Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes indeed, the bank statements, everything was in the mail in 1997, did they go to Lesley's too ... did someone come and collect her mail later or was it forwarded on to a PO Box in a bundle later? I really wonder if anyone actually heard a female voice on a phone confirming it was Marion, or just males in official positions confirming it. If there was a female voice, either it was Marion's or an accomplice ..... got no idea really. This snippet below from The Lady Vanishes is what has me curious .....

Episode 4 - Taken (time: 5.45 mins) :
"Unhappy with the way police were handling the matter, Marion's father Jack approached the Salvation Army's Family Tracing Service to try and track her down."
"... I asked what identification had been made. They said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and had been told that she didn't want her whereabouts known. They said that the bank's security were like police and they were satisfied with their identification and if I wanted to probe further, get a private detective and start at Byron Bay."

Wow! Thanks for clarifying that itsapuzzle. That's really interesting.
I wonder if the police rested on the Banks advise that they had spoken with Marion when classifying her as located? It's not an unreasonable action because the Bank would only contact Marion via contact details held on their system (which is secure) and would verify her identity before speaking to her. So if Marion told the bank she wasnt missing and wanted no contact with her family, this being passed on to the police from the bank may have been sufficient for the police to mark her as located and close the missing person case. That makes a lot of sense

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes I agree, however if she was meant to be travelling overseas for a year ,then its strange she had a phone number to give them.

True. In order to keep her transaction accounts she would have to have a residential address and number though. I wonder if the details she gave were for Lesley. She stayed with Lesley immediately before leaving, perhaps this is who she stayed with when she returned. Once Marion was established somewhere on her return it's pretty easy to update contact details.

 

[Mel 1303]

The bank would have updated her contact details when she sold the house. It would be part of the discharge activity.

I completely agree- expect that she had more than one bank. According to the podcast, it was the commonwealth bank she was withdrawing money from in Byron, and the Colonial state in Ashmore.

 

[Brejay53]

Thanks Rosewood- your dates now added

October 3, 1945- Born in Marrickville

1950ish- moved to Brisbane.

1957ish- Moved to Oyster Bay

Dec 1967- Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

1971- Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.

June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

1993- Interviewed for position at TSS

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

June 4th- Sally’s Engagement Patty where she saw her ex and son.

June 23 1997- Left Australia from Brisbane airport

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday to sister Diedre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the orient express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she wont be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Passport returns to Australia

August 30- postcard sent from Thunbridge England to Marions family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.

Sept 3rd where AFP claim Marion entered a he country again. I personally think this date fits better with everything else including when money was withdrawn.

September 13 1997- Marion visits doctor in Grafton

October 18th 1997 Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marions father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sallys first child born

March 6, 2002- Owen dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marions father, dies.

2004- her money from Barclays in the uk was returned to the commonwealth as untouched funds after 7 years. I find this very odd

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

When “Clark Hunter” messaged to say Natalia is alive was it public knowledge Marion had changed her name to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel?

 

[Brejay53]

Yes I agree, however if she was meant to be travelling overseas for a year ,then its strange she had a phone number to give them.

I think she gave them Lesley contact info and kept in regular contact with her.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I wonder what phone number they contacted her on. Marion AKA Florabella must of gave bank contact details?

Yes indeed, would love to see if there’s documentation saying these bank security people rang the old Southport address phone number and spoke to her ... wouldn’t that be something! Gotcha ....

 

[Mel 1303]

When “Clark Hunter” messaged to say Natalia is alive was it public knowledge Marion had changed her name to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel?

It was known to Sally, but I don't know if it was it publicly known. Great point, will see what I can find!!!

 

[sunnynz]

Spontaneous thought .... if Marion wanted to start a whole new life why on earth would she come back to Australia? She was already overseas, had the choice of many new exciting places to settle in to begin again, so many new countries to explore ..... who in their right mind would come back to Australia, let alone return to own home State .... logically it makes no sense at all .

Because that was the easiest way for her to withdraw the money maybe?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

New thoughts .... if there is a coronial inquest Leslie wouldn't necessarily have to go in the witness box, would probably suffice if she made a fresh statement to police and it could simply be read to court as her evidence, that would be more agreeable should it get to that point.
PS: Precisely 7.30 pm here in Melbourne now .... Episode 11 due to land in 4 hours 31 minutes .... but who's counting

 

[Brejay53]

New thoughts .... if there is a coronial inquest Leslie wouldn't necessarily have to go in the witness box, would probably suffice if she made a fresh statement to police and it could simply be read to court as her evidence, that would be more agreeable should it get to that point.
PS: Precisely 7.30 pm here in Melbourne now .... Episode 11 due to land in 4 hours 31 minutes .... but who's counting

We all find Lesley’s behaviour bizarre. Yes she spoke to the police but I don’t know why she won’t speak to Sally. She doesn’t have to appear on the podcast. I’m sure sally would speak to her in private and any info that was relevant to finding Marion could just be stated as from “a source” kinda thing.
She’s probably totally innocent and doesn’t know anything but because of her telling police she doesn’t wish to speak to Sally it makes her look guilty in our eyes..

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I completely agree- expect that she had more than one bank. According to the podcast, it was the commonwealth bank she was withdrawing money from in Byron, and the Colonial state in Ashmore.

Oh yes that's right, good point.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

We all find Lesley’s behaviour bizarre. Yes she spoke to the police but I don’t know why she won’t speak to Sally. She doesn’t have to appear on the podcast. I’m sure sally would speak to her in private and any info that was relevant to finding Marion could just be stated as from “a source” kinda thing.
She’s probably totally innocent and doesn’t know anything but because of her telling police she doesn’t wish to speak to Sally it makes her look guilty in our eyes..

I actually feel really sorry for Lesley. I think if she has clearly communicated she doesnt want to talk to Sally she should be left alone. She spoke with police.
If Lesley did assist Marion in disappearing and keeping it secret the only thing she is guilty of is being a good friend.
If she didnt assist Marion like Marion's sisters she may not see any value in dredging it all up again (especially pubically) and be fed up at continuing to be drawn into something she doesnt want to be a part of. This isnt the first time Sally has reached out to the media for help and Lesley may have had poor experiences with those other times.

 

[Brejay53]

I actually feel really sorry for Lesley. I think if she has clearly communicated she doesnt want to talk to Sally she should be left alone. She spoke with police.
If Lesley did assist Marion in disappearing and keeping it secret the only thing she is guilty of is being a good friend.
If she didnt assist Marion like Marion's sisters she may not see any value in dredging it all up again (especially pubically) and be fed up at continuing to be drawn into something she doesnt want to be a part of. This isnt the first time Sally has reached out to the media for help and Lesley may have had poor experiences with those other times.

Yes I totally get that.. I think as more and more stuff is uncovered weekly and there is more and more unanswered questions that some think she may be able to answer. The police are not going to ask her as they are not really interested.
Just a weird situation really.. Marion’s best friend and she’s not wanting to talk to her daughter. Maybe she feels intimidated by the whole media thing and it all being very public. I guess unless we was in her position we don’t really know..

 

[Brejay53]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on episode 11?
I’m thinking either he is infact the correct Fernand
OR the name on the advertisement was made up and it literally is just a load of coincidences..

 

[inkpink]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on episode 11?
I’m thinking either he is infact the correct Fernand
OR the name on the advertisement was made up and it literally is just a load of coincidences..

So many coincidences...

 

[Mel 1303]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on episode 11?
I’m thinking either he is infact the correct Fernand
OR the name on the advertisement was made up and it literally is just a load of coincidences..

I'm still up in the air on F Remakel. There are people named Remakel in Luxembourg, and Marion listed herself as living in Luxembourg, but the ad was written in French, not Luxembourgish. Marion apparently spoke French.

I have to say, if I was an older person, with two woman walking up to my door while two men I had never met sat in the car filming me, I might be someone reluctant to chat. And if my partner of 40 years is standing next to me, I might be even less likely to discuss a lonely hearts ad from 2o odd years ago, especially if I wrote it! If he speaks English, why would he be putting an ad in a French speaking newspaper in Australia?

 

[Rosewood]

I feel sorry for F Remakel. If he was approached better I think they would have more results. I honestly think he has nothing to do with it.
Now his name had been sensationalised with people all over the world calling him a controlling murderer without merit or reason.
I also think the email sent afterwards was aggressive and accusatory- asking for proof of where he was in 1994.
If someone rocked up to my place acting like I was a murderer with a camera crew I would be livid.

 

[Mel 1303]

I feel sorry for F Remakel. If he was approached better I think they would have more results. I honestly think he has nothing to do with it.
Now his name had been sensationalised with people all over the world calling him a controlling murderer without merit or reason.
I also think the email sent afterwards was aggressive and accusatory- asking for proof of where he was in 1994.
If someone rocked up to my place acting like I was a murderer with a camera crew I would be livid.

The ad says M.F.Remakel- why aren't we looking for people whose names start with M? Is it a French thing?

 

[I-am-skippy]

Good morning I am a newbie so apologies if this has already been spoken about but curious to know if the PO BOX at Lennox Heads mentioned in advert for M.F Remakel has been looked into. Would there be any records of the owner of that PO Box and an address or contact details available?

 

[TheOracle66]

I just watched the last podcast. Mr Remakel didn't have anything to do with Marions disappearance. Maybe he is guilty of cheating on his long term partner at the worst. I do think the advertisement was his so he is not going to admit that infront of his his partner. His partner did say that Mr Remakel has not been to australia. SO maybe he did travel to australia and was lonely lol and lied to her where he went. His ex wife said he was a good man. I really believe that marion probably joined some cult and is still living with them. The whole disappearance stinks and it is very selfish of Marion to have not advised her family. Maybe when she passes away it will be recorded by births deaths and marriages because I cant imagine members of a cult would just bury her in the forest (as bad as cults are).