Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[TootsieFootsie]

Marion's birth name was Wilson.

 

[Roseberry]

Marion's birth name was Wilson.

Thanks. I knew I'd heard it somewhere. There's lots of Walkers (of course) but several Lances too.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Yes that really is interesting. Extra expense, very out of character. He's either avoiding someone he knows or something or it's not taking him where he really wants to be. And you didn't need a passport for any ferry at the time, and they were pretty much all the same in terms of security, and cameras etc? And both terminated in the exact same location and he could onward to the same destinations from there? Sorry one last question for the expert! - what was his usual ferry route in and out again? What's your take on it?

At the time he could have sailed from Ramsgate (Kent) to Ostend or from Dover (Kent) to Zeebrugge. Both would have sailed directly into Belgium making it easier to go visit that ‘accountant’ and family to sponge some more money if you believe any of that. Of course he needed those suitcases stored at Amsterdam but he could have done that on the return flight to Oz after going to Belgium first. So why Harwich in Essex?

 

[Roseberry]

B

At the time he could have sailed from Ramsgate (Kent) to Ostend or from Dover (Kent) to Zeebrugge. Both would have sailed directly into Belgium making it easier to go visit that ‘accountant’ and family to sponge some more money if you believe any of that. Of course he needed those suitcases stored at Amsterdam but he could have done that on the return flight to Oz after going to Belgium first. So why Harwich in Essex?

Because he's not interested in Belgium this trip. He's going straight to Amsterdam the fastest way possible, collecting the suitcases, heading straight back to Oz to do his thing before JO suspects. Time pressure?

 

[Meligator]

I’ve always suspected she didn’t fly into Heathrow, although I hate to accuse her of lying. When JO traveled she had no clear itinerary and I’d guess same true to Marion (although she couldn’t exactly tell her family she wasn’t 100% clear where she would be). Her travel cards are labeled Europe, then crossed out replaced with S Korea. If RB said take this flight to S Korea, then meet me at Narita…she may not really have known where they were going next. Her real travel may have more closely mirrored JO, but she just wrote Heathrow b/c that was where her family had expected her to go.

 

[Roseberry]

Hmm that's interesting. Thanks for that.

IK - Myocardial ischaemia. In a 36 year old woman. That's really bad luck. A heart attack is still a long way from a car accident. Maybe she was in the car when the heart attack happened and that's what caused the accident or maybe it was an accident in a car. There's a grain of truth there, then.
Another interesting cause for myocardial ischaemia is related to drug use:
Drug-induced myocardial ischemia and acute myocardial infarction - PubMed.
Still searching back for the PM report a few threads back to see if it mentions evidence of arthersclerosis, which would rule that out. From memory though it was pretty basic and brief.
Just putting it out there, maybe for later.

 

[ruby925]

I’ve always suspected she didn’t fly into Heathrow, although I hate to accuse her of lying. When JO traveled she had no clear itinerary and I’d guess same true to Marion (although she couldn’t exactly tell her family she wasn’t 100% clear where she would be). Her travel cards are labeled Europe, then crossed out replaced with S Korea. If RB said take this flight to S Korea, then meet me at Narita…she may not really have known where they were going next. Her real travel may have more closely mirrored JO, but she just wrote Heathrow b/c that was where her family had expected her to go.

Do we know of any occasion when RB flew with anyone else other than DDH? I don't think he would have wanted to fly with MB from Narita if his passport was in the name of RW at that time, so I imagine they would have met up in UK or possibly Amsterdam (where he may have gone on the 'under the radar' Harwich ferry). all MOO obvs.

 

[Meligator]

Do we know of any occasion when RB flew with anyone else other than DDH? I don't think he would have wanted to fly with MB from Narita if his passport was in the name of RW at that time, so I imagine they would have met up in UK or possibly Amsterdam (where he may have gone on the 'under the radar' Harwich ferry). all MOO obvs.

I think he flew with JO

 

[Roseberry]

Do we know of any occasion when RB flew with anyone else other than DDH? I don't think he would have wanted to fly with MB from Narita if his passport was in the name of RW at that time, so I imagine they would have met up in UK or possibly Amsterdam (where he may have gone on the 'under the radar' Harwich ferry). all MOO obvs.

We can be fairly sure of a few things:

-If MB had gone to Japan, it would only be because that was the cheapest route. He doesn't care about the inconvenience of bags and trains and multi-stops- if he's paying he always picks the very cheapest way. There's no need for meet-ups until her final destination and where she places her luggage. In fact, we've seen he avoids being seen with them at all unless they have to be shepherded, as in the case of JO. And even then he wouldn't chance being seen out with JO by going anywhere other than the airport or train, even in a place like Bangkok.
-He would've avoided meeting up with MB in Japan - where he travelled often, would've been known and could have been recognised, and because he was travelling on the RW passport, with the danger of MB seeing it.
-Best evidence: MB probably did go to Japan, she wrote a letter on the transit hotel notepaper; it's possible but unlikely RB souvenired something so identifiable, and I don't think MB would've spent any time with him subsequently to take it from him and use it.
BUT
-There's been a major, major upset in Japan at around this time, which has meant he has never been able to return. It could be related to some side-hustles going awry, but it may just be he chanced being there at the same time and was rumbled by being recognised or in some way MB has unwittingly rumbled him to airport staff whilst there alone where surnames didn't match up.

 

[Meligator]

RB & JO did go to Bali before Amsterdam (I think Amsterdam was their next stop). Why? Definitely not for vacation. Are Bali/Japan places he hides assets? Sells documents? Place for new scams? There must be a reason.

 

[Roseberry]

RB & JO did go to Bali before Amsterdam (I think Amsterdam was their next stop). Why? Definitely not for vacation. Are Bali/Japan places he hides assets? Sells documents? Place for new scams? There must be a reason.

In order of likelihood:
1. It was the cheapest way
2.For business, as you say above
.
.
.
.
47.JO really wanted to go there and he agreed to it.

But that is interesting. He seems to be a total creature of habit and follows the same routes to the same places to the same countries - he has well-travelled rat-runs. Wonder if he's been there before.

Oh, and after the Narita disaster with MB in '97, he couldn't fly JAL anymore or through Narita. Didn't Mr C ask if he flew Garuda and he confirmed it?

 

[ruby925]

In order of likelihood:
1. It was the cheapest way
2.For business, as you say above
.
.
.
.
47.JO really wanted to go there and he agreed to it.

Maybe it was the simplest answer, cheapest tickets. I don't know about JAL or Korean, but airlines like Garuda and Emirates had bargain tickets in the nineties, sold through agents/brokers. A friend of mine had a contact who obtained tickets for him from Asia, so cheap he could afford business class...

 

[MrsWattle]

RB & JO did go to Bali before Amsterdam (I think Amsterdam was their next stop). Why? Definitely not for vacation. Are Bali/Japan places he hides assets? Sells documents? Place for new scams? There must be a reason.

Yes I agree.
Hidden assets in Bali would be a possibility. Bali is a place where his children get married and probably go regularly, being such a rapidly growing hotspot with luxurious villas and international businesses. To buy a property in Bali you need to either have a business or "borrow" a locals name through a "Notaris" local lawyer. BALI needs to be on the radar for a place they would funnel funds. IMO

 

[BabeBlues]

I think you’ve been reading my mind lol. I’ve been looking at accommodation around Nymboida village for quite a while now. 25 years ago, it could have been very different though. RB did proclaim at the Inquest he had never heard of Nymboida and has no knowledge of where it is. He was a bit too defensive about that question IMO

This is probably unrelated but there is an Armidale Rd near Nymboida. The tip off that said she was in Armidale?? @BonnieB @LEO123 2917 Armidale Road, Blaxlands Creek, NSW 2460 - Livestock for Sale - realestate.com.au this is only 12kms from Nymboida.

 

[ChrysStevenson]

RB & JO did go to Bali before Amsterdam (I think Amsterdam was their next stop). Why? Definitely not for vacation. Are Bali/Japan places he hides assets? Sells documents? Place for new scams? There must be a reason.

I just listened again to some of JO’s testimony on 4 Feb.

They went to Bali and did nothing touristy. However they took a cab to a slum area then back to their hotel.

When they got to Amsterdam, RB supplied JO with a bag for some of her clothes. It’s a little unclear, but I think this was a bag for her summer clothes. She mentions just one outfit and a pair of shoes - hardly worth storing as there would have been no weight to them.

It couldn’t have been this bag she used to go to the UK, because I checked the Amsterdam temperatures for December 1999, and they range between 0°C and 10°C.
Amsterdam Fall 1999 Historical Weather Data (Netherlands) - Weather Spark

In Britain at the same time the temperature was around 2°C.

London, United Kingdom Weather History | Weather Underground

There is no way she would have left her warm clothes behind in those kinds of temperatures.

So a token amount of women’s clothes were left in a locker in Amsterdam in a bag RB supplied after they had flown in from Bali.

It makes me wonder if summer clothes were the only thing removed from JO’s bag and placed into another bag belonging to RB after they cleared customs. And why did RB, who liked to travel light, happen to have an extra bag? And is there some reason why it might have been important for that bag of RB’s to look like it belonged to JO should any questions be raised about it?

And then, of course, as we know, after depositing JO and her winter clothes in the UK, he scurried back to Amsterdam. Did he find he had a particular use for a bag containing JO’s summer clothes and whatever other souvenirs from Bali the bag might contain?

It does make you wonder.

 

[BonnieB]

IK - Myocardial ischaemia. In a 36 year old woman. That's really bad luck. A heart attack is still a long way from a car accident. Maybe she was in the car when the heart attack happened and that's what caused the accident or maybe it was an accident in a car. There's a grain of truth there, then.
Another interesting cause for myocardial ischaemia is related to drug use:
Drug-induced myocardial ischemia and acute myocardial infarction - PubMed.
Still searching back for the PM report a few threads back to see if it mentions evidence of arthersclerosis, which would rule that out. From memory though it was pretty basic and brief.
Just putting it out there, maybe for later.

IK died in a stationary car in St. Kilda, Melbourne. The Coroner determined she died of Myocardial ischaemia (heart attack) He released the body for burial without autopsy. She was 31 yrs old

 

[Roseberry]

Yes I agree.
Hidden assets in Bali would be a possibility. Bali is a place where his children get married and probably go regularly, being such a rapidly growing hotspot with luxurious villas and international businesses. To buy a property in Bali you need to either have a business or "borrow" a locals name through a "Notaris" local lawyer. BALI needs to be on the radar for a place they would funnel funds. IMO

Yes, that's right they did too. "Borrowing" a name is the business he's in, so no problem there.

There was discussion a while back about how in spite of all the $ that must've passed through his hands very little of it seemed to stick and he had little to show for it - and if he wasn't going to do that at his age, what's the point of it all? It was suggested then that maybe, given the history of abandonment and identity issues, etc, that the intention was to ensure that didn't happen to subsequent generations. If that's the case, Bali really would be good place to start.

On the same note, it's interesting that the coin from the Coppernolle collection offered for sale is by the grandchild of MC, not the child.
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

 

[Roseberry]

IK died in a stationary car in St. Kilda, Melbourne. The Coroner determined she died of Myocardial ischaemia (heart attack) He released the body for burial without autopsy. She was 31 yrs old

Oh. Well that's not good.......

 

[StarrChance]

IK died in a stationary car in St. Kilda, Melbourne. The Coroner determined she died of Myocardial ischaemia (heart attack) He released the body for burial without autopsy. She was 31 yrs old

Where did you find that information?

 

[BonnieB]

I just listened again to some of JO’s testimony on 4 Feb.

They went to Bali and did nothing touristy. However they took a cab to a slum area then back to their hotel.

When they got to Amsterdam, RB supplied JO with a bag for some of her clothes. It’s a little unclear, but I think this was a bag for her summer clothes. She mentions just one outfit and a pair of shoes - hardly worth storing as there would have been no weight to them.

It couldn’t have been this bag she used to go to the UK, because I checked the Amsterdam temperatures for December 1999, and they range between 0°C and 10°C.
Amsterdam Fall 1999 Historical Weather Data (Netherlands) - Weather Spark

In Britain at the same time the temperature was around 2°C.

London, United Kingdom Weather History | Weather Underground

There is no way she would have left her warm clothes behind in those kinds of temperatures.

So a token amount of women’s clothes were left in a locker in Amsterdam in a bag RB supplied after they had flown in from Bali.

It makes me wonder if summer clothes were the only thing removed from JO’s bag and placed into another bag belonging to RB after they cleared customs. And why did RB, who liked to travel light, happen to have an extra bag? And is there some reason why it might have been important for that bag of RB’s to look like it belonged to JO should any questions be raised about it?

And then, of course, as we know, after depositing JO and her winter clothes in the UK, he scurried back to Amsterdam. Did he find he had a particular use for a bag containing JO’s summer clothes and whatever other souvenirs from Bali the bag might contain?

It does make you wonder.

I believe, and correct me if I'm mistaken, RB supplied the extra bag for JO's winter clothes to be taken with her. At the inquest AC asked JO if her original bag, the one left in Amsterdam, was locked to which she replied "Oh yes, it had three locks on it". JO never bothered to retrieve this bag as it contained nothing of importance.
The whole bag 'thing' never made much sense to me at all. He had already taken possession of her documents which from memory, he kept in a small case with his initials R.L.W on it. If his testimony is to be believed, all he took with him was a small toiletry bag which leaves the document case and his silver suitcase in the Amsterdam locker with JO's suitcase.
If one of the bags contained something illegal, it wouldn't take a Sherlock Holmes to trace it back to him via JO so it can't be for that.
There IS a reason, I just can't figure it out yet!