Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

[SaintGertrude]

As the Le Courier advert says M.F.Remakel- why then aren't we looking for people whose names start with M? I know M could stand for Monsieur but is that assumption on the podcast producers part.

 

[SaintGertrude]

As the Le Courier advert says M.F.Remakel- why then aren't we looking for people whose names start with M? I know M could stand for Monsieur but is that assumption on the podcast producers part.

I wonder as well if the phone number 066 86 4788 can be found to match up with anything else of interest around the same time in case the person using the advert paid to use the same number for other small ads at the time.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Was just relistening to Bruce Cook's evidence again, which I have to say is pretty interesting. So I'm not sure if I've got this right, but it sounds like Marion actually resigned in April, hey, so she's given them plenty of time to find a replacement for her, and hasn't left in a frantic rush, or been sacked as some have speculated in the past; is that right? This letter, which I had thought was the resignation letter, appears to be just regarding her teacher's registration renewal. Is the registration letter from April anywhere, I don't recall seeing it, but this really takes "frantic/leaving in a rush" out of the equation in terms of resignation. MOO
Episode 25 - Part 6 Inquest - Bruce Cook gives evidence starting at 12.50 mins.

 

[JLZ]

When Lesley Loveday received the re-directed post surely some of this was this was addressed to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel? Did that not ring alarm bells for Loveday as the name change was unknown at that point in time. If not sent there then where was the Florabella post re-directed.

It depends whether Marion listed Florabella on the redirection request to Auspost. If not, any Florabella mail would have been delivered as addressed.

I don't understand why Lesley returned Marion's mail to sender. If Marion hadn't cared about her mail being collected, why redirect at all? This can't have been years later when Lesley had possibly given up on Marion coming back, because redirection isn't permanent.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It seems to me that Marion didn't want her mail returned to sender, otherwise why choose to have it sent to Lesley.
The longest redirect you can have on your mail is 12 months. You can't have a permanent redirect.

It's most likely that mail for Marion stopped coming because the 12 months was up and maybe Marion had nothing to do with why her mail stopped coming.

I don't understand why Lesley returned Marion's mail to sender. If Marion hadn't cared about her mail being collected, why redirect at all? This can't have been years later when Lesley had possibly given up on Marion coming back, because redirection isn't permanent.

 

[KiwiNZ]

It seems to me that Marion didn't want her mail returned to sender, otherwise why choose to have it sent to Lesley.
The longest redirect you can have on your mail is 12 months. You can't have a permanent redirect.

It's most likely that mail for Marion stopped coming because the 12 months was up and maybe Marion had nothing to do with why her mail stopped coming.

You would think this would have happened before they realized she was missing because Sally surely would have opened it and asked Lesley to keep everything so she could look for clue as to where Marion was.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I've had a redirect on my mail for years, renewed every 12 months.

I have a PO Box which I also renew every year. I stopped the box years ago and had mail stolen from my house letterbox so I went back to having the PO Box. Also I'm close to the street and there's really nowhere to hide parcels so I'd rather they end up at the Post Office rather than in some thief's hands.

And I quite often used to enter competitions and lots would only accept a street address. That's when I decided to get a what I call permanent redirect, but it's only permanent if you renew it every 12 months if you know what I mean. Not true permanent but ongoing for me because I renew it.

Oh Marion content. Just say that Marion did redirect it again, to a new address after Lesley's. Would the Post Office have kept those details ?

Oh and I tried to redirect my daughter's mail to my place at her request after she went overseas and I had to provide proof from her that it was what she wanted. So long ago now, but I think they needed her to call them and provide details. Then her mail started arriving.

 

[sunnybree]

Re receiving mail for Florabella I think it was found that the only piece of ID applied for in that name was the passport. There is no record of her attempting to change her details or apply for a new drivers license or Medicare card. It has often been discussed here that by not attending to her other ID this may have caused Marion some difficulties at Barclays Bank and maybe elsewhere.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

When you read Marion’s London Bridge postcard to Sally and Chris does it sound like someone about to sail off into the sunset wanting never to be seen again? To me it’s the complete opposite. I find it quite sad as in my view Marion was oblivious to what was coming next.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Was just thinking about the name change by deed poll - so we didn't hear anything about this from the inquest, did we? The deed poll document that was to be sealed for 100 years, was just wondering, the date of the name change was registered as May 15 1997. Could that be the date it was approved and certified, and Marion maybe applied for it earlier than that date? Just curious now, in light of BC's evidence re resignation letter.
Got this out of Trove re deed poll back in 1997 and it looks like there won't be much info to be gained from the sealed document .... we already knew the information that had to be provided and it was probably witnessed by someone obscure from Marion's life like a solicitor, JP or some such.
08 Oct 1997 - Changing your name by Deed Poll - Archived Website - Trove

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Great question, and it is a pity Lesley was not asked this outright on the stand.

However, Lesley did not volunteer this information as to whether or not she had received Florabella mail, and I think she would have definitely noted that to the inquest if she had. Not a certainty of course but most people would have mentioned it I think.

Also, if Lesley did get any mail to Florabella, she would have simply returned the mail to sender, not knowing who "Florabella" was.

It seems that the Florabella name change was for the passport only and Marion did not use the name for any other purpose in Australia in those weeks she had approval for the name via deed poll.

(Dying to know what the cheques were all about. But maybe it isn't relevant since Sally hasn't mentioned it.)

Me too PhilOlivettifan, so very, very curious about the cheques too!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

We only know for certain that there was one cheque. The other mail may or may not have contained cheques.
I think Lesley Loveday may have opened one after she returned the others. And maybe after that they stopped coming.

I think if it was me and I'd opened one and it was a cheque for a friend, I wouldn't have then sent the others back, just in case they also contained cheques which my friend may have been expecting.

Me too PhilOlivettifan, so very, very curious about the cheques too!

 

[KiwiNZ]

When you read Marion’s London Bridge postcard to Sally and Chris does it sound like someone about to sail off into the sunset wanting never to be seen again? To me it’s the complete opposite. I find it quite sad as in my view Marion was oblivious to what was coming next.

It is very strange, almost like she was on a covert mission and slipped from one role to the other. It's all so baffling.

Also doesn't fit with the "she didn't have a good / close relationship" with Sally, as her sister described.

 

[Estelle]

Has anyone done a timeline yet?

It would be very helpful. Please edit this with dates and add other things we can date

April Marion resigns
May Marion changes her name by deed poll and gets a new passport
Marion departs from Brisbane airport
Stopover in Seoul.
Arrives in London
Marion or her impersonator departs London?
Marion calls Sally
Marion or an impersonator arrives in Brisbane
Someone accesses Marion's bank account

 

[SLouTh]

Has anyone done a timeline yet?

It would be very helpful. Please edit this with dates and add other things we can date

April Marion resigns
May Marion changes her name by deed poll and gets a new passport
Marion departs from Brisbane airport
Stopover in Seoul.
Arrives in London
Marion or her impersonator departs London?
Marion calls Sally
Marion or an impersonator arrives in Brisbane
Someone accesses Marion's bank account

Could maybe add the dates and the areas the Postcards came from (areas of UK visited ) ...... and the time period from arrival to the last phone call???
Dates /Years of flights ??
Should Amsterdam be added with a ? .....after that Postcard was sent???

 

[TootsieFootsie]

There have been a few over the course of this thread.
Maybe we need to sticky them somehow ?

Has anyone done a timeline yet?

 

[SLouTh]

Has anyone done a timeline yet?

It would be very helpful. Please edit this with dates and add other things we can date

April Marion resigns
May Marion changes her name by deed poll and gets a new passport
Marion departs from Brisbane airport
Stopover in Seoul.
Arrives in London
Marion or her impersonator departs London?
Marion calls Sally
Marion or an impersonator arrives in Brisbane
Someone accesses Marion's bank account

Good Time Line here
by Mel 1303

Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I feel Johnny & Marion’s trip to the UK in 1968/69 should be added to the timeline. I don’t have the exact dates on me but will post them. I still believe this former visit to the UK plays some small part in this bizarre case.

 

[Estelle]

Marion Barter TIMELINE with credit to Mel 1303

(Printed here so we can add to or edit it. What's missing?)

October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 to Thursday 9 January 1969. Johnny & Marion’s trip to the UK (Marion visited Amsterdam for the first time on this trip)

Monday 25 November 1968 Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League (he never managed to play in their 1st team) so what were Marion & Johnny doing in the period before they left the UK?

What happened in this period with Johnny and Marion?

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.

June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

?Marion buys house

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

?Marion talks about a melanoma

?Marion had a theft from her car a while before her trip to the UK. Sally remarked the person on CCTV looked like Marion. Medicare card and wallet stolen.

?April 1997 Marion resigns from TSS

?Marion sells house

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

?Dentist signs paperwork for new passport

?Date of new passport

?Marion is sighted by Sally with a man in a car

?Marion stays with Lesley Loveday

?Lesley Loveday drives Marion to bus station

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport with two suitcases

June 1997 Arrives in Seoul, South Korea

? Marion arrives in London

? Marion hires a car

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

? Mention of Mazz and the Dutch dentist in postcard (date of postcard?)

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday gift to sister Deirdre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the Orient Express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she won't be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that...........

August 30, 1997 - postcard sent from Tunbridge England to Marion's family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads. (exact dates of these withdrawals?)

September 13 1997- Marion visits Optometrist in Grafton

October 18th 1997 - Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sally's first child born

March 6, 2002- Son, Owen, dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, dies.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

The Lady Vanishes

Inquest

 

[Estelle]

There have been a few over the course of this thread.
Maybe we need to sticky them somehow ?

Could we make a new thread for this or put it on the first page of this thread or the next one?