Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

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  • #201
I was just trying to think every scenario imaginable with Marion coming back to Australia. Could she have met someone who looked similar to her maybe and used their identity to leave Australia. Could someone else have come back to Australia to tie up loose ends for Marion using her identity then changing back to their own once all had been sorted.
I still find it rather odd when Marion had a theft from her car a while before her trip to the UK that Sally remarked the person on CCTV looked like Marion.
 
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  • #202
I was just trying to think every scenario imaginable with Marion coming back to Australia. Could she have met someone who looked similar to her maybe and used their identity to leave Australia. Could someone else have come back to Australia to tie up loose ends for Marion using her identity then changing back to their own once all had been sorted.

I just can't imagine anyone (let alone Marion) giving someone else permission to go back to Australia using Marion's passport to withdraw her money from her bank accounts and then leaving on their own passport. But I can imagine someone doing it if Marion is dead or confined.
 
  • #203
Marion Barter TIMELINE with credit to Mel 1303

(Printed here so we can add to or edit it. What's missing?)

October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1968/69 Johnny & Marion’s trip to the UK (Marion visited Amsterdam for the first time on this trip)

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.

June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

?Marion buys house

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

?Marion talks about a melanoma

?April 1997 Marion resigns from TSS

?Marion sells house

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

?Dentist signs paperwork for new passport

?Date of new passport

?Marion is sighted by Sally with a man in a car

?Marion stays with Loveday

?Loveday drives Marion to bus station

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport with two suitcases

June 1997 Arrives in Seoul, South Korea

? Marion arrives in London

? Marion hires a car

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

? Mention of Mazz and the Dutch dentist in postcard (date of postcard?)

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday gift to sister Deirdre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the Orient Express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she won't be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that...........

August 30, 1997 - postcard sent from Tunbridge England to Marion's family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads. (exact dates of these withdrawals?)

September 13 1997- Marion visits Optometrist in Grafton

October 18th 1997 - Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sally's first child born

March 6, 2002- Son, Owen, dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, dies.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

The Lady Vanishes

Inquest

Thanks Estelle for putting that together. Johnny & Marion arrived in the UK on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 and left just prior to Thursday 9 January 1969.

A couple of points here Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League on Monday 25 November 1968 (he never managed to play in their 1st team) so what were Marion & Johnny doing in the period before they left the UK?

Secondly Marion & Johnny returned to Australia in February 1969 so does anyone know what happened in this period too?

Sorry if this has been covered before. Also can someone please remind me how we know Marion had been to Amsterdam before?
 
  • #204
Thanks Estelle for putting that together. Johnny & Marion arrived in the UK on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 and left just prior to Thursday 9 January 1969.

A couple of points here Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League on Monday 25 November 1968 (he never managed to play in their 1st team) so what were Marion & Johnny doing in the period before they left the UK?

Secondly Marion & Johnny returned to Australia in February 1969 so does anyone know what happened in this period too?

Sorry if this has been covered before. Also can someone please remind me how we know Marion had been to Amsterdam before?

Because Marion stated in one of her postcards that she wanted to go to Amsterdam again to see the art, etc.

BTW I have added these to the timeline.
 
  • #205
I just can't imagine anyone (let alone Marion) giving someone else permission to go back to Australia using Marion's passport to withdraw her money from her bank accounts and then leaving on their own passport. But I can imagine someone doing it if Marion is dead or confined.
I think if she was coerced then anything is possible as people do odd things under control especially if she was scared in any way about something or someone.
 
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  • #206
I think if she was coerced then anything is possible as people do odd things under control especially if she was scared in any way about something or someone.

I wonder whether Sally noticed any difference in Marion's mood on that last phone call. If Marion was in trouble, it would have been about that time IMO.
 
  • #207
On the previous trip to the UK with Johnny, which I assume was connected with his football - he was playing with Stockport County which is a fairly minor team by UK/English standards and is located just to the south of Manchester.

For context, this is at present a 5 hour drive from Rye in East Sussex. In the late 60s it would have taken MUCH longer without a developed motorway network. If Johnny Warren was playing for Stockport they would have been in that area, not the far south-east of England.

Manchester isn't that far from the Lake District though, around 90 minutes by car and there are rail links too. I still think the Windermere thing is a red herring, that's where the Susie woman probably taught and Marion made a passing comment that it was the sort of place she'd like to teach, and it fitted the pattern of her previous positions in the early years section of private schools.

I suppose it's possible that the couple travelled by car from Stockport down to the port in Dover to cross the Channel into France as part of their trip to Amsterdam, and Marion decided it was such a nice part of the world she'd like to return to explore some day. But it's a bit of a stretch.
 
  • #208
Marion Barter TIMELINE with credit to Mel 1303

(Printed here so we can add to or edit it. What's missing?)

October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1968/69 Johnny & Marion’s trip to the UK (Marion visited Amsterdam for the first time on this trip)

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.

June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

?Marion buys house

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

?Marion talks about a melanoma

?April 1997 Marion resigns from TSS

?Marion sells house

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

?Dentist signs paperwork for new passport

?Date of new passport

?Marion is sighted by Sally with a man in a car

?Marion stays with Loveday

?Loveday drives Marion to bus station

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport with two suitcases

June 1997 Arrives in Seoul, South Korea

? Marion arrives in London

? Marion hires a car

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

? Mention of Mazz and the Dutch dentist in postcard (date of postcard?)

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday gift to sister Deirdre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the Orient Express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she won't be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that...........

August 30, 1997 - postcard sent from Tunbridge England to Marion's family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads. (exact dates of these withdrawals?)

September 13 1997- Marion visits Optometrist in Grafton

October 18th 1997 - Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sally's first child born

March 6, 2002- Son, Owen, dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, dies.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

The Lady Vanishes

Inquest

Thanks Estelle for putting that together. Johnny & Marion arrived in the UK on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 and left just prior to Thursday 9 January 1969.

A couple of points here Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League on Monday 25 November 1968 (he never managed to play in their 1st team) so what were Marion & Johnny doing in the period before they left the UK?

Secondly Marion & Johnny returned to Australia in February 1969 so does anyone know what happened in this period too?

Sorry if this has been covered before. Also can someone please remind me how we know Marion had been to Amsterdam before?
I was just trying to think every scenario imaginable with Marion coming back to Australia. Could she have met someone who looked similar to her maybe and used their identity to leave Australia. Could someone else have come back to Australia to tie up loose ends for Marion using her identity then changing back to their own once all had been sorted.
I still find it rather odd when Marion had a theft from her car a while before her trip to the UK that Sally remarked the person on CCTV looked like Marion.
Because Marion stated in one of her postcards that she wanted to go to Amsterdam again to see the art, etc.

BTW I have added these to the timeline.

Oops I should have remembered that as I only posted the contents of the postcard the other day! I think what I’m querying is do we know exactly when Marion (& Johnny?) were in Holland? Was Holland the only European country other than England that they visited in 68/9?
 
  • #209
On the previous trip to the UK with Johnny, which I assume was connected with his football - he was playing with Stockport County which is a fairly minor team by UK/English standards and is located just to the south of Manchester.

For context, this is at present a 5 hour drive from Rye in East Sussex. In the late 60s it would have taken MUCH longer without a developed motorway network. If Johnny Warren was playing for Stockport they would have been in that area, not the far south-east of England.

Manchester isn't that far from the Lake District though, around 90 minutes by car and there are rail links too. I still think the Windermere thing is a red herring, that's where the Susie woman probably taught and Marion made a passing comment that it was the sort of place she'd like to teach, and it fitted the pattern of her previous positions in the early years section of private schools.

I suppose it's possible that the couple travelled by car from Stockport down to the port in Dover to cross the Channel into France as part of their trip to Amsterdam, and Marion decided it was such a nice part of the world she'd like to return to explore some day. But it's a bit of a stretch.

Sounds plausible. As I mentioned a little while back a Scotsman George Yardley was the player who recommended Johnny to Stockport for the 68/9 season as they both played for St George Budapest in Australia. George became a top striker for Tranmere Rovers. There is a South East connection. George’s sister lives/lived in Tonbridge. George suffered a serious injury before the 68/9 season (lost a kidney in a tackle) and may have stayed with his sister. I think Marion & Johnny would have been good friends with George who was well liked by all those who came across him. I have never been able to find his sisters married name.
 
  • #210
From a poster on the facebook page if this helps anyone
 

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  • #211
Random .... just did a word search for "Trendwest" on TLV page and it brought up a comment that the Remakel connection at Trendwest was looked into by NSW police and no record was found. (Indebted to TLV for this info) So, it looks like the Trendwest connection is out the door and we're left with the Monsieur Remakel with some connection to Lennox Head.
 
  • #212
Thanks Estelle for putting that together. Johnny & Marion arrived in the UK on Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 and left just prior to Thursday 9 January 1969.

A couple of points here Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League on Monday 25 November 1968 (he never managed to play in their 1st team) so what were Marion & Johnny doing in the period before they left the UK?

Secondly Marion & Johnny returned to Australia in February 1969 so does anyone know what happened in this period too?

Sorry if this has been covered before. Also can someone please remind me how we know Marion had been to Amsterdam before?



Oops I should have remembered that as I only posted the contents of the postcard the other day! I think what I’m querying is do we know exactly when Marion (& Johnny?) were in Holland? Was Holland the only European country other than England that they visited in 68/9?
Just re another Holland connection, Marion's husband Ray Barter (married 1985 - divorced 1990) had this to say in Episode 2 - Marion at 33.19 minutes in:
Episode 2 - Marion:
"She really liked the idea of alternative living, and she always - always said that she would like to sell everything up and move and live basically in a commune. And the other thing she would have liked to have done was, lived in Holland, because she loved the idea of living in Holland, she loved Holland."
 
  • #213
  • #214
Maybe Marion had an identity disorder. That could explain a lot.

Maybe Marion "stole" her own purse or wallet.

Split personality disorder: Signs, symptoms, causes, and more

I find this idea very interesting. From the article you quoted:

A split personality is a popular term for DID. In the past, DID was known as multiple personality disorder.

People with DID have two or more distinct personalities. They do not present as simple changes in traits or moods. A person with DID expresses significant differences between these alternate identities, which can also be referred to as alters.

Often, these personalities are completely different from each other. These fragmented personalities take control of the person’s identity for some time.

A person also maintains their primary or host identity, which is their original personality, and will answer to their given name. Their primary identity is generally more passiveTrusted Source, and they may be unaware of the other personalities.

When a personality change happens, the new personality will have a distinct history, a new identity, and different behaviors.

These split personalities, or alters, often have their own distinct:
  • name
  • age
  • gender
  • moods
  • memories
  • vocabulary
 
  • #215
I've had the idea of this for awhile but hesitated to post it.

I find this idea very interesting. From the article you quoted:

A split personality is a popular term for DID. In the past, DID was known as multiple personality disorder.
 
  • #216
I've had the idea of this for awhile but hesitated to post it.

So have I actually as Marion has not always been very consistent. The name change is a red flag for me.
 
  • #217
Maybe Marion had an identity disorder. That could explain a lot.

Maybe Marion "stole" her own purse or wallet.

Split personality disorder: Signs, symptoms, causes, and more
Interesting theory Tootsie .... however, re the stolen purse, it was confirmed by Sally, I believe, that she saw a photo of the woman caught on CCTV who used Marion's card and it appeared to be someone who looked a lot like Marion, only much younger .... another strange twist, yes, the thief looking so much like Marion, it is very strange.
 
  • #218
I was thinking that back then the majority of CCTV was horrible quality, blurry, out of focus etc.

Plus some people do look younger recorded on digital than they do on more old fashioned film.
Plus it was said that the woman looked "uncannily like Marion"

I would love to see an image of the woman, but I suppose it doesn't exist now.

Interesting theory Tootsie .... however, re the stolen purse, it was confirmed by Sally, I believe, that she saw a photo of the woman caught on CCTV who used Marion's card and it appeared to be someone who looked a lot like Marion, only much younger .... another strange twist, yes, the thief looking so much like Marion, it is very strange.
 
  • #219
  • #220
Even without the woman being Marion, I still think it's a possibility that she may have developed a personality disorder.

Just changing her name without any good reason to (that we know about) could suggest that Marion had two identities.
 
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