Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[vivienbee]

I think an alternate theory (I have nine million of them going around my brain so here we go) is that it was Marion who returned to Aus and she was alive for a period of time after she came back. However, someone else was making the withdrawals from her account. RB and an accomplice may have been taking out the $5000 a day, thinking that this would not initially attract too much suspicion whilst she remained blissfully unaware under his spell. He could bleed her dry gradually before vanishing into thin air. Then, just prior to October, something went wrong and/or they got impatient, getting rid of Marion and finally transferring the last chunk in one go.
Just a possibility, maybe not that probable, don't come for me.

 

[BonnieB]

But by that same logic, why would RB? If the ID was convincing enough for someone to pass as Marion for multiple daily withdrawals over a longer period, which would have seemed highly suspicious IMO, why didn't whoever was posing as Marion just transfer the whole amount elsewhere? I know transferring funds to another account would leave more of a paper trail, but $80k funds were eventually transferred elsewhere. This idea would make more sense to me if the large withdrawal didn't exist, but none of the whole bank situation seems to make sense, regardless of who was taking the money out.

UNLESS...It was RB who withdrew the money!! A handful of withdrawal slips, he had a specimen signature & he was an accomplished forger. He may even have forged another document with his photo ID for proof. The name 'Marion' is a MALE name of French origin (I believe that was John Wayne's real name) He had a French accent and Byron is a well known tourist town and the bank would have been accustomed to overseas travellers. Perhaps one of the tellers became a bit too suspicious so he used Burleigh for a few days. He could have conjured up any excuse for needing large sums of money (buying a motorhome to travel for example)

 

[Bibno]

deleted

 

[gymtonic]

But by that same logic, why would RB? If the ID was convincing enough for someone to pass as Marion for multiple daily withdrawals over a longer period, which would have seemed highly suspicious IMO, why didn't whoever was posing as Marion just transfer the whole amount elsewhere? I know transferring funds to another account would leave more of a paper trail, but $80k funds were eventually transferred elsewhere. This idea would make more sense to me if the large withdrawal didn't exist, but none of the whole bank situation seems to make sense, regardless of who was taking the money out.

MOO: Withdrawing $5000 a day by an imposter posing as MB raises many fewer flags than closing an account and withdrawing $80,000. In small country towns in Queensland and northern NSW (Byron particularly sleepy and casual) at the time, I can see someone getting away with the first, especially if the bank tellers don't do things entirely by the book (having been spun a tall tale of some sort?). Of course questioned about this afterwards, they would not be likely to admit they were pretty casual about it and would be quoting what the official procedure was. The second withdrawing (transferring?) the balance of $80,000 and closing an account would definitely require more official procedures to be followed, and it is problematical IMO.

 

[gymtonic]

UNLESS...It was RB who withdrew the money!! A handful of withdrawal slips, he had a specimen signature & he was an accomplished forger. He may even have forged another document with his photo ID for proof. The name 'Marion' is a MALE name of French origin (I believe that was John Wayne's real name) He had a French accent and Byron is a well known tourist town and the bank would have been accustomed to overseas travellers. Perhaps one of the tellers became a bit too suspicious so he used Burleigh for a few days. He could have conjured up any excuse for needing large sums of money (buying a motorhome to travel for example)

I reckon your observation Marion being derived from a male French name could be an extremely important observation! of course! sheds a whole new light on some things. Good sleuthing!

 

[BonnieB]

His FNR Queensland Driving Licence would be very useful in this situation.

Sorry, I must be having a blonde moment, I don't understand how. Do you mean to forge the "marion" name onto it?

 

[BonnieB]

MOO: Withdrawing $5000 a day by an imposter posing as MB raises many fewer flags than closing an account and withdrawing $80,000. In small country towns in Queensland and northern NSW (Byron particularly sleepy and casual) at the time, I can see someone getting away with the first, especially if the bank tellers don't do things entirely by the book (having been spun a tall tale of some sort?). Of course questioned about this afterwards, they would not be likely to admit they were pretty casual about it and would be quoting what the official procedure was. The second withdrawing (transferring?) the balance of $80,000 and closing an account would definitely require more official procedures to be followed, and it is problematical IMO.

Absolutely! And I recall the comments in the podcast that Byron was quite a busy bank at that time with tourists coming to visit the iconic lighthouse. Different teller each day, at the busiest time of day. I think it was risky but do-able.

 

[gymtonic]

Sorry, I must be having a blonde moment, I don't understand how. Do you mean to forge the "marion" name onto it?

I think I understand.... RB has a DL with the name FNR and other ID from MB with the name FNMR on it. If scrutinised and questioned about the difference he says "Oh, I also 'ave anozzer middle name Marion mais...because it is a French boy's name *shrug in a French way*, I don't use it because it is a leettle 'ow you say embarrasse...because 'ere it is a girl's name". Unworldly Northern NSW bank bank teller falls for this exotic tale.

[except the bank teller does swear it was a woman?? or am I now mis-remembering this?]
EDIT: scrub the above scenario because he would have to explain away Florabella and Natalia too! I think I had a brain snap!

 

[Bibno]

Sorry, I must be having a blonde moment, I don't understand how. Do you mean to forge the "marion" name onto it?

Sorry, I didn't mean that. I have deleted my post.

 

[vivienbee]

Wouldn't the funds have had to be withdrawn under her new identification though, due to her official name change? Florabella Natalia is harder to spin as a male name.

 

[Zanzibar]

For a rather random link.....https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...n/news-story/527dcefad0823a9a449d215b15d20196

The walkers travelled to Southampton on the MS Shota Rustaveli, when I searched this popped up, none other than some KGB agents on board!

 

[BonnieB]

I think I understand.... RB has a DL with the name FNR and other ID from MB with the name FNMR on it. If scrutinised and questioned about the difference he says "Oh, I also 'ave anozzer middle name Marion mais...because it is a French boy's name *shrug in a French way*, I don't use it because it is a leettle 'ow you say embarrasse...because 'ere it is a girl's name". Unworldly Northern NSW bank bank teller falls for this exotic tale.

[except the bank teller does swear it was a woman?? or am I now mis-remembering this?]

1. The person the teller remembered may well have been the real Marion initially.
2. The teller was too afraid of losing her job after allowing a male to pose as a woman.
IMO, he simply posed as a male Marion Barter, probably with an additional form of ID if required and speaking broken 'French' english to evade any awkward questions.

 

[BonnieB]

Wouldn't the funds have had to be withdrawn under her new identification though, due to her official name change? Florabella Natalia is harder to spin as a male name.

Her bank account was still under the Marion Barter name.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

This does make sense! Then maybe old mate intervened after she did that?

Yes exactly. There’s literally 2 scenarios with this money and MB’s return.
A - it was Marion who flew back in and took the money out
B. Another person flew in on Marions passport and they stole the money. And something happened to Marion in UK (if she was in UK the entire time..) we know there were postcards/ phone calls etc but that could’ve been done in a week.. she could’ve travelled to Amsterdam/france/Belgium with old mate.. we don’t know for sure as there isn’t a witnesses that saw her in the UK for the entire time away.

If we think about A… there’s two things.. Marion withdrew with the intention of spending her life with this man and going back to Europe. Money withdrawn and something has happened to MB here in Australia.

or

Money withdrawn, she has been suss on some of his behaviour, and perhaps seen something.. another ID or found out about wife or kids..or just plain simple women’s intuition.. and she’s asked questions.. he has gotten frustrated/annoyed whatever.. an argument has occurred and it’s resulted in something happening here to Marion.

if we think about ‘B’scenario of someone using that passport.. then I believe that person was aware of the ultimate prize. The money from the house. Obviously RB cannot travel on Females passport.. So there’s an accomplice..
Female
Brunette
Around the same age. Friend of RB’s OS that has helped him before? A female from Australia that met him there.. travelled on one passport came back on the other? Someone in Japan perhaps? Marion has never returned and something happened to her in 1997?

My left of field scenario:

Marion was over it, all of it, wanted to run to Europe and life another life.. she met him, she confided in him… and he offered to help her disappear…he listened, understood and was there for her..
Unbeknownst to her.. his motives were to clear her accounts.. her motive she was tired, lonely, not enjoying her work or life here and was longing for something ‘more’
So he says he can help.. (who better to help than him) she agrees to pay him if he does…
She withdraws money paid him off and rode off into the Aussie sunset on her own to create a new MB.. or the UK account money was to pay him and there was a stuff up… and something has happened to her in Uk all those years ago.

or the Uk $20k was deliberately sent there, the post cards were all deliberately sent, the phone call you won’t here from me for a while to Sally was deliberate… so the family believed she was in UK when she disappeared. The entire trip was purely for them to believe she was there not here!

I don’t like my left of field scenario because I don’t want that to be it.. But I’d be lying if I didn’t say it had crossed my mind a couple of times.

Because if I wanted to have a different identity and lead a new life without any of my past ever coming into it.. he is a pretty good teacher for that.

 

[Liselle]

I think I understand.... RB has a DL with the name FNR and other ID from MB with the name FNMR on it. If scrutinised and questioned about the difference he says "Oh, I also 'ave anozzer middle name Marion mais...because it is a French boy's name *shrug in a French way*, I don't use it because it is a leettle 'ow you say embarrasse...because 'ere it is a girl's name". Unworldly Northern NSW bank bank teller falls for this exotic tale.

[except the bank teller does swear it was a woman?? or am I now mis-remembering this?]
EDIT: scrub the above scenario because he would have to explain away Florabella and Natalia too! I think I had a brain snap!

The name Marion is a boy's name of French origin meaning "drop of the sea, bitter, or beloved". (Google)

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm pretty sure that a man presenting anywhere in Australia with the first name Marion would be seen as maybe someone wanting to be seen as female if you know what I mean. It would have really stood out and probably been remembered.

I doubt that many people in Australia would know that Marion could possibly be a male name.

I have to say I was gobsmacked to learn years ago that it was one of John Wayne's names.

 

[ruby925]

The verified criminal record documents in NAA refer to this address in London.

Yes, I know that, but this address doesn't exist in London although it does in Australia near RB and I am sure he said (at the inquest)he knew Bernard Dupont, he was a friend. Just MOO.

 

[mishy66]

Just looking at all the various timelines posted here and I was wondering if there was evidence to say IK departed with WW on 15 Feb 1970 and that she married MJR in Hungary please?


15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary

 

[Roseberry]

Don't you think that "Marion" AKA DhH could have phoned the bank herself and she asked the bank to write on her file that she didn't want her family to know where she is or went there in person but insisted it went on file.

Yes, absolutely. But either way: Under this scenario: MB is under external pressure to deter investigation into her transactions; OR the alternate scenario an outside party (RB or accomplice) assumes MB identity and acts on her behalf. Either way/in any way context shape or form: coercion.

Wouldn't the funds have had to be withdrawn under her new identification though, due to her official name change? Florabella Natalia is harder to spin as a male name.

Wouldn't the funds have had to be withdrawn under her new identification though, due to her official name change? Florabella Natalia is harder to spin as a male name.

Please confirm - Were MB funds in Aus bank still under MB ID? For which RB (as in the case of JO) his MO would be to hold documents in MB name for ‘safekeeping’ and this be able to extract funds. The feminine FNR ID is for separate purpose; the MB harvest is for his sole purpose - the FNR documentation to execute a wider plan. (Also not unusual to have up to four forenames - feminine and masculine inclusive, due to godparents. How convenient.

 

[ruby925]

Great sleuthing! but I think we can settle on the expiry date of the QLD DL in the name FNR expiring on 2 December 1997, because I think that fabulous link you found is written in a different date format [YYYY- MM-DD or 1947-12-02] being 2 December 1947?? Can someone else check my reasoning?

Agreed, I read that birthdate on the link as 2Dec1947.