home between flights. Pity Sally did not ask Marion where she was calling from. But Marion would have been still alive then if phoning from the UK while the impersonator woman was on her way back here. So how would they have got the details of Marion's bank account details if she was still alive before the impersonator got on the plane?

So what happened as I doubt whether Marion ever got to Amsterdam?

So many scenarios with Mazz and the dentist especially as she didn't say if either were male or female. Mazz could have even been the European taxi driver from Brighton and may have moved to another local area like Hastings to work. If Marion handed in the hire car she may have chosen a taxi with all her luggage and got chatting to the cab driver.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Did Marion spend any time in London?

You can do an organised tour of the Lakes District including Beatrix Potter cottage from London by train.

How many weeks did she spend in the Tunbridge - Rye - Alfriston - Hastings areas? If Marion only spent time in those areas for weeks it suggests to me that she must have had contacts there or was meeting someone there. There are many more places in the UK that she could have visited in that time.

Yes she did Estelle. On the London Bridge postcard to Sally & Chris she states she “experienced the “tube” travel around London to see the sights and of course dropped into Harrods. David Jones move over!! What a shop! And so crowded and so many (sic) stuff”.

How many times she went to London I don’t know but it would be very surprising if it was only one day.

 

[Estelle]

Yes she did Estelle. On the London Bridge postcard to Sally & Chris she states she “experienced the “tube” travel around London to see the sights and of course dropped into Harrods. David Jones move over!! What a shop! And so crowded and so many (sic) stuff”.

How many times she went to London I don’t know but it would be very surprising if it was only one day.

I assumed that when Marion arrived at Heathrow, he would have caught a taxi into London (due to her two suitcases) and stayed at a hotel there, see the sights for a week, go on a few organised tours such as to the Lakes District, The Cotswolds etc. then hired a car and driven down to Rye.

If she ever did go to Amsterdam, I doubt she would have driven there herself as you have to drive on the other side of the road. I have but few women I know would do that.

 

[poppypopcorn]

On the exchange thing - my kids' school in Scotland did this. We had a teacher from Sydney come for the year, and the teacher from our school went to her school in Australia. It's usually a direct swap. But AFAIK these things are organised formally through the British Council or Australian education authorities. Given the red tape around working in the UK/Australia as a non-resident and for older people who don't qualify for a working holiday visa, it has to be organised through government channels.

Looking at the Windermere School website, it seems as if this may well have been the place that the teacher came to TSS from. Similar, private school set-up. If Marion was there, they'd have records. But personally, I don't think for one second she was anywhere NEAR Windermere at all.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I can't remember this postcard Lord Peter, would love to see it, sounds intriguing. Do you or any sleuths here have a copy to put up? Would be indebted. H'mm, do you think maybe Marion went to Holland and met the Dutch dentist there and maybe he came back to the UK with her, or met up with her again in Rye later, per chance ... and planned to return to Holland, "revisit"?

I can’t seem to find a copy of the original postcard but I will try and post the contents

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Dearest Sal & Chris. Hope you are both well and guess eagerly looking forward to your snowy trip (have a great time!). Did Chris get the new job in Brisbane and have been wondering how you got on with the police interview. Couldn’t remember the date. Am beginning to feel much more relaxed. Miss chatting with you. So many times I wanted to talk with you. Everyone over here is so friendly and helpful with directions and information. I really quite love just being a ‘tourist’, I’ve decided. Experienced the ‘tube’ travel around London to see the sights and of course drop into ‘Harrods’. David Jones move over!! What a shop! And so crowded and so many stuff!! Eagerly looking forward to seeing Van Gogh’s Sunflowers and revisit Holland. Lots of love. Mum. Was very impressed with this beautiful bridge!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Dearest Sal & Chris. Hope you are both well and guess eagerly looking forward to your snowy trip (have a great time!). Did Chris get the new job in Brisbane and have been wondering how you got on with the police interview. Couldn’t remember the date. Am beginning to feel much more relaxed. Miss chatting with you. So many times I wanted to talk with you. Everyone over here is so friendly and helpful with directions and information. I really quite love just being a ‘tourist’, I’ve decided. Experienced the ‘tube’ travel around London to see the sights and of course drop into ‘Harrods’. David Jones move over!! What a shop! And so crowded and so many stuff!! Eagerly looking forward to seeing Van Gogh’s Sunflowers and revisit Holland. Lots of love. Mum. Was very impressed with this beautiful bridge!

Completely fabulous, thanks for putting that up Lord Peter Flimsy, I had forgotten about this one .... the "David Jones move over" rings a bell now

 

[SaintGertrude]

When Lesley Loveday received the re-directed post surely some of this was this was addressed to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel? Did that not ring alarm bells for Loveday as the name change was unknown at that point in time. If not sent there then where was the Florabella post re-directed.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Another thing resulting from the latest postcards. We are pretty certain Marion was staying in Tunbridge Wells at the start of her visit to the UK but it would appear she also stayed elsewhere (in or around Rye). Was Marion actually back in Tunbridge Wells when she made that last call to Sally?

According to the volunteer in the UK who hooked up with the podcast and crunched the numbers on this, it was impossible for Marion to be in Tunbridge Wells when she made the last call to Sally on August 1, AND arrive back into the country on August 2. Given that she flew Cathay, it seems more likely she rang from Hong Kong, if we are to work on the assumption it was Marion herself who arrived into the country, which judging from the consistency of the passenger cards, she did.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

When Lesley Loveday received the re-directed post surely some of this was this was addressed to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel? Did that not ring alarm bells for Loveday as the name change was unknown at that point in time. If not sent there then where was the Florabella post re-directed.

Great question, and it is a pity Lesley was not asked this outright on the stand.

However, Lesley did not volunteer this information as to whether or not she had received Florabella mail, and I think she would have definitely noted that to the inquest if she had. Not a certainty of course but most people would have mentioned it I think.

Also, if Lesley did get any mail to Florabella, she would have simply returned the mail to sender, not knowing who "Florabella" was.

It seems that the Florabella name change was for the passport only and Marion did not use the name for any other purpose in Australia in those weeks she had approval for the name via deed poll.

(Dying to know what the cheques were all about. But maybe it isn't relevant since Sally hasn't mentioned it.)