Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #5

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  • #301
The 2 walking into the shop definitely look like tourists. I pondered whether that was a large brown belt around her midriff but you are probably right. It’s such a long shot. You’d expect to see Lord Lucan before Marion! The fact the Dutch tourists obviously liked their photography you just never know if they have other photos of The Pantiles that day. I think they visited the Day at the Wells museum and we know Marion also had a leaflet for that which was sent back to Oz. Can’t remember to whom.
Ah yes. But wait, I’ve lightened the picture, and yes, it appears to be some kind of belt, with something weird hanging off it at the back. Seems to be wearing boots now .... I thought they were heels before ..... oh boy, I better stop looking before I see something different again, and Lord Lucan to boot! I will move on ...
41C04FCA-6E51-4B49-9C4E-C6053A96C794.jpeg
 
  • #302
I just found this article which I fear might have happened to Marion. But this woman told her family who tried to talk her out of it but she still went. She had been writing to him for four years!

Woman believed victim of online scam found dead

Woman believed victim of online scam found dead

"This is a tragic series of consequences of meeting a person online, who isn't the person you believe they are, and it's a very common occurrence, alarmingly common occurrence," he said. "We're finding that these people in their mid life to older days are falling victims to these overseas criminals who are grooming them over a period of time and then stealing their funds from them."

"My warning is that unless you have met the person face-to-face you do not know what you are dealing with when you are talking to somebody online. "It is absolutely fraught with danger and we would say don't send money to anybody that you have met on the computer. "We also strongly urge people not to travel overseas to meet someone they have met on the computer. "They are organised criminals and the evidence that we've gathered to date strongly indicates that the perpetrators are extremely well-organised con men and fraudsters, and we are finding that there's a network around the world and these people are operating in cooperation with each other."

Mr Jacobs is also warning others to take heed from what happened to his mother. "Don't believe you have got someone real on the other end," he said.
"They are professionals, they are really good at what they do.




 
  • #303
Ah yes. But wait, I’ve lightened the picture, and yes, it appears to be some kind of belt, with something weird hanging off it at the back. Seems to be wearing boots now .... I thought they were heels before ..... oh boy, I better stop looking before I see something different again, and Lord Lucan to boot! I will move on ...
View attachment 305003

Did Marion like wearing summer scarves? She would strike me as though she would.
 
  • #304
Because I discovered the Jungblut marriage a stones throw from Heathrow in Surrey I did wonder why not a single postcard from that beautiful Home Counties location and yet there are from London, Kent, East Sussex & West Sussex?
Interesting observation about the Jungblut marriage Lord Flimsy. I think though unless we can find death certificates (before the wedding) for the people who married it was a genuine marriage and genuine people rather than possibly Marion and her new man.
 
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  • #305
I just found this article which I fear might have happened to Marion. But this woman told her family who tried to talk her out of it but she still went. She had been writing to him for four years!

Woman believed victim of online scam found dead

Woman believed victim of online scam found dead

"This is a tragic series of consequences of meeting a person online, who isn't the person you believe they are, and it's a very common occurrence, alarmingly common occurrence," he said. "We're finding that these people in their mid life to older days are falling victims to these overseas criminals who are grooming them over a period of time and then stealing their funds from them."

"My warning is that unless you have met the person face-to-face you do not know what you are dealing with when you are talking to somebody online. "It is absolutely fraught with danger and we would say don't send money to anybody that you have met on the computer. "We also strongly urge people not to travel overseas to meet someone they have met on the computer. "They are organised criminals and the evidence that we've gathered to date strongly indicates that the perpetrators are extremely well-organised con men and fraudsters, and we are finding that there's a network around the world and these people are operating in cooperation with each other."

Mr Jacobs is also warning others to take heed from what happened to his mother. "Don't believe you have got someone real on the other end," he said.
"They are professionals, they are really good at what they do

It’s very sad but so common. As I’ve said before I believe Marion was the victim of an elaborate Romance scam possibly involving more than one person.

This was before the days of Internet dating but even if the perpetrator never step foot inside Australia there could always be written and phone contact (this is why I would have looked at her phone records for International calls).

She was vulnerable and as Sally has said gullible. An intellectual charmer could easily manipulate her into travelling 10000 miles away from her life & family in Australia.

Stealing the money and possessions was probably the more difficult part.
 
  • #306
I have just been thinking also that people can live in Luxembourg and commute. I was reading an article about certain professions like Psychology back then and the training was done mostly in other countries like Germany rather than Luxembourg as the resources were better. If Marion did meet a man from Luxembourg via Le Courier maybe he was a professinal and commuted, spending half his time in another country as well. This is part of an article form the 1980's which shows that professionals like those in the medical profession often needed to do training outside of Luxembourg. MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES IN LUXEMBOURG: A VIEW FROM THE STATE HOSPITAL on JSTOR
 
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  • #307
It’s very sad but so common. As I’ve said before I believe Marion was the victim of an elaborate Romance scam possibly involving more than one person.

This was before the days of Internet dating but even if the perpetrator never step foot inside Australia there could always be written and phone contact (this is why I would have looked at her phone records for International calls).

She was vulnerable and as Sally has said gullible. An intellectual charmer could easily manipulate her into travelling 10000 miles away from her life & family in Australia.

Stealing the money and possessions was probably the more difficult part.
Everything seems so elaborate though if it was a scam. The name change and the great lengths someone would go too in order to make the scam work. Why not just find a wealthy widow to seduce with not many family members who would become suspicious. It kind of stands out like a sore thumb with the flowery name change (excuse the pun) and the abrupt trip back to Australia then money withdrawals.
 
  • #308
Does anyone have any recollection of her passenger card leaving on the 22nd 1997, specifically, an explanation for why she didn't place a check mark on D, E, or F? She also seemed to have checked a section (that I can't read) on section E "Resident departing temporarily." Does anyone know what this says that she checked off? The only pictures I can find are from the Facebook page and they aren't clear.
 
  • #309
I have been thinking again and an elaborate twist could be that Marion met and married a spy which is why all the secrecy, the name change and keeping any relationship hidden from her family. As an example this article is about Gabrielle Kliem who had a relationship with a spy during the cold war but it still happens today. Feature: The Stasi 'romeos' of West Germany during the cold war
 
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  • #310
I have been thinking again and an elaborate twist could be that Marion met and married a spy which is why all the secrecy. This article was about the cold war but it still happens. Sex Espionage: The World of Stasi Romeos
Those were women with access to information.

On the other hand, if she wasn't a target of the spying, but he married her for non-professional reasons, it would be more discreet not to tell her there was a reason for secrecy, and not to disappear her. Don't you think?
 
  • #311
Does anyone have any recollection of her passenger card leaving on the 22nd 1997, specifically, an explanation for why she didn't place a check mark on D, E, or F? She also seemed to have checked a section (that I can't read) on section E "Resident departing temporarily." Does anyone know what this says that she checked off? The only pictures I can find are from the Facebook page and they aren't clear.

this is a more recent one - still looking for a 1997 copy - but it may give you an idea of what each section says

upload_2021-7-18_11-39-21.png
 
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  • #312
Does anyone have any recollection of her passenger card leaving on the 22nd 1997, specifically, an explanation for why she didn't place a check mark on D, E, or F? She also seemed to have checked a section (that I can't read) on section E "Resident departing temporarily." Does anyone know what this says that she checked off? The only pictures I can find are from the Facebook page and they aren't clear.
H'mm, it's hard to find a clear copy of this one ... will try and find one, maybe in one of the video clips, will have a look - someone here will come up with one. Most excellent point, no ticks in the E or F circle - it does look like someone's come along and added the detail in the F column - maybe they told Marion they did it as a joke, for a lark, and that no-one reads them any way, so "haha, let's have some fun"? I've been mostly focusing on the Incoming card, but now I look at it, this one is very sus, haven't looked at it in a long time. Thanks FullMinder for bringing it up.
 
  • #313
Those were women with access to information.

On the other hand, if she wasn't a target of the spying, but he married her for non-professional reasons, it would be more discreet not to tell her there was a reason for secrecy, and not to disappear her. Don't you think?

It is interesting that the witness on the certificate Lord Flimsy and Star Chance ordered is the same surname as the spy's wife so could be related? The marriage witness has also done a book review about spies and espionage. Maybe there is some kind of connection with all of this. Marion and her lover could have both married in the UK using different names then disappeared. (An interesting documentary on you tube is The lovers of East German Romeo spies).
 
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  • #314
It is interesting that the witness on the certificate Lord Flimsy and Star Chance ordered is the same surname as the spy's wife so could be related? The marriage witness has also done a book review about spies and espionage. Maybe there is some kind of connection with all of this. Marion and her lover could have both married in the UK using different names then disappeared.
When you get married don't you have to produce identification? If so Marion would have needed to change her name again before marrying. I wonder why a spy would have wanted to disappear--perhaps a defector, an ex-spy, who was at risk of being murdered?
 
  • #315
When you get married don't you have to produce identification? If so Marion would have needed to change her name again before marrying. I wonder why a spy would have wanted to disappear--perhaps a defector, an ex-spy, who was at risk of being murdered?
As Lord Peter Flimsy pointed out there have been very few recent 'Jungblut' female marriages in the UK. One of the Jungblut's living in the UK was Louis H K H Jungblut who changed his name by deepoll too George Ernest Grahame after WW2 and married someone under his new name. He is listed as an internee in the National Archives (a person who is confined as a prisoner, especially for political or military reasons political or war prisoner).
 
  • #316
As Lord Peter Flimsy pointed out there have been very few recent 'Jungblut' female marriages in the UK. One of the Jungblut's living in the UK was Louis H K H Jungblut who changed his name by deepoll too George Ernest Grahame after WW2 and married someone under his new name. He is listed as an internee in the National Archives (a person who is confined as a prisoner, especially for political or military reasons political or war prisoner).
**Louis Hermann Karl Heinrich Jungblut*
 
  • #317
@JLZ - I married in England a couple of years after Marion's disappearance and I just don't believe the "fake wedding" theory. Government bureaucracy in the UK is pretty inflexible as anyone who has lived here, had children here or got married here will know. You simply couldn't rock up to the register office and give fake names, and get married. We needed all the sort of ID you'd expect to have to provide - driving licence, passport, something with address to prove where we lived.

So in order for Marion to have had a wedding in the UK just days after she'd arrived, she would have had to change her name again, get new documents issued in that name, convince a registrar that it was kosher, and also get them to turn a blind eye to the fact that she wasn't legally allowed to marry in the UK on a tourist visa, and hadn't been in the country long enough to get married? Not buying it at all, I'm afraid.

She said she was married on her return to Australia, but she also said a lot of other things we know are not true. She may have been "married" unofficially in some quasi-religious ceremony or considered herself married in a "we're committed" sense, who knows. Or was just trying to cover her tracks further by arriving in Aus as a married woman called Florabella rather than a single/divorced woman called Marion. Who knows.

The whole speculation about spies and espionage is just too far-fetched. This is 1997 we're talking about, the Berlin wall had fallen, the USSR had disintegrated. I also agree that many people with German surnames changed them in the first half of the 20th century, even the Royal Family adopted Windsor rather than Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.
 
  • #318
Are there places in Europe or Asia where it would have been easy to Marry (like a Las Vegas type place)?

I don’t know that the info on her passenger card was necessarily untrue. If she married (or believed she was married) to a man living in Luxembourg—then the on the card may be truthful. Seems like purposefully lying on the passenger card would introduce an unnecessary (possibly significant) legal risk that Marion would want to avoid.
 
  • #319
The "marriage" or promised marriage could have been part of a romance scam.

I'm guessing a marriage never eventuated. Or if there was one it was all fake.

Though I still don't believe that Marion had a huge enough fortune that would attract scammers that would go to the lengths of having a fake wedding.

Unless part of her storage of artwork etc was worth a lot. I'm wondering now if Marion ever tried to sell any paintings and that might have caught the attenton of con people.
 
  • #320
There are always political spies like Amir Laty whose name I mention purely as an example of spies in Australia. I am not sure if Marion was a political person though so probably not a target person to cultivate romantic liaisons with unless someone was courting her for non-professional reasons.
As Tootsie Footsie just mentioned the "marriage" or promised marriage could have been part of a romance scam. I do think the romance scam theory is more credible than my spy one :)
 
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