Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I see the MS Shota Rustaveli that the Ws travelled on in 1970 was an East German built ship (in 1968) for the Soviet Black Sea fleet. It seems weird to think of Soviet cruise liners taking non Eastern Europeans from Australia to Europe. It only had a maximum 700 passengers so I should think after months of travelling you would know everyone including the KGB operatives on-board too. I see from some message boards that it wasn't unusual for crew members to go missing!

 

[Pineconemind]

Thanks @Liselle
I have it in my notes but I guess I just don't believe anything he says until proven otherwise.

He is working as a waiter? kitchenhand? in a cafe? when he sets up a 'business' the year prior in 1969 for 'publications/publishing company' and then moves to Aust to work in a cafe where the owners of said cafe state they are "company director, secretary, stenographer' on their passenger cards in 1970

And he happens upon a person having a cuppa at the W cafe, who is working at Le Courier Aust, a company that suits his needs...? Handy.

That cafe must have been a pretty well patronised establishment for the family to own so much property around an exclusive part of Sydney. IMO

I personally think that the W family had the connection to Le Courier Aust and that the father met WDW through some business dealings. IMO

Yep, this little cafe story doesn't sit right or at least it's not the Walkers IMO. I thought the same, they lived in a pretty wealthy area, so the cafe must of been making a very good turn over. I've searched high & low for any info on a cafe connected to both DedH parents and found nothing, not even a little crumb? Has anyone else found anything?

 

[BonnieB]

Yep, this little cafe story doesn't sit right or at least it's not the Walkers IMO. I thought the same, they lived in a pretty wealthy area, so the cafe must of been making a very good turn over. I've searched high & low for any info on a cafe connected to both DedH parents and found nothing, not even a little crumb? Has anyone else found anything?

Just a few Electoral entries:
1949 Bellevue Hill
1958 Bondi
1958 Vaucluse
1980 Rose Bay
1980 Croydon

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yep, this little cafe story doesn't sit right or at least it's not the Walkers IMO. I thought the same, they lived in a pretty wealthy area, so the cafe must of been making a very good turn over. I've searched high & low for any info on a cafe connected to both DedH parents and found nothing, not even a little crumb? Has anyone else found anything?

H'mm, Pineconemind, the cafe. It seems the coffee lounge was at the entrance to Market Street - I'm not sure which entrance! Mr B used to buy Le Courrier from the newspaper stand on the corner of Pitt and Market Street. Le Courrier was in Kent Street in the '70s and Castlereagh Street later on, so nearby to coffee lounge. If anyone can get their hands on an old Sydney Yellow Pages or old photograph from around 1976, might be able to get the name of it. I'm still looking, but in Victoria.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

My question about Walker family 1970 One year UK visit and 1971 Chusan voyage.
Where was was their other daughter? and who looked after the Cafe?

They probably didn't own the cafe then, maybe started running it after their return from the UK. Speculation.

 

[Bibno]

Yep, this little cafe story doesn't sit right or at least it's not the Walkers IMO. I thought the same, they lived in a pretty wealthy area, so the cafe must of been making a very good turn over. I've searched high & low for any info on a cafe connected to both DedH parents and found nothing, not even a little crumb? Has anyone else found anything?

Maybe they did have a cafe, but had other business interests as well.

Maybe Mr W. Owned the cafe, but didn’t work there and had a manager and staff to run it.

 

[centred]

lol...knew it was Hungarian, of course it's Jewish! Desperately seeking where that dH name has come from!
He says at inquest (0:31) that his father's first two Christian names are Desire and David and that his surname is Hedervary - 'at least that's what I was told when I entered the orphanage'. I can't find any connection, except to the Count, and it's not like him to talk himself up.

Yes this person has been touched on a few times.
I think @centred found some more interesting links.


I came to the conclusion that no he wouldn't be standing under her umbrella as her profile is too highly linked to the UN and very well known.

He may very well believe in his own deluded mind she is his 'aunt' though.

Hello , just popping in , re De Hedervary .

When he says the christian names Desire and David as christian names .....as we see he is named as Desire John Pierre David ? , The name David as a surname i researched as meaning of the house of David which is not really a name as such , it has a significant meaning re Jewish connection in history .

So i am under the impression his surname is incomplete or reworked so to speak ,
So it maybe possible he was De Hedevary as in Hedevary from as in the De ,the area Hedevary , I can re post that info of Hedevary location and history at a later time but it is easily found on google search re the blood line story if any one wants to verify right now .

So the only option left to research i guess would be to consider Desire JP David as related to Hedevary family tree somehow ,

If this makes sense it is just a suggestion or i could be barking up the wrong " tree' Of course

 

[Liselle]

For a rather random link.....https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...n/news-story/527dcefad0823a9a449d215b15d20196

The walkers travelled to Southampton on the MS Shota Rustaveli, when I searched this popped up, none other than some KGB agents on board!

@Zanzibar From the Canberra Times. May 28, 1969:
"SYDNEY, Monday. —The Russian passenger liner Shota Rustaveli will make two cruises out of Sydney, to New Zealand in December, and to the South Pacific in January (sic 1970)…". So if this was only a South Pacific cruise (returning toSydney), when did the Shota Rustaveli arrive in Southampton with the Walker's on board?

 

[centred]

Hello , just popping in , re De Hedervary .

When he says the christian names Desire and David as christian names .....as we see he is named as Desire John Pierre David ? , The name David as a surname i researched as meaning of the house of David which is not really a name as such , it has a significant meaning re Jewish connection in history .

So i am under the impression his surname is incomplete or reworked so to speak ,
So it maybe possible he was De Hedevary as in Hedevary from as in the De ,the area Hedevary , I can re post that info of Hedevary location and history at a later time but it is easily found on google search re the blood line story if any one wants to verify right now .

So the only option left to research i guess would be to consider Desire JP David as related to Hedevary family tree somehow ,

If this makes sense it is just a suggestion or i could be barking up the wrong " tree' Of course

Other options are to follow the Siblings of both parents re being referred to as aunts and uncles, and following up a possible bit truth re incapacitated relatives , (i can see some truth to this part as it is not a necessary embellishment IMO )

I am not signed up to any common sites but i did note a search by a member of my Heritage twice late last year 2021 for Fred and Chaim DH if anyone is a member ? I am guessing some of you have already done this though


Chaim Dehedervary - search by MyHeritage Member
Member J. Bennett
Gender Unknown
Country

Australia
Joined September 21 2021 (5 months ago)
Last Active December 5 2021 (3 months ago)

 

[Estelle]

Maybe they did have a cafe, but had other business interests as well.

Maybe Mr W. Owned the cafe, but didn’t work there and had a manager and staff to run it.

In the 60s and early 70s, going to Cahill's was popular in the city. There was one in Pitt Street near Market Street but there were several others too. Maybe DdH's parents were owners of one of these.

By the '60s, the Cahill family had changed their coffee-shop chain into ethnically themed restaurants. They had 25 restaurants decorated with props, wall hangings, photographs, posters, and menus promising flavours from the South Sea Islands, Holland, Tudor England, Bavaria, the Vienna Woods, and so on. In a way, these restaurants represented the changing demographics of Australia through post- World War II immigration. Hundreds of thousands of migrants, mostly from the UK, Europe and the Balkans, poured into the country.

 

[Sillybilly]

Seriously? Really? Nobody pointed out that I had actually typed <nidsbuo> instead of <modsnip>.

You guys/gals are far too nice

(I should use the old cat on the keyboard excuse.)

 

[mishy66]

Do you have to subscribe to see the article?

Yes unfortunately now Aust newspapers are mostly subscriptions for online reading but if you do a search re said ship name, Greens Senator and KGB there is information about it all. It is very interesting!

 

[Roseberry]

In the 60s and early 70s, going to Cahill's was popular in the city. There was one in Pitt Street near Market Street but there were several others too. Maybe DdH's parents were owners of one of these.

By the '60s, the Cahill family had changed their coffee-shop chain into ethnically themed restaurants. They had 25 restaurants decorated with props, wall hangings, photographs, posters, and menus promising flavours from the South Sea Islands, Holland, Tudor England, Bavaria, the Vienna Woods, and so on. In a way, these restaurants represented the changing demographics of Australia through post- World War II immigration. Hundreds of thousands of migrants, mostly from the UK, Europe and the Balkans, poured into the country.

Post-war Sydney cafe-culture seemed to continue to be an important new-immigrant hub right up until the mid-1970's. Interesting re Russian immigrant Repin's chain all over that area, including a shop on corner of Market and Pitt, which had all closed down (on-sold?)by the late 1960's due to prohibitively expensive street-front rents. Cahill's and Sargents next to go. Perhaps coffee shops not as lucrative as they seem?

RGW and PW - is her middle initial G?

 

[centred]

Other options are to follow the Siblings of both parents re being referred to as aunts and uncles, and following up a possible bit truth re incapacitated relatives , (i can see some truth to this part as it is not a necessary embellishment IMO )

I am not signed up to any common sites but i did note a search by a member of my Heritage twice late last year 2021 for Fred and Chaim DH if anyone is a member ? I am guessing some of you have already done this though


Chaim Dehedervary - search by MyHeritage Member
Member J. Bennett
Gender Unknown
Country

Australia
Joined September 21 2021 (5 months ago)
Last Active December 5 2021 (3 months ago)

Desiree JP David has only 2 sisters ...Florentine Augustus Marie , I do not know the other sister

 

[Liselle]

Day 7 Inquest - RB can remember in 1976 "going to the receptionist on the GF of Chifley Centre and up the elevator to the 3rd floor for his citizenship, BUT cannot remember his first daughter’s name, nor when his mother, step father or brothers died! And, every time he went back to Belgium would visit this family and get money from his mother. I'm really enjoying Sunday afternoon!!

 

[Roseberry]

Well I've spent the day revisiting testimony D4 JO. It's been...long.

'Somebody' at least knew when Mama C died - in 1990, that's the date listed on the Coppennolle coins collection sale. And on the sale - by grandchild of MamaC - anyone find offspring of FW or DW that would fit the bill? I can find no other grandchildren other than RB's.

So interesting the denial of the coin collection having a name.

 

[car54]

In the 60s and early 70s, going to Cahill's was popular in the city. There was one in Pitt Street near Market Street but there were several others too. Maybe DdH's parents were owners of one of these.

By the '60s, the Cahill family had changed their coffee-shop chain into ethnically themed restaurants. They had 25 restaurants decorated with props, wall hangings, photographs, posters, and menus promising flavours from the South Sea Islands, Holland, Tudor England, Bavaria, the Vienna Woods, and so on. In a way, these restaurants represented the changing demographics of Australia through post- World War II immigration. Hundreds of thousands of migrants, mostly from the UK, Europe and the Balkans, poured into the country.

Yes I remember Cahills quite well having worked around Martin Place for 4 years in the mid 60's. I also offer Repins Coffee and Tea Shops. They had multiple cafes centered around George, Pitt and Market Streets.

There is a great site which features many of the cafes and restaurants of early Sydney including the 50-60s era. It's full of information but not easy to navigate.

Restaurants and Cafes | The Dictionary of Sydney

I thought RB was being creative when he said that the cafe was at the corner of Pitt and Market. I'm not so sure that was where he sipped his lattes. A more likely place was the Hermitage Cafe owned by Henri Renaut a Frenchman.

Sydney’s wining and dining evolution - Nicole Cama

Henri was a founding member of the Wine & Food Society of NSW. And so was John Keith WALKER. He had a wine bar restaurant at 87 Market Street (Corner Market and Castlereagh Streets. I reckon there's a good chance DW's father RG Walker was related or known to John Keith Walker.

His Biography is at Biography - John Keith (JK 'Johnnie') Walker - Australian Dictionary of Biography

IMO

 

[mishy66]

Yes I remember Cahills quite well having worked around Martin Place for 4 years in the mid 60's. I also offer Repins Coffee and Tea Shops. They had multiple cafes centered around George, Pitt and Market Streets.

There is a great site which features many of the cafes and restaurants of early Sydney including the 50-60s era. It's full of information but not easy to navigate.

Restaurants and Cafes | The Dictionary of Sydney

I thought RB was being creative when he said that the cafe was at the corner of Pitt and Market. I'm not so sure that was where he sipped his lattes. A more likely place was the Hermitage Cafe owned by Henri Renaut a Frenchman.

Sydney’s wining and dining evolution - Nicole Cama

Henri was a founding member of the Wine & Food Society of NSW. And so was John Keith WALKER. He had a wine bar restaurant at 87 Market Street (Corner Market and Castlereagh Streets. I reckon there's a good chance DW's father RG Walker was related or known to John Keith Walker.

His Biography is at Biography - John Keith (JK 'Johnnie') Walker - Australian Dictionary of Biography

IMO

Now that is on the money!
And that name HR has come up for me on something else I'm looking into!
Great work @car54

 

[mishy66]

Yes I remember Cahills quite well having worked around Martin Place for 4 years in the mid 60's. I also offer Repins Coffee and Tea Shops. They had multiple cafes centered around George, Pitt and Market Streets.

There is a great site which features many of the cafes and restaurants of early Sydney including the 50-60s era. It's full of information but not easy to navigate.

Restaurants and Cafes | The Dictionary of Sydney

I thought RB was being creative when he said that the cafe was at the corner of Pitt and Market. I'm not so sure that was where he sipped his lattes. A more likely place was the Hermitage Cafe owned by Henri Renaut a Frenchman.

Sydney’s wining and dining evolution - Nicole Cama

Henri was a founding member of the Wine & Food Society of NSW. And so was John Keith WALKER. He had a wine bar restaurant at 87 Market Street (Corner Market and Castlereagh Streets. I reckon there's a good chance DW's father RG Walker was related or known to John Keith Walker.

His Biography is at Biography - John Keith (JK 'Johnnie') Walker - Australian Dictionary of Biography

IMO

Interesting....

"In 1931 he set up an establishment opposite Bridge Street in George Street which he called ‘Ye Olde Crusty Cellar’ ...."

 

[brjakj]

Yes I remember Cahills quite well having worked around Martin Place for 4 years in the mid 60's. I also offer Repins Coffee and Tea Shops. They had multiple cafes centered around George, Pitt and Market Streets.

There is a great site which features many of the cafes and restaurants of early Sydney including the 50-60s era. It's full of information but not easy to navigate.

Restaurants and Cafes | The Dictionary of Sydney

I thought RB was being creative when he said that the cafe was at the corner of Pitt and Market. I'm not so sure that was where he sipped his lattes. A more likely place was the Hermitage Cafe owned by Henri Renaut a Frenchman.

Sydney’s wining and dining evolution - Nicole Cama

Henri was a founding member of the Wine & Food Society of NSW. And so was John Keith WALKER. He had a wine bar restaurant at 87 Market Street (Corner Market and Castlereagh Streets. I reckon there's a good chance DW's father RG Walker was related or known to John Keith Walker.

His Biography is at Biography - John Keith (JK 'Johnnie') Walker - Australian Dictionary of Biography

IMO

Renaut? As in NR? Hmmm….