Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[gymtonic]

Thanks for the clarification Re the 4, I wonder why it was in the address?

There are other addresses in England that match this address at the time according to Ancestry. Some in London but some further afield. I listed them all earlier.

I agree though, the forged documents didn’t really need an actual address.

I guess you have to expect that there are possible typos with this transcript anyway. There is a definite typo that I know of because the transcript shows one conviction being recorded as APP Dousai. But this should be APP (Appellate Court) in Douai which is near Lille.
It's possible that the 4 is just a transcription error?
Even the multiple spellings of Lauzoney, Lazoney, Lauloney, Louzoney on various typed and handwritten documents through the NAA files make it hard to guess which ones were the spellings used by RB as aliases and which are transcription errors or misheard over phone call errors!

 

[gymtonic]

Probably nothing, but as Mr Aka is supposed to be from Belgium: i noticed that the 2 main “places” he talks about (Lille & Luxemburg) are also places in Belgium (Lille (near Antwerp) & Luxemburg (province). It’s probably nothing but it might help him making it difficult for people searching for clues.

Furthermore, the towns mentioned for his businesses & family have a dutch and a french name, totally different, which makes it also difficult to research.

For example: Tournai (french) = Doornik (dutch)

It might have been mentioned before, but it might help newcomers or people that get confused with those names/places while researching.

The Lille referred to in the Interpol Crime Record is definitely Lille in France though. And even though Lille is in France it really is on the French-Belgian border and very, very close to Tournai.

 

[gymtonic]

There’s always a grain of truth in Mr Akas stories, however he spins it. There are no coincidences- he’s ruthless and purposeful. Having listened to the inquest yet again Mr C constantly returns to Lille; “Or perhaps Lille?” Time and time again - from his initial fraud imprisonment to the present day. Who is the longstanding significant connection in Lille they are so concerned about? Apart from the step-brother-twice-removed-cousins he never connects with the Ilona or MC trail experts are probably heading there or may be able to shed some light. I suspect another DDeH type set-up - poorly attended to over the years but sustained nonetheless for his purposes. Lille is significant.

I agree there is something significant with Lille, because in the NAA files there is more than one piece of correspondence or telephone memo between Australian authorities asking for confirmation about whether there was a conviction (or served time...I will have to recheck) in Lille. It did strike me as odd that AC asked specifically about this and that RB vehemently denied this. I am also not sure of how it links to the MB inquest aims but it did seem important.

 

[Bagpus]

Omg!! Perhaps that’s it!! Maybe he wanted her to have that name so SHE could access accounts in Remekel’s name overseas??? Maybe the fleece was actually on the other FR or a female member of his family and Marion was caught in the middle??!!

Just wondering whether it was his original plan to fleece the real FNR somehow, using Marion with her new name. He realized late in the process that Marion had kept the name "Marion" in her new name and thereby scuppered the plan.

Having invested quite some time in this scam, he decided to fleece Marion instead, so as not to waste it all. Hence the handbrake turn back to Australia.

Not having thought it through from the beginning, there wasn't a clear exit strategy. Maybe this is why poor Marion is no longer with us.

Although not what he intended, he did make a cool $80k out of this turn of events. He had inadvertently found a new way to make sizeable amounts of money, and tried to repeat it with JO etc.

Doesn't help find Marion though.

 

[gymtonic]

I'm just going to leave this fact here for consideration:
RSVP (probably Australia's best known online dating site) started on 14 February 1997.

I realise that it has been mentioned before (as I put it in the search bar) but before we knew about RB!

 

[Pineconemind]

I am slowly making a connection to them. It would be great to get records after 1976 for sure!
Yes I am going with the ancestry link posted up by someone that I wish I could remember ha! It had IK parents listed as Father family name Kinczel and mothers maiden name Novotny.

It is a tricky one!

With that MJR listed March 1969 under complaints / requests makes it all the more curious!

Yep! I originally had posted this link Kinczel Josef Reid - St Kilda (ancientfaces.com) is this the one you mean or another one?

So tricky! IMO I just feel if we connect more of the dots from his past it could help us understand more with what happened to M.

 

[Pineconemind]

Strange that Ilona is flying Qantas and baby is flying KLM!

I did a quick google on the flight numbers before I switched off last night (I didn't delve into anything historic) and it looks as though the QF flight is a Sydney - Brisbane flight where as the KLM flight was Sydney - Bangkok - Amsterdam.

Although, I didn't delve into anything historic.

 

[Pineconemind]

I am not too sure when you got your first licence, but I have spoken to 5 friends now who say that their licence expiry date is their birthday and all 5 of us got our original licences in the 80s. Consequently all subsequent expiry dates are our birthdays regardless of when we renewed.
I can explain the anomaly for your licence by hazarding a guess that the system changed at some point before you got your first licence? Possibly when it became computerised they were able to handle it differently. Definitely all of use remember the DL expiry dates being birthdays in the 80s.

Wow, really? not the case in my entire family who all have QLD licences including my 70 year old parents. Interesting! This makes no sense to me!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

In Australia Capital Gains Tax would usually apply. It would not have applied in this case as she sold the property for $15k less than what she originally purchased it for, therefore making no capital gain.

Yes, thanks! Just thinking RB could have encouraged her to sell at a loss so that no capital gains would leave less paper trail. Not major. Just a thought.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

A thought. RB had absolutely no intention of letting Marion get anywhere close to Luxembourg. He would have stopped that at all costs. He needed the Luxembourg ruse to get what he wanted, but then it had to be nipped, nipped, nipped. Had Marion gotten to Luxembourg-- or been left penniless and angry and gone to police with the whole story-- Luxembourg would have led directly to the real Remakel. And from there, the trail could lead fairly easily to RB.

 

[Pineconemind]

I feel like I've hit a bit of dead end with some of my searches. So I'm just going to think out loud for a lil second!


Some points that I can't get my head around:-


1. Marion telling people different versions of why she is going overseas and what she plans to do. Why? Why was she so secretive? Especially the picking up work or finding a school and maybe I'll move over permanently? You cant just move to the UK and start working as a teacher (without relevant visas etc etc), not even in 1997. Unless of course you were going down the direction of spousal visas etc / EU / European citizenship.


2. The Barclays Bank, if she knew she was going to change her name and her passport/ID, why did she not also change her bank accounts so she could access her money? And why wouldn't of Mr AKA picked up on this being the international man of fraud & forgery that he is. On one hand it makes me think the name change was such a last minute thing but such a silly one in retrospect to being able to access the cash, for either of them from the UK.


2. £20,000 pound is definietly not a small amount of money, but would it of been enough to last a year of travelling? I'm pretty sure M wasn't planning on budget/backpacking. £20,000 pound would work out to be around £109 a day over 6 months.

3. It's a big deal at any age going across the other side of the world as a "solo" female traveller. Especially for an unkown period of time. The fact she went to the airport alone via bus and took the route that she did just feels weird to me. And having to switch airports in Japan etc with all that luggage she had, if I remember correctly LL said she had 2 huge suitcases).

4. Arriving to the UK in 1997, surely she would of needed proof she had enough money to keep her afloat for her travel period (and a return ticket or ongoing ticket?), how did she prove this if her bank accounts were in one name and a passport in the other? I so wish we could see her UK Landing Card!


So many questions!!! Gahhhhhh! Anyone else have any thoughts on the above?

 

[ruby925]

I did a quick google on the flight numbers before I switched off last night (I didn't delve into anything historic) and it looks as though the QF flight is a Sydney - Brisbane flight where as the KLM flight was Sydney - Bangkok - Amsterdam.

Although, I didn't delve into anything historic.

Historically, the QF flight started SYD and terminated London (the other way via San Francisco), but not every day of the week.

 

[Pineconemind]

Historically, the QF flight started SYD and terminated London (the other way via San Francisco), but not every day of the week.

Ahh, ok thank you for this Ruby!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I feel like I've hit a bit of dead end with some of my searches. So I'm just going to think out loud for a lil second!


Some points that I can't get my head around:-


1. Marion telling people different versions of why she is going overseas and what she plans to do. Why? Why was she so secretive? Especially the picking up work or finding a school and maybe I'll move over permanently? You cant just move to the UK and start working as a teacher (without relevant visas etc etc), not even in 1997. Unless of course you were going down the direction of spousal visas etc / EU / European citizenship.


2. The Barclays Bank, if she knew she was going to change her name and her passport/ID, why did she not also change her bank accounts so she could access her money? And why wouldn't of Mr AKA picked up on this being the international man of fraud & forgery that he is. On one hand it makes me think the name change was such a last minute thing but such a silly one in retrospect to being able to access the cash, for either of them from the UK.


2. £20,000 pound is definietly not a small amount of money, but would it of been enough to last a year of travelling? I'm pretty sure M wasn't planning on budget/backpacking. £20,000 pound would work out to be around £109 a day over 6 months.

3. It's a big deal at any age going across the other side of the world as a "solo" female traveller. Especially for an unkown period of time. The fact she went to the airport alone via bus and took the route that she did just feels weird to me. And having to switch airports in Japan etc with all that luggage she had, if I remember correctly LL said she had 2 huge suitcases).

4. Arriving to the UK in 1997, surely she would of needed proof she had enough money to keep her afloat for her travel period (and a return ticket or ongoing ticket?), how did she prove this if her bank accounts were in one name and a passport in the other? I so wish we could see her UK Landing Card!


So many questions!!! Gahhhhhh! Anyone else have any thoughts on the above?

My response is that con men, whether politicians or RB, lie and change plans constantly to create chaos. This plays with people's minds. If Marion starts by being in love and enjoying the secrecy, it digresses into subjugation by chaos. Doing it all right and to please RB. So things start out making sense but quickly become confused as it gets harder and harder to keep stories straight. Marriage, a school of her own, coin business, Orient Express. Here in UK, there in UK, Amsterdam, Japan, Luxembourg.
Both GBB and JO told stories of this. It's Mind Control 101. For me, tthis explains why Marion's actions have been so hard to understand and pinpoint.

 

[Roseberry]

I agree there is something significant with Lille, because in the NAA files there is more than one piece of correspondence or telephone memo between Australian authorities asking for confirmation about whether there was a conviction (or served time...I will have to recheck) in Lille. It did strike me as odd that AC asked specifically about this and that RB vehemently denied this. I am also not sure of how it links to the MB inquest aims but it did seem important.

Suggest with his longtime links to Lille there’s a significant person, property and/or bank account he constantly returned to that they are trying to drill down on.

 

[LouLouSleuth]

Just wondering whether it was his original plan to fleece the real FNR somehow, using Marion with her new name. He realized late in the process that Marion had kept the name "Marion" in her new name and thereby scuppered the plan.

Having invested quite some time in this scam, he decided to fleece Marion instead, so as not to waste it all. Hence the handbrake turn back to Australia.

Not having thought it through from the beginning, there wasn't a clear exit strategy. Maybe this is why poor Marion is no longer with us.

Although not what he intended, he did make a cool $80k out of this turn of events. He had inadvertently found a new way to make sizeable amounts of money, and tried to repeat it with JO etc.

Doesn't help find Marion though.

Oh I’m sure he was going to fleece her too, but yes, I bet she wasn’t ‘supposed’ to leave Marion in the name, that makes a lot of sense

 

[brjakj]

I feel like I've hit a bit of dead end with some of my searches. So I'm just going to think out loud for a lil second!


Some points that I can't get my head around:-


1. Marion telling people different versions of why she is going overseas and what she plans to do. Why? Why was she so secretive? Especially the picking up work or finding a school and maybe I'll move over permanently? You cant just move to the UK and start working as a teacher (without relevant visas etc etc), not even in 1997. Unless of course you were going down the direction of spousal visas etc / EU / European citizenship.


2. The Barclays Bank, if she knew she was going to change her name and her passport/ID, why did she not also change her bank accounts so she could access her money? And why wouldn't of Mr AKA picked up on this being the international man of fraud & forgery that he is. On one hand it makes me think the name change was such a last minute thing but such a silly one in retrospect to being able to access the cash, for either of them from the UK.


2. £20,000 pound is definietly not a small amount of money, but would it of been enough to last a year of travelling? I'm pretty sure M wasn't planning on budget/backpacking. £20,000 pound would work out to be around £109 a day over 6 months.

3. It's a big deal at any age going across the other side of the world as a "solo" female traveller. Especially for an unkown period of time. The fact she went to the airport alone via bus and took the route that she did just feels weird to me. And having to switch airports in Japan etc with all that luggage she had, if I remember correctly LL said she had 2 huge suitcases).

4. Arriving to the UK in 1997, surely she would of needed proof she had enough money to keep her afloat for her travel period (and a return ticket or ongoing ticket?), how did she prove this if her bank accounts were in one name and a passport in the other? I so wish we could see her UK Landing Card!


So many questions!!! Gahhhhhh! Anyone else have any thoughts on the above?

UK had landing cards? I wonder if they have archives similar to NAA where they are stored? Would be great if we could access them!

 

[Pineconemind]

UK had landing cards? I wonder if they have archives similar to NAA where they are stored? Would be great if we could access them!

Yep they sure did! Pretty similar to the Aussie ones. I believe they were trying to scrap them in 2019. Can't seem to find any digitised records. I'm sure the authorities would have these records / info, but it would be great to see.

A UK landing card (or arrival card) has been issued to non-EEA travelers since 1971. The card records the purpose of the traveler's visit and the duration of their stay. It also records whether or not a traveler has brought items into the UK that warrant inspection by customs authorities.

 

[ruby925]

UK had landing cards? I wonder if they have archives similar to NAA where they are stored? Would be great if we could access them!

UK has now scrapped landing cards, but only in the last few years. Someone asked the Border Force on the website some questions using Freedom of Information Act about landing cards, retention etc. From the answers, it seems the max retention time of landing card info (however stored) is 15 years. Even if the rules were different in the 1990s (likely), I am guessing that historical records would have been destroyed in line with the current criteria.

 

[Roseberry]

I feel like I've hit a bit of dead end with some of my searches. So I'm just going to think out loud for a lil second!


Some points that I can't get my head around:-


1. Marion telling people different versions of why she is going overseas and what she plans to do. Why? Why was she so secretive? Especially the picking up work or finding a school and maybe I'll move over permanently? You cant just move to the UK and start working as a teacher (without relevant visas etc etc), not even in 1997. Unless of course you were going down the direction of spousal visas etc / EU / European citizenship.


2. The Barclays Bank, if she knew she was going to change her name and her passport/ID, why did she not also change her bank accounts so she could access her money? And why wouldn't of Mr AKA picked up on this being the international man of fraud & forgery that he is. On one hand it makes me think the name change was such a last minute thing but such a silly one in retrospect to being able to access the cash, for either of them from the UK.


2. £20,000 pound is definietly not a small amount of money, but would it of been enough to last a year of travelling? I'm pretty sure M wasn't planning on budget/backpacking. £20,000 pound would work out to be around £109 a day over 6 months.

3. It's a big deal at any age going across the other side of the world as a "solo" female traveller. Especially for an unkown period of time. The fact she went to the airport alone via bus and took the route that she did just feels weird to me. And having to switch airports in Japan etc with all that luggage she had, if I remember correctly LL said she had 2 huge suitcases).

4. Arriving to the UK in 1997, surely she would of needed proof she had enough money to keep her afloat for her travel period (and a return ticket or ongoing ticket?), how did she prove this if her bank accounts were in one name and a passport in the other? I so wish we could see her UK Landing Card!


So many questions!!! Gahhhhhh! Anyone else have any thoughts on the above?

There's couple of possible explanations here:

The bank accounts needed to remain MB's name so that he could sneak back to Aus with her stolen ID in that name to drain the accounts.

1. If RB Didn't know about the Barclays account:

MB knew that the Barclays account needed MB ID to access it in the UK - she would have taken some MB ID with her (birth cert etc). But RB takes all her documents other than passport for 'safekeeping'. He leaves MB in UK to go to urgent business in Belgium and in the same way as with JO she gets a call from him: he's been attacked at Amsterdam airport, all of the documents have been stolen he's in hospital. Tells MB to wait in UK. He meanwhile goes back to Aus to begin draining the accounts with the MB ID he has. (if she had changed the bank accounts to FNMR he would have needed to extract her passport in that name off her - harder to do). MB realises she now has no way of accessing her UK bank account - can't just phone up Sally or someone to ask her to get a new birth cert - it would invite too many questions. MB needs to quickly zip back to Aus to replace her MB ID, RB knowing nothing of the UK bank account and hasn't considered she'd have any reason to return and interrupt him. MB shows up in Aus, surprises him mid-activities. Suggest JO would possibly have met the same fate as MB if it wasn't for the witness locksmith being there. Suspect if RB had known about the account GBP 20K he would have found someway of extracting it over the years.

OR

2. RB did know about the Barclays account and the intention was to eventually get MB to drain her Aus funds to that account. But there's a hitch: the remaining MB ID she has on her won't suffice to transact on her UK account. Barclays want to see an MB passport at a minimum. The only way to access her funds is to briefly return to Aus, show up to the bank in person and withdraw the funds. At RB's suggestion, she withdraws as much cash as he suggests they can get away with transporting on their person through customs, the remainder via bank transfer (to? - still not sure of the details of this instrument). This still leaves the untouched 20K in UK though.