Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Roseberry]

As far as I know RB only had one form of FNR ID and that was a current Qld licence but who knows what additional 'forged' documents he may have carried for his scam.

Hard to forge a passport, easier to convince someone to change their name to your requirements for your own (pecuniary) advantage. Perhaps there was a need for an ID specifically with those initials and surname to access accounts set up in FNR here or abroad. (I’d be searching Remakel accounts Aus, but bear in mind his 1994 ad sought a French- speaking potential Mme. Remekel, which btw I don’t think MB answered) There’s no sentimentality involved on his part. The name change was directed by him and for a specific purpose, separate but additional to his operation on her funds.

 

[gymtonic]

Despite the apparent complexity of RB’s life, I find it hard to think of him as a criminal mastermind. He has spent a lot of time getting caught and the romance scam schemes we know about seem to have all failed to go to plan.

I see him more as a “useful idiot” - perhaps running errands for someone who is laundering money or trafficking drugs. The relatively small scale fleecing of women seems like a not-very-lucrative sideline associated with the main game.

If someone else was paying for the airfares, it explains how he could afford to travel so often. I don’t believe the JAL discount fares story. Perhaps he just travelled on the airline he was told to, so he genuinely didn’t know why the JAL routine was changed.

Due to personal experience I’ve done some research on malignant narcissists with grandiosity. RB seems to fit this profile. His unsettled childhood is a textbook set up for narcissism. Narcissists literally erase themselves and present different personalities to different people - mirroring their targets in order to gain their love. They are chameleons.

This would explain how RB manages to get women to follow him - at least for a while. Narcissists can be hugely beguiling and convincing because they will tell you you share all the same dreams, goals and values. They literally reflect all your best qualities back at you so you feel like you have met your soul-mate. But they can’t maintain the charade long term. They get bored and move on to the next conquest, adopting a new persona.

Narcissists are like vampires. They feed on attention - good or bad - and drama. I think RB’s motive is excitement and a sense of superiority - not primarily, money - and that he sees himself as a kind of James Bond character. That kind of person could be very useful to a criminal organisation - and completely disposable if something went wrong.

Narcissists lie about every single thing - even things that don’t matter - even when there is concrete evidence they’re lying. That meshes with RB’s courtroom performance.

And many have a virgin/ complex about women, so they will see most women as “” but some - eg DdH and Monique - as “virgins” - treated as either a mother figure or as an idol to be worshipped.

It fits the profile to have a compliant woman at home, a woman you idolise, and then a shifting harem of women you despise.

Just some thoughts.

EXACTLY! (see some of my more recent posts). IMO It's one of my alternative theories that I am following that he was in his earlier years a small bit player for a larger organised crime ring (drawn in and based on his escalating petty crime ending in drugs record). This would explain the aliases and travel and provided him with contacts. Next phase (when too old for that life) and lack of legitimate career would have used what he knew from a life of forgery, to develop new scams (maybe even still playing small bit parts when opportunities intersected?).

"Little grey cells" as Poirot used to say...considering the psychology of the person and MO - your summing up is excellent!

 

[BonnieB]

Despite the apparent complexity of RB’s life, I find it hard to think of him as a criminal mastermind. He has spent a lot of time getting caught and the romance scam schemes we know about seem to have all failed to go to plan.

I see him more as a “useful idiot” - perhaps running errands for someone who is laundering money or trafficking drugs. The relatively small scale fleecing of women seems like a not-very-lucrative sideline associated with the main game.

If someone else was paying for the airfares, it explains how he could afford to travel so often. I don’t believe the JAL discount fares story. Perhaps he just travelled on the airline he was told to, so he genuinely didn’t know why the JAL routine was changed.

Due to personal experience I’ve done some research on malignant narcissists with grandiosity. RB seems to fit this profile. His unsettled childhood is a textbook set up for narcissism. Narcissists literally erase themselves and present different personalities to different people - mirroring their targets in order to gain their love. They are chameleons.

This would explain how RB manages to get women to follow him - at least for a while. Narcissists can be hugely beguiling and convincing because they will tell you you share all the same dreams, goals and values. They literally reflect all your best qualities back at you so you feel like you have met your soul-mate. But they can’t maintain the charade long term. They get bored and move on to the next conquest, adopting a new persona.

Narcissists are like vampires. They feed on attention - good or bad - and drama. I think RB’s motive is excitement and a sense of superiority - not primarily, money - and that he sees himself as a kind of James Bond character. That kind of person could be very useful to a criminal organisation - and completely disposable if something went wrong.

Narcissists lie about every single thing - even things that don’t matter - even when there is concrete evidence they’re lying. That meshes with RB’s courtroom performance.

And many have a virgin/ complex about women, so they will see most women as “” but some - eg DdH and Monique - as “virgins” - treated as either a mother figure or as an idol to be worshipped.

It fits the profile to have a compliant woman at home, a woman you idolise, and then a shifting harem of women you despise.

Just some thoughts.

Absolutely AGREE!

 

[othervee]

December 10, 1994: Marion is now 49yo and will be 50yo in October, 1995 so was she keen to meet someone special before she turned 50yo?

I'm pretty sure that one of the sisters or Marion's friend mentioned in the earlier (non-streamed) part of the inquest that she thought 50 was her last chance to find a man and after 50 it would be too late.

This is something few people want to talk about but I think it's also an important factor that at around this time Marion was very close to the onset of menopause, which comes with a whole lot of baggage and stigma (and can also come with some nasty physical and emotional symptoms). Average age of menopause in Australia is 51. As well, Sally was in the throes of wedding planning at the time Marion disappeared. Marion had three failed marriages behind her and was beginning to think it was too late, and Sally's wedding could been an additional stressor as it reminded her of that. Please don't read this as blaming Sally, as I absolutely am not doing that!! But I think it could definitely have made Marion more emotionally vulnerable.

 

[gymtonic]

Despite the apparent complexity of RB’s life, I find it hard to think of him as a criminal mastermind. He has spent a lot of time getting caught and the romance scam schemes we know about seem to have all failed to go to plan.

I see him more as a “useful idiot” - perhaps running errands for someone who is laundering money or trafficking drugs. The relatively small scale fleecing of women seems like a not-very-lucrative sideline associated with the main game.

If someone else was paying for the airfares, it explains how he could afford to travel so often. I don’t believe the JAL discount fares story. Perhaps he just travelled on the airline he was told to, so he genuinely didn’t know why the JAL routine was changed.

Due to personal experience I’ve done some research on malignant narcissists with grandiosity. RB seems to fit this profile. His unsettled childhood is a textbook set up for narcissism. Narcissists literally erase themselves and present different personalities to different people - mirroring their targets in order to gain their love. They are chameleons.

This would explain how RB manages to get women to follow him - at least for a while. Narcissists can be hugely beguiling and convincing because they will tell you you share all the same dreams, goals and values. They literally reflect all your best qualities back at you so you feel like you have met your soul-mate. But they can’t maintain the charade long term. They get bored and move on to the next conquest, adopting a new persona.

Narcissists are like vampires. They feed on attention - good or bad - and drama. I think RB’s motive is excitement and a sense of superiority - not primarily, money - and that he sees himself as a kind of James Bond character. That kind of person could be very useful to a criminal organisation - and completely disposable if something went wrong.

Narcissists lie about every single thing - even things that don’t matter - even when there is concrete evidence they’re lying. That meshes with RB’s courtroom performance.

And many have a virgin/ complex about women, so they will see most women as “” but some - eg DdH and Monique - as “virgins” - treated as either a mother figure or as an idol to be worshipped.

It fits the profile to have a compliant woman at home, a woman you idolise, and then a shifting harem of women you despise.

Just some thoughts.

EXACTLY! (see some of my more recent posts). IMO It's one of my alternative theories that I am following that he was in his earlier years a small bit player for a larger organised crime ring (drawn in and based on his escalating petty crime ending in drugs record). This would explain the aliases and travel and provided him with contacts. Next phase (when too old for that life) and lack of legitimate career would have used what he knew from a life of forgery, to develop new scams (maybe even still playing small bit parts when opportunities intersected?).

"Little grey cells" as Poirot used to say...considering the psychology of the person and MO - your summing up is excellent! IMO MOO

 

[Estelle]

@Ruby@2065 If the DL was renewed in 1992, it would have expired in 1997 on the DOB of the person applying for the DL (ie FNR DOB). this is what happens in Queensland.

So can we assume that if it was renewed 2/10/1992 and expired 2/12/1997, that the date of Birth he used was partly 2nd October or 2nd December? What is FNR DOB? I'm confused by this.

 

[mishy66]

That was my take on the STOP card too.
A couple of points “of interest” I noted in relation to the 1976 name change/ Deed Poll form (i.e. IMO interpretation only), was that:

On his signature block for the new name he starts to write Frederick W, and then writes David over the top of the W. He also indicates on that form that he was also previously known as Frederick de Hedevary and WW. IMO suggesting that he was using a FdH alias and formally applying for a name change from WW to FDdH.

There are some really subtle clues in these forms and perhaps (IMO) that was what AC was referring to…that he seemed to have been using an alias of FdH prior to his offical name change to FDdH??
IMO MOO

Oh wow he does too!! Great spotting on that!

 

[chinguetti]

@BonnieB I think you've nailed it. Part 3 is what happened next.
My theory is they go to some temporary accommodation in Byron Bay where they won't be recognised and he convinces her the best way to access the $ is incremental withdrawal and he'll store in safe custody for her and transfer altogether to an account in her new name. She had indicated on her incoming passenger card a duration stay of 8 days, which is til 10 Aug. She has no transport so is reliant on him. Staying in Byron Bay makes sense as she can access banks. He then buys a car and on 11 August he takes her somewhere remote to stay away from their home areas. The car is used to travel into Byron Bay and other areas to continue making withdrawals until the accounts are drained.

I think this is likely. He bought the car because he needed time to ferry Marion around while she drained her account.

1997-08-02 MB Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that Marion is married. Name changed to Remakel.
1997-08-11 Purchase of 2nd hand white Mitsubishi magna PVC 096 by RB
***MB probably stayed in Brisbane until RB bought a car to finish his scam. He needed to ferry her around and make sure she was isolated from family and friends
1997-08 to 1997-09 MB account drained daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.
1997-09-13 MBs Medicare card used for visit to Optometrist in Grafton
***During this time they were probably around Grafton, close to RBs home in Ballina but far enough away to avoid bumping into people he knew. He was pressuring MB to withdraw the final balance but she was uncomfortable to carry so much cash
1997-10-14 new safety deposit box opened at CBA
1997-10-15 MBs large and final withdrawal from bank
***RB finally convinces Marion to withdraw the final 80k. He opens a safety deposit box with her and gives her the key. He says the money is still in the bank so its safe.
1997-10-18 MBs son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally
***RB kills MB between Oct 15 and Oct 18
1997-10-22 MBs daughter Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account.
1997-10-27 new safety deposit box closed at CBA
1997-11-30 RB sold Mitsubishi magna
***RB no longer needs the safety deposit box or car, so he gets rid of them. He thinks he got away with murder until 25 years later he gets a call from the police. Initially he denies knowing MB, the next day he changes the story again. He has been lying ever since.

 

[gymtonic]

So can we assume that if it was renewed 2/10/1992 and expired 2/12/1997, that the date of Birth he used was partly 2nd October or 2nd December? What is FNR DOB? I'm confused by this.

My QLD DL experience indicates that the renewal on 2/10/1992 doesn't necessarily give the birthdate as you can renew prior to its expiry and that date will be on the DL as the renewal date. But the expiry date should give you the DOB used. So if 2/12/1997 is the expiry date of the DL then 2 December is the birthday.

[so my current QLD DL shows that it was renewed before the expiry date of the last licence but the expiry date of my DL shows that it will expiry on my birthday 5 years from its renewal]

 

[Roseberry]

IMO - Like with JO, RB took off to Europe with all MB's personal paperwork so she was not in possession of these documents to access her money at Barclays. This could be when MB discovered all was not kosher.

I suspect this is really, really very important looking at his MO of progressively stripping away the women he targets: Assets liquidated, documents taken - then ‘lost’ (same mugging scenario for MB and JO?)luggage progressively ‘stored’ and stripped back (I think luggage is another issue btw) until they’re left stranded in a foreign country with no funds and no documents (but hey, here’s a number for a ‘travel agent’ I know…) And if they return to Aus bereft and investigate? I don’t think there’s any plan for them to return. One way ticket for JO? I think the ‘travel agent’ she was advised to contact ‘re-routes’…. Returning to Aus would only invite investigation. If that’s the case he’s definitely not acting as a ‘lone wolf’ and if that was MB’s scenario it was ultimately successful but further refined for JO to eliminate the need for that outcome.
I want to know where Marion is.

 

[mishy66]

I think this is likely. He bought the car because he needed time to ferry Marion around while she drained her account.

1997-08-02 MB Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that Marion is married. Name changed to Remakel.
1997-08-11 Purchase of 2nd hand white Mitsubishi magna PVC 096 by RB
***MB probably stayed in Brisbane until RB bought a car to finish his scam. He needed to ferry her around and make sure she was isolated from family and friends
1997-08 to 1997-09 MB account drained daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.
1997-09-13 MBs Medicare card used for visit to Optometrist in Grafton
***During this time they were probably around Grafton, close to RBs home in Ballina but far enough away to avoid bumping into people he knew. He was pressuring MB to withdraw the final balance but she was uncomfortable to carry so much cash
1997-10-14 new safety deposit box opened at CBA
1997-10-15 MBs large and final withdrawal from bank
***RB finally convinces Marion to withdraw the final 80k. He opens a safety deposit box with her and gives her the key. He says the money is still in the bank so its safe.
1997-10-18 MBs son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally
***RB kills MB between Oct 15 and Oct 18
1997-10-22 MBs daughter Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account.
1997-10-27 new safety deposit box closed at CBA
1997-11-30 RB sold Mitsubishi magna
***RB no longer needs the safety deposit box or car, so he gets rid of them. He thinks he got away with murder until 25 years later he gets a call from the police. Initially he denies knowing MB, the next day he changes the story again. He has been lying ever since.

WOW.
This makes complete sense - all those dates and activities carry weight that it was his game plan !
It is a perfect summary of what could have happened and makes it very logical in why it was MB withdrew money back here, him buying a car for 3 months and opening & closing of the safety deposit box within 13 days. And more importantly WHY MB missed her sons birthday!
I am with you on this theory. Great timeline of events!

 

[baz-wj]

1997-11-30 RB sold Mitsubishi magna
***RB no longer needs the safety deposit box or car, so he gets rid of them. He thinks he got away with murder until 25 years later he gets a call from the police. Initially he denies knowing MB, the next day he changes the story again. He has been lying ever since.

Or sold the car because he used it to transport MB's body somewhere remote and needed to remove the trace evidence.

 

[BabeBlues]

My QLD DL experience indicates that the renewal on 2/10/1992 doesn't necessarily give the birthdate as you can renew prior to its expiry and that date will be on the DL as the renewal date. But the expiry date should give you the DOB used. So if 2/12/1997 is the expiry date of the DL then 2 December is the birthday.

[so my current QLD DL shows that it was renewed before the expiry date of the last licence but the expiry date of my DL shows that it will expiry on my birthday 5 years from its renewal]

Adding here that the real FNR in LUX birthday is 12 December, born 1947. He would have been 2 days shy of 47 when the ad was placed by RB in LeC on 19 Jan 1994 saying he was 47. IMO there is no way RB can deny he was trying to impersonate the real FNR @Estelle
Fernand Remakel (Player) | National Football Teams (national-football-teams.com)
edited to add further comment

 

[centred]

It seems most seem to be on the same page about MB returning .

So can anyone clarify about those withdrawals from Byron it is said $5000 a day for a period of weeks and at least 3 from the bank close to home in QLD .

I think i recall they didn't actually have records of these but had definite information it was a fact .Is this near enough correct ?
High interest account with max withdrawal per day ?

if so I am assuming these were from the same account , is this correct ?

The other $80,000 was a separate amount withdrawn from her other account . Is this correct ?
And it was reported this was not a transfer but "cash " Is this correct ? And this account was in the same bank but at the more local branch she normally banked at in QLD ...?

and it was reported this last transaction occur ed after all the others ..is this correct ?

 

[centred]

sorry dble post

 

[centred]

Sorry i have seen posts with some of my answers from @chinguetti

1997-08 to 1997-09 MB account drained daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.

I have a problem with these incremental withdrawal amounts . if it was me i would have arranged with my bank to transfer to my other account and then withdraw , or to account that i can access as a lump sum , i wouldn't want to be skipping around going to MY bank every day getting it in dribs and drabs IMO

1997-10-14 new safety deposit box opened at CBA

1997-10-15 MBs large and final withdrawal from bank


1997-10-27 new safety deposit box closed at CBA

 

[gymtonic]

Adding here that the real FNR in LUX birthday is 12 December, born 1947. He would have been 2 days shy of 47 when the ad was placed by RB in LeC on 19 Jan 1994 saying he was 47. IMO there is no way RB can deny he was trying to impersonate the real FNR @Estelle
Fernand Remakel (Player) | National Football Teams (national-football-teams.com)
edited to add further comment

Great sleuthing! but I think we can settle on the expiry date of the QLD DL in the name FNR expiring on 2 December 1997, because I think that fabulous link you found is written in a different date format [YYYY- MM-DD or 1947-12-02] being 2 December 1947?? Can someone else check my reasoning?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I think this is likely. He bought the car because he needed time to ferry Marion around while she drained her account.

1997-08-02 MB Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that Marion is married. Name changed to Remakel.
1997-08-11 Purchase of 2nd hand white Mitsubishi magna PVC 096 by RB
***MB probably stayed in Brisbane until RB bought a car to finish his scam. He needed to ferry her around and make sure she was isolated from family and friends
1997-08 to 1997-09 MB account drained daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.
1997-09-13 MBs Medicare card used for visit to Optometrist in Grafton
***During this time they were probably around Grafton, close to RBs home in Ballina but far enough away to avoid bumping into people he knew. He was pressuring MB to withdraw the final balance but she was uncomfortable to carry so much cash
1997-10-14 new safety deposit box opened at CBA
1997-10-15 MBs large and final withdrawal from bank
***RB finally convinces Marion to withdraw the final 80k. He opens a safety deposit box with her and gives her the key. He says the money is still in the bank so its safe.
1997-10-18 MBs son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally
***RB kills MB between Oct 15 and Oct 18
1997-10-22 MBs daughter Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account.
1997-10-27 new safety deposit box closed at CBA
1997-11-30 RB sold Mitsubishi magna
***RB no longer needs the safety deposit box or car, so he gets rid of them. He thinks he got away with murder until 25 years later he gets a call from the police. Initially he denies knowing MB, the next day he changes the story again. He has been lying ever since.

nice work

The only thing that is throwing me is the bank IDing Marion and stating she doesn't not want her family to know where she is .. that statement indicates she knows her family is looking for her and therefore the contact by the bank to Marion, triggered by the police enquiry, would have been made after the 22/10

Of course there could be crossed wires in that statement but the lady giving evidence was quite convincing

 

[centred]

Sorry i have seen posts with some of my answers from @chinguetti

1997-08 to 1997-09 MB account drained daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.

I have a problem with these incremental withdrawal amounts . if it was me i would have arranged with my bank to transfer to my other account and then withdraw , or to account that i can access as a lump sum , i wouldn't want to be skipping around going to MY bank every day getting it in dribs and drabs IMO

1997-10-14 new safety deposit box opened at CBA

This safety deposit box was opened in October 14th and the $5000 withdrawals are being withdrawn since the first weeks in August so 2 months at least .

Why wait so long to open this box ?

1997-10-14 new safety deposit box opened at CBA

1997-10-15 MBs large and final withdrawal from bank

If all the "cash "
is in this box , why did he wait another 2 weeks to close the box ?


1997-10-27 new safety deposit box closed at CBA

i guess what i am getting at , as i have often wondered if he did actually get his mits on the last $80000 and that it was Marion who withdrew this after realizing she would not be going to live this life overseas after more than 2 months being back in Australia ,

Upset , outraged , miserable , shamed and embarrassed she cut her losses , withdrew what she had left and left for good , eventually changing her name again to Natalia "someone ' eventually or met someone else , married again or just stayed single ...There was that message " Natalia is still alive but you will never see her again , she didn't leave because she wanted too but she was forced to do so ...Forced does not mean someone forced her , it can mean she felt like she had no choice ...

This is some thing i have been thinking since i first heard the podcast and nothing so far has me changing my scenario because i do not believe he murdered her or anyone else did for that matter

IMO

I just needed to get this out there for now

 

[Littleguy7]

I came across these change of names on the NSW Land Registry Services website.

There is a registered Power of Attorney for Marion Ann Barter from 6/2000 which I think is a different MB.