Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12

[Carovb5]

Sorry about tagging you I got my sleuths mixed up

No problem at all! But didn’t want to take another sleuths spotlight. I found it very nice & respectful of you tagging (trying to) the one who found it!

 

[gymtonic]

Yes I’m interested it was a lightbulb moment when @Carovb5 explained that PUBS is stamps.. in Belgium. Who knew! Knowing that in 1977 stamps and old books were obtained by wonka just adds to the fact that I think @Carovb5 is on a valid theory with Renov Pubs.
Looking at wonka.. his love of coins, what pubs means, old books obtained.. I think his interests are in antique collectables the sort that fit into luggage (I don’t mean furniture or large artworks)

Just to throw another perspective in the mix though. Both "Renov" and "Pubs" are accepted abbreviations in French. "Renov" is short for Rénovation and "Pubs" is short for Publicité (as in advertising). "Une pub" being "an ad"

 

[BonnieB]

@bonnie, I don't think "early 1992" is correct. I thought they rented the house in Wollongbar for 12 months from late 1996 to late 1997.

Thanks Estelle, I will edit if I can. Don't know how I missed that

 

[Carovb5]

Sorry about tagging you I got my sleuths mixed up

No problem at all! But didn’t want to take another sleuths spotlight. I found it very nice & respectful of you tagging (trying to) t

 

[gymtonic]

1977 Electoral roll with hubby, Living in Monte st. North Tamborine. Occupation Beautician.

So many European families in Tamborine. All sorts of businesses

I also want to remind people who aren't from Queensland that Tamborine is a different place to Tamborine Mountain. They appear to be not far apart on a map but a bit of elevation and access difference to make them distinctively different places.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Just to throw another perspective in the mix though. Both "Renov" and "Pubs" are accepted abbreviations in French. "Renov" is short for Renovation and "Pubs" is short for Publicité (as in advertising)

Hmm so renovating publicity… would mean re-doing advertising campaigns? Maybe?

 

[gymtonic]

Hmm so renovating publicity… would mean re-doing advertising campaigns? Maybe?

Well, in terms of the "pub" bit yes, that is how I have been interpreting it and it fits with his current business so it all made sense to me to be about advertising. as far as Renov goes it could also mean "reimagined" so creative advertising maybe? It could be a play on words (in French)...the sort that is used when you make up a business name.

 

[Knitty]

MOD NOTE:

Thread is closed for cleanup. Check back in an hour.

 

[Knitty]

MOD NOTE:

Many posts have been removed.

Among other things . . .

ALLOWED SOCIAL MEDIA PAGES

Individuals
Victim (missing or murdered person)
Suspect (as officially named by LE)

• Links may be used to direct members to posts made by a victim or a suspect.
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There was a person's social media linked to this case. There is NO EVIDENCE in MSM that this person is linked to this case. In fact, searching "Marion Barton" and this person's name leads ONLY to Websleuths.

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Thread is reopened. Please think before you post.

 

[BabeBlues]

I also want to remind people who aren't from Queensland that Tamborine is a different place to Tamborine Mountain. They appear to be not far apart on a map but a bit of elevation and access difference to make them distinctively different places.

Yes the 2 often get mistaken as being the same place. Hazel Rd where the supposed 'Ye Old Passy' was meant to be is in Tamborine not Mt Tamborine just to help clarify for other WS's who might be interested. The two towns are about 20km apart.

 

[BonnieB]

Re, my previously posted timeline;

I don't think MB answered the M.F. Remakel newspaper ad in 1994/5.

IMO, it's possible RB practiced his "Remakel" act on at least one other victim before MB, possibly even taking her overseas on one of his 1995 trips. There were FOUR trips that year. He may or may not have been successful with his previous victim(s) but learned by his mistakes.

I don't think RB stole MB's wallet. It fits more with an opportunistic petty thief.

I suspect MB told SL the truth when she said the man in the car was someone she met at the Art Centre. That sounds more like his 'form'. There is a coffee shop there (like he did with Monique) or in the Art Centre itself.

* Has anyone read the published article when Marion won Qld Teacher of Excellence Award? It would be interesting to see how much detail about Marion was published.

IMO, he targets his victims rather than 'by chance meetings'. He likes to be a few steps ahead:

GGB - He knows she's single, lonely and vulnerable because she placed an ad in the paper for companionship.

JO - He already knows her background story from Barry Coopers bookstore.


I'm really hoping that LE has found other victims. AC's heavy questioning about the reason for the Wollongbah move is encouraging.

IMO MB met RB 4 - 6 weeks before she changed her name by deed poll in mid May 1997. He has admitted a 3 day affair which covers him for any witnesses who may have seen him at MB's house or elsewhere together.

I don't think he spent any time with MB in the UK so I doubt there will be any witnesses there either.

IMO, the only hope of linking RB to Marion is AFTER they both returned to Brisbane in August 1997.

Any suggestions or opinions?

 

[Estelle]

In reply to Bonnie's post, I predict that MB met RB through this ad. IMO She didn't place an ad herself and learnt French at High School in those days as I did. I could understand it. IMO it is an appealing ad to a single woman wishing to meet a man for marriage. How did MB come across this ad? IMO it is likely that a colleague of MB's who spoke French saw this ad and knew that MB was looking to meet a man so suggested that MB contact him and gave MB his phone no.

Saturday 10/12/94 FERNAND NOCOLAS REMAKEL (Le Courrier Australien)

MALE, 47 years old, single, tall, dark, restrained, non-smoker, university, multi-home owner, quiet, multilingual person, warm, motivated, old school with qualities, morals being important, seeks queen of hearts free,B.C.B.G,view permanent relationship and/or marriage: M. F. Remakel, Box L51, LENNOX-HEAD, NSW 2478. Tel. (066) 864788. The phone number has been linked to a premises leased by RB in Ballina in the name Ballina Coin Investments.
Q: Did Marion make contact by phone?

Yes IMO MB made contact by phone giving him too many personal details which people often do when first replying to ads eg her address, phone no, where she worked, and so on which he recorded. He probably then decided to check her out. So one morning early the next week, he drove to her house and followed her to TSS. He noted that she left the car door open and was carrying books into the school so he took the opportunity to see if she left anything of value in her car taking her wallet which contained her credit and Medicare cards, etc. This was Marion's last week of school that year and SL was coming to live with her for a few months. So the timing may not have been right for Marion to being an affair then.

Monday 12-15/12/94 Marion's wallet was stolen from her unlocked car at the TSS school between 12th & 15th Dec. Her CC was later used at a S/Station and a person captured on CCTV
Q: Is this event connected to RB?

Yes - as SL said that the woman who used her card looked "uncannily" like MB. When I saw DdH at the Inquest, I thought that 25 years ago, she had black hair like Marion and could have been slimmer then.

1995 FOUR trips overseas in this year on JL 20/10/95
Q: How many women answered his ad? Were other women taken overseas on these trips?

IMO RB and DdH knew enough about MB at this stage so put MB on hold for action later as MB lived further away than the other women.

1996 MARION won the Queensland Teacher of Excellence Award. (Publicised) Took a trip to Tassie with her friend. Talked about a teaching job in SA. Seemed unhappy at TSS.

IMO the publicity about MB's award spiked RB's interest again and he used it to contact MB by phone again to congratulate her on her award telling her had been very busy since they first spoke but he would like to make contact now. They decided to meet at the Arts Centre for a coffee and could have spent that night together at MB's house. RB was thus able to observe that MB owned valuable paintings, furniture and so on and was open to going overseas.

Late 1996 RB moved from Ballina to a larger house at 8 Rubiton St, WOLLONGBAH (about 45min drive west from Ballina on a gravel road) children at Ballina school and attending swimming after school. (family away from the house for predictable long periods of time)
Q: Was the move instigated by another victim living in or around Ballina?

No RB, whether in one meeting or more, had formulated a plan to scam MB of everything she had. In order to do this, he felt it necessary to move house to a more isolated area.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No Sally said that the woman looked like Marion.

Yes - as SL said that the woman who used her card looked "uncannily" like DdH.

 

[Estelle]

No Sally said that the woman looked like Marion.

Thanks Tootsie, I have corrected it now. I meant Marion.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I knew what you meant, Estelle XX

Thanks Tootsie, I have corrected it now. I meant Marion.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

SL would know if Marion spoke French or at least learned it school - I can’t recall ever hearing this mentioned in TLV does anyone else remember if they have?

do agree with Estelle most people in Marions age group were taught at school but would love to know if that were the case. That Marion did definitely speak French.

I also suspect there was another person in 1995 that may have been a target by him.

I actually wondered if there were some in Japan. I have never really believed the discounted flight by a person who worked at the airline… so many flights you would remember their name wouldn’t you?

I don’t know if this case has been publicised at all in Japan but wonder if someone over there knows something of RB or possible a woman that was taken advantage of too… in the instance of Japanese culture I suspect that if there was a woman there she may not have told anyone.

also think the art centre meeting was truth and most likely coffee shop not at the gallery.

I think he did go to Marions house as he has said and it was then he saw, artworks and antiques.. right up his alley.

 

[Estelle]

SL would know if Marion spoke French or at least learned it school - I can’t recall ever hearing this mentioned in TLV does anyone else remember if they have?

do agree with Estelle most people in Marions age group were taught at school but would love to know if that were the case. That Marion did definitely speak French.

I also suspect there was another person in 1995 that may have been a target by him.

I actually wondered if there were some in Japan. I have never really believed the discounted flight by a person who worked at the airline… so many flights you would remember their name wouldn’t you?

I don’t know if this case has been publicised at all in Japan but wonder if someone over there knows something of RB or possible a woman that was taken advantage of too… in the instance of Japanese culture I suspect that if there was a woman there she may not have told anyone.

also think the art centre meeting was truth and most likely coffee shop not at the gallery.

I think he did go to Marions house as he has said and it was then he saw, artworks and antiques.. right up his alley.

About Marion learning French, I remember SL saying that Marion taught the children French songs. Usually only the top classes learnt French at public high schools then but every class at selective high schools usually learnt French. I am a little older than Marion would have been.

But whether Marion learnt French at school or not, for me it is not important if the friend who saw the ad translated it for her over the phone. One would assume that the man who placed the ad also spoke English as he is living in Australia. So there was no need to speak French.

I was single many years after my divorce and friends would often tell me about an ad they saw and that I should reply to it. I probably would have replied to that ad myself as I have always wanted to live in France as I like Francophiles.

My gut feeling is that the reason for RB going via Japan was not about love scams. He could have just liked the free hotel layover on the way to Europe to reduce jetlag and fares with JAL were cheap then. I'm not sure if he usually had actual stopovers which he would have needed to find the Japanese coins he spoke of.

IMO RB would have gone to MB's house more than the three times he admitted to and before he moved to Wollongbar in late 1996. This love scam IMO was well-planned and wasn't the quick love scams he tried later with JO and GGB.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

About Marion learning French, I remember SL saying that Marion taught the children French songs. Usually only the top classes learnt French at public high schools then but every class at selective high schools usually learnt French. I am a little older than Marion would have been.

But whether Marion learnt French at school or not, for me it is not important if the friend who saw the ad translated it for her over the phone. One would assume that the man who placed the ad also spoke English as he is living in Australia. So there was no need to speak French.

I was single many years after my divorce and friends would often tell me about an ad they saw and that I should reply to it. I probably would have replied to that ad myself as I have always wanted to live in France as I like Francophiles.

My gut feeling is that the reason for RB going via Japan was not about love scams. He could have just liked the free hotel layover on the way to Europe to reduce jetlag and fares with JAL were cheap then. I'm not sure if he usually had actual stopovers which he would have needed to find the Japanese coins he spoke of.

IMO RB would have gone to MB's house more than the three times he admitted to and before he moved to Wollongbar in late 1996. This love scam IMO was well-planned and wasn't the quick love scams he tried later with JO and GGB.

True IF there was a friend who told her about the ad… no one seems to have known her mystery man from her friends that have spoken out, not her sisters, friends at school so IMO if Marion replied to the ad it was done on the quiet on her own. Yes naturally if a person lived here they would speak both languages BUT did she read French is probably more what I’m saying.

I taught my children when they were little a song in French, a song in Italian and a song in Spanish… I don’t speak or read any of those languages.

Songs are committed to memory, from hearing them and singing them..whether we know the language or not (as a singer myself I can confirm that)
But I certainly could not write any of them down in their languages.

teaching kinder kids a song in French could just mean Aloutte and we all know that one.. but do we all read French?

I think unless sally said she spoke French fluently then I don’t know if I believe she responded to the ad herself.

And with her friends saying they knew nothing about Remakel, then I can’t see how a friend read the ad to her as they would have seen the name Remakel.
And certainly would have come forward if they were a friend.

JMO

 

[BonnieB]

In reply to Bonnie's post, I predict that MB met RB through this ad. IMO She didn't place an ad herself and learnt French at High School in those days as I did. I could understand it. IMO it is an appealing ad to a single woman wishing to meet a man for marriage. How did MB come across this ad? IMO it is likely that a colleague of MB's who spoke French saw this ad and knew that MB was looking to meet a man so suggested that MB contact him and gave MB his phone no.

Saturday 10/12/94 FERNAND NOCOLAS REMAKEL (Le Courrier Australien)

MALE, 47 years old, single, tall, dark, restrained, non-smoker, university, multi-home owner, quiet, multilingual person, warm, motivated, old school with qualities, morals being important, seeks queen of hearts free,B.C.B.G,view permanent relationship and/or marriage: M. F. Remakel, Box L51, LENNOX-HEAD, NSW 2478. Tel. (066) 864788. The phone number has been linked to a premises leased by RB in Ballina in the name Ballina Coin Investments.
Q: Did Marion make contact by phone?

Yes IMO MB made contact by phone giving him too many personal details which people often do when first replying to ads eg her address, phone no, where she worked, and so on which he recorded. He probably then decided to check her out. So one morning early the next week, he drove to her house and followed her to TSS. He noted that she left the car door open and was carrying books into the school so he took the opportunity to see if she left anything of value in her car taking her wallet which contained her credit and Medicare cards, etc. This was Marion's last week of school that year and SL was coming to live with her for a few months. So the timing may not have been right for Marion to being an affair then.

Monday 12-15/12/94 Marion's wallet was stolen from her unlocked car at the TSS school between 12th & 15th Dec. Her CC was later used at a S/Station and a person captured on CCTV
Q: Is this event connected to RB?

Yes - as SL said that the woman who used her card looked "uncannily" like MB. When I saw DdH at the Inquest, I thought that 25 years ago, she had black hair like Marion and could have been slimmer then.

1995 FOUR trips overseas in this year on JL 20/10/95
Q: How many women answered his ad? Were other women taken overseas on these trips?

IMO RB and DdH knew enough about MB at this stage so put MB on hold for action later as MB lived further away than the other women.

1996 MARION won the Queensland Teacher of Excellence Award. (Publicised) Took a trip to Tassie with her friend. Talked about a teaching job in SA. Seemed unhappy at TSS.

IMO the publicity about MB's award spiked RB's interest again and he used it to contact MB by phone again to congratulate her on her award telling her had been very busy since they first spoke but he would like to make contact now. They decided to meet at the Arts Centre for a coffee and could have spent that night together at MB's house. RB was thus able to observe that MB owned valuable paintings, furniture and so on and was open to going overseas.

Late 1996 RB moved from Ballina to a larger house at 8 Rubiton St, WOLLONGBAH (about 45min drive west from Ballina on a gravel road) children at Ballina school and attending swimming after school. (family away from the house for predictable long periods of time)
Q: Was the move instigated by another victim living in or around Ballina?

No RB, whether in one meeting or more, had formulated a plan to scam MB of everything she had. In order to do this, he felt it necessary to move house to a more isolated area.

Thank you @Estelle, your reasoning regarding the ad is compelling. I had almost dismissed the idea that the ad was the first point of contact because of the 12 month time gap but if RB did receive other responses, it makes sense to put MB "on hold" and take advantage of closer victims. He did the same thing with GGB and JO; made initial contact, then disappeared for a few weeks before making contact again. Perhaps he uses that time to do his 'homework'.

"@Estelle" - IMO the publicity about MB's award spiked RB's interest again and he used it to contact MB by phone again to congratulate her on her award telling her had been very busy since they first spoke but he would like to make contact now.

Your comment re reading the publicity article reminded me of RB's testimony that he was sitting by the pool, reading a newspaper when he saw an ad placed by MB, looking for a companion. There are often small elements of truth woven into his lies so perhaps it was the Teacher's Award article he read, whilst sitting by the pool and it prompted him to make contact with Marion again.

The Arts Centre is a logical place to meet for the first time. It's a very public and safe venue and I imagine Marion was, at first, quite cautious. We've also heard how Marion was very outgoing and open even with strangers and RB spoke little about himself and encouraged his victims to do all the talking. Typical of conmen - he probably knew Marion's life story within an hour.

"@Estelle" RB, whether in one meeting or more, had formulated a plan to scam MB of everything she had. In order to do this, he felt it necessary to move house to a more isolated area.



What benefit would be gained by moving there? While Wollongbah is some distance from Ballina, the house itself was in a built-up area with neighbours and not isolated at all.

The only benefit I see, is that his wife and children would be away from the home for predictable periods in the mornings and afternoons.


Ideas and comments welcome

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Thank you @Estelle, your reasoning regarding the ad is compelling. I had almost dismissed the idea that the ad was the first point of contact because of the 12 month time gap but if RB did receive other responses, it makes sense to put MB "on hold" and take advantage of closer victims. He did the same thing with GGB and JO; made initial contact, then disappeared for a few weeks before making contact again. Perhaps he uses that time to do his 'homework'.

"@Estelle" - IMO the publicity about MB's award spiked RB's interest again and he used it to contact MB by phone again to congratulate her on her award telling her had been very busy since they first spoke but he would like to make contact now.

Your comment re reading the publicity article reminded me of RB's testimony that he was sitting by the pool, reading a newspaper when he saw an ad placed by MB, looking for a companion. There are often small elements of truth woven into his lies so perhaps it was the Teacher's Award article he read, whilst sitting by the pool and it prompted him to make contact with Marion again.

The Arts Centre is a logical place to meet for the first time. It's a very public and safe venue and I imagine Marion was, at first, quite cautious. We've also heard how Marion was very outgoing and open even with strangers and RB spoke little about himself and encouraged his victims to do all the talking. Typical of conmen - he probably knew Marion's life story within an hour.

"@Estelle" RB, whether in one meeting or more, had formulated a plan to scam MB of everything she had. In order to do this, he felt it necessary to move house to a more isolated area.



What benefit would be gained by moving there? While Wollongbah is some distance from Ballina, the house itself was in a built-up area with neighbours and not isolated at all.

The only benefit I see, is that his wife and children would be away from the home for predictable periods in the mornings and afternoons.


Ideas and comments welcome

Yes agree - swimming pool = seeing Marion article NOT personal ad