Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997

[Itsapuzzle]

I wonder if Sally ever spoke to her Mum's neighbours to see if they remembered the truck coming to collect her Mums things??

Yes, good point Intrigued, and maybe Lesley remembers which company Marion used to store her belongings.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes, good point Intrigued, and maybe Lesley remembers which company Marion used to store her belongings.

It would make sense that Lesleys address was used on the documentation for the storage container because Marin was staying with her at the time and Lesley was the redirection for mail.
I keep coming back to the mail redirection but it has been given frustratingly little attention in the podcast. If Marion collected/had items delivered there would be receipts and other documentation issued (mail) but the company would likely confirm the new address before sending. If Marion’s items were uncollected, the first step by the company would be to issue a reminder letter and the contact address they had would have been Lesley’s. The process from friendly reminder to we’re selling/disposing of your stuff would be over a course of time with correspondence issued at each step by the company/agent. Companies often use registered mail to demonstrate the mail was physically received so it makes no sense that Sally doesn't have these details unless Lesley was sending mail back return to sender. There would have been quite a lot of mail about the shipping container (if it was unclaimed) and there also would have been attempts at contact from Barclays Bank and the Super provider before those funds were sent to unclaimed monies too.

The mail redirection is really bugging me I wish we knew more. Sally confirmed Lesley was the redirection point but she didn’t say much more than that. Mail redirection can be set up for 3, 6 or 12 months. It can be extended on expiration otherwise the mail goes back to being delivered to wherever it is addressed. If the redirection expired, you’d expect the new owner of Marion’s house to suddenly start getting mail. When Sally spoke about him she didn’t mention anything about mail so it doesn’t seem as if that happened. If mail continued to go to Lesley for more than 12 months, then Marion either extended the redirection or changed her address to Lesley’s (which you can nominate via the redirection). Sally vaguely mentioned mail had been returned to her over the years which suggests the mail arrangement was ongoing, but if that is the case she should have had mail about the storage container (which would have started coming around a month out form the collection date), and from the bank/super companies.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Yes, good point Intrigued, and maybe Lesley remembers which company Marion used to store her belongings.

Maybe Marion gifted Lesley those belongings?

So many possibilities. So few answers.

 

[sunnynz]

It would make sense that Lesleys address was used on the documentation for the storage container because Marin was staying with her at the time and Lesley was the redirection for mail.
I keep coming back to the mail redirection but it has been given frustratingly little attention in the podcast. If Marion collected/had items delivered there would be receipts and other documentation issued (mail) but the company would likely confirm the new address before sending. If Marion’s items were uncollected, the first step by the company would be to issue a reminder letter and the contact address they had would have been Lesley’s. The process from friendly reminder to we’re selling/disposing of your stuff would be over a course of time with correspondence issued at each step by the company/agent. Companies often use registered mail to demonstrate the mail was physically received so it makes no sense that Sally doesn't have these details unless Lesley was sending mail back return to sender. There would have been quite a lot of mail about the shipping container (if it was unclaimed) and there also would have been attempts at contact from Barclays Bank and the Super provider before those funds were sent to unclaimed monies too.

The mail redirection is really bugging me I wish we knew more. Sally confirmed Lesley was the redirection point but she didn’t say much more than that. Mail redirection can be set up for 3, 6 or 12 months. It can be extended on expiration otherwise the mail goes back to being delivered to wherever it is addressed. If the redirection expired, you’d expect the new owner of Marion’s house to suddenly start getting mail. When Sally spoke about him she didn’t mention anything about mail so it doesn’t seem as if that happened. If mail continued to go to Lesley for more than 12 months, then Marion either extended the redirection or changed her address to Lesley’s (which you can nominate via the redirection). Sally vaguely mentioned mail had been returned to her over the years which suggests the mail arrangement was ongoing, but if that is the case she should have had mail about the storage container (which would have started coming around a month out form the collection date), and from the bank/super companies.

Perhaps Marion gave a different address to the storage company (and others?). The address of the man she was with at maccas? Just because Lesley had some mail sent to her doesn’t mean all mail was.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Perhaps Marion gave a different address to the storage company (and others?). The address of the man she was with at maccas? Just because Lesley had some mail sent to her doesn’t mean all mail was.

That's possible sunnynz. And then again there's always the chance that Marion came back in the August meaning there was no time for any mail to build up anyway, only a month or so had passed, may have slipped back in the country, collected the stored goods and registered a new address in mystery man's name .... then something went sour. Just a thought.

 

[sunnynz]

That's possible sunnynz. And then again there's always the chance that Marion came back in the August meaning there was no time for any mail to build up anyway, only a month or so had passed, may have slipped back in the country, collected the stored goods and registered a new address in mystery man's name .... then something went sour. Just a thought.

Yes I think that's definitely a possibility. I feel strongly that there is a man involved in all of this and it went wrong in some way.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Perhaps Marion gave a different address to the storage company (and others?). The address of the man she was with at maccas? Just because Lesley had some mail sent to her doesn’t mean all mail was.

Maybe. Particularly if the storage container was in the Florabella name because that would give separation to her former and future lives. However just because a man was seen in a car with Marion doesnt mean they were in a relationship.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Yes I think that's definitely a possibility. I feel strongly that there is a man involved in all of this and it went wrong in some way.

I agree with you sunnynz that she must have had help to do what she did.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Beep beep ..... new wacky thoughts coming through. Marion was allegedly only overseas for around a month. Also seemed to be staying in the one location, around Tunbridge Wells area for the time. Could she have been there for a monthly induction course for something, I don't know what, might have a bit of a look around. Maybe didn't stay in hotel accommodation either, may have been housed with someone doing the course/or group member. Then after the induction, returned to take up a position in Australia. Too nuts, or possible .... not sure. Beep beep.

 

[sunnynz]

Beep beep ..... new wacky thoughts coming through. Marion was allegedly only overseas for around a month. Also seemed to be staying in the one location, around Tunbridge Wells area for the time. Could she have been there for a monthly induction course for something, I don't know what, might have a bit of a look around. Maybe didn't stay in hotel accommodation either, may have been housed with someone doing the course/or group member. Then after the induction, returned to take up a position in Australia. Too nuts, or possible .... not sure. Beep beep.

Yes is it a bit odd to go all that way only to stay in one area? Do we know for sure that she didn’t travel elsewhere around the UK?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Beep beep ..... new wacky thoughts coming through. Marion was allegedly only overseas for around a month. Also seemed to be staying in the one location, around Tunbridge Wells area for the time. Could she have been there for a monthly induction course for something, I don't know what, might have a bit of a look around. Maybe didn't stay in hotel accommodation either, may have been housed with someone doing the course/or group member. Then after the induction, returned to take up a position in Australia. Too nuts, or possible .... not sure. Beep beep.

Interesting thought. The only snag (I’m sorry that I’m always playing devils advocate) would be a tax file number. The podcast said that there has been no activity under either Marion/Florabella name.

I’ve been thinking about how Marion could manage without a drivers licence, tax file number etc. One possibility is she could have set up a home day care and taken cash payments to avoid the taxman. But then where was she living - I assume the police could locate her through a rental agreement.

The police have said that there were no further name changes after Florabella, but maybe she changed her name through marriage while in the UK. The podcast says they checked Luxemburg for marriage records but I don’t know if G-Britain has been checked. Marion changed her name to Florabella before leaving Australia, but what if she then married (let call mystery man John Smith) when she was in GB? Florabella Ramekel would then become Florabella Smith, making her more difficult for her family to trace because Florabella Smith has no connection in Australia to Marion Barter. If marriage to a UK citizen entitled Marion to a UK passport she could travel under her Florabella Smith name and if Marion stayed in Australia after returning from the UK she would then have a primary identification (passport) and a secondary identification (marriage cert) document in her Smith name -potentially enabling her to set up life. All very far-fetched and implausible, unsure if its even possible just musing.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

H'mm, am beginning to wonder about groups like, um, Churches of Christ .... err, what are they all about!! Would they plant someone with an ad in a French newspaper to lure someone in, with funds? Not sure, must investigate. Had a look at where Marion lived in Merinda Court, and there are Churches of Christ very nearby ... not sure if they were there back in the day, but there now .... but wait, maybe they were door knocking at the time .... maybe they caught Marion at a time when she was distressed about TSS and the ratbag staff (discloser - my opinion only re ratbag colleagues) she was working with ... who knows, and may have got in that way .... just a thought ... shall investigate!!

 

[sunnynz]

Interesting thought. The only snag (I’m sorry that I’m always playing devils advocate) would be a tax file number. The podcast said that there has been no activity under either Marion/Florabella name.

I’ve been thinking about how Marion could manage without a drivers licence, tax file number etc. One possibility is she could have set up a home day care and taken cash payments to avoid the taxman. But then where was she living - I assume the police could locate her through a rental agreement.

The police have said that there were no further name changes after Florabella, but maybe she changed her name through marriage while in the UK. The podcast says they checked Luxemburg for marriage records but I don’t know if G-Britain has been checked. Marion changed her name to Florabella before leaving Australia, but what if she then married (let call mystery man John Smith) when she was in GB? Florabella Ramekel would then become Florabella Smith, making her more difficult for her family to trace because Florabella Smith has no connection in Australia to Marion Barter. If marriage to a UK citizen entitled Marion to a UK passport she could travel under her Florabella Smith name and if Marion stayed in Australia after returning from the UK she would then have a primary identification (passport) and a secondary identification (marriage cert) document in her Smith name -potentially enabling her to set up life. All very far-fetched and implausible, unsure if its even possible just musing.

Not so far fetched really. The case of Lori Kennedy is a perfect example of someone changing their name multiple times to allow them to disappear.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Not so far fetched really. The case of Lori Kennedy is a perfect example of someone changing their name multiple times to allow them to disappear.

Whoa, sunny, thanks so much for sharing about the case of Lori Kennedy, had never heard of it. Just had a read of it, cracker of a story, and the summing up at the bottom with timeline and documents, completely interesting. H'mm, taking on someone else's identity .....
Quite a sad story.
‘My God, that’s Kimberly!’: Scientist solves perplexing mystery of identity thief Lori Ruff
Police Discover The Horrifying Truth Behind His Wife’s Secret Past After Finding Her Safe

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Not so far fetched really. The case of Lori Kennedy is a perfect example of someone changing their name multiple times to allow them to disappear.

Wow! Thanks Sunnynz I've never heard of this case. So sad she never reached out to her family.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Spontaneous Sunday morning breakfast thoughts ..... a lot of people who deliberately disappear are escaping from something ...... strict parents, step-parents, abuse, abusive partners, paying maintenance, to have children with someone else .... none of this fits for Marion, it’s all so peculiar - the name change throws everything into confusion though, unless of course that was merely for safety for travelling, a red herring now. Maybe she had an accident overseas and someone took her identity - I have so many theories, it’s shameful. It’s like Cliffy said, “so many possibilities, so few answers”. Now back to the Vegemite on toast

 

[natural sagacity]

Spontaneous Sunday morning breakfast thoughts ..... a lot of people who deliberately disappear are escaping from something ...... strict parents, step-parents, abuse, abusive partners, paying maintenance, to have children with someone else .... none of this fits for Marion, it’s all so peculiar - the name change throws everything into confusion though, unless of course that was merely for safety for travelling, a red herring now. Maybe she had an accident overseas and someone took her identity - I have so many theories, it’s shameful. It’s like Cliffy said, “so many possibilities, so few answers”. Now back to the Vegemite on toast

Maybe there doesn't have to be a justifiable reason. I read an interesting case of
Petra Pazsitka who is a German woman had disappeared for over 30 and was even deemed dead by the authorities. Well she wasn't dead and was only found when he had a break in at her residence and was asked by police to show id. It turned out to she had disappeared 31 years previously. She gave no reason for her disappearance and refused to make contact with her family. The story proves that people lead a normal life right up to the minute they decide to go missing. Petra even went to the dentist, finished her PHD and bought her brother a birthday present on the day she left.

 

[natural sagacity]

The amount of media attention the Marion Barter case is beyond ridiculous. I think it is time to move on and focus attention on people who have been murdered, not people who do not want to be found.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Maybe there doesn't have to be a justifiable reason. I read an interesting case of
Petra Pazsitka who is a German woman had disappeared for over 30 and was even deemed dead by the authorities. Well she wasn't dead and was only found when he had a break in at her residence and was asked by police to show id. It turned out to she had disappeared 31 years previously. She gave no reason for her disappearance and refused to make contact with her family. The story proves that people lead a normal life right up to the minute they decide to go missing. Petra even went to the dentist, finished her PHD and bought her brother a birthday present on the day she left.

Good points natural sagacity, fair enough, but she was 24 when she left .... Marion was 51 ..... are there any cases in that sort of age for an unmarried woman, that's the curious part for me, would be most interested.
On another topic ..... I'd never looked at the Missing Persons Register before, had a look yesterday, oh my, so many faces looking back at me, all vanished, without a trace. Very sad.
https://missingpersons.gov.au/view-all-profiles

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Maybe there doesn't have to be a justifiable reason. I read an interesting case of
Petra Pazsitka who is a German woman had disappeared for over 30 and was even deemed dead by the authorities. Well she wasn't dead and was only found when he had a break in at her residence and was asked by police to show id. It turned out to she had disappeared 31 years previously. She gave no reason for her disappearance and refused to make contact with her family. The story proves that people lead a normal life right up to the minute they decide to go missing. Petra even went to the dentist, finished her PHD and bought her brother a birthday present on the day she left.

Good point