Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #13

[sunnybree]

Look, I don’t have a legal background (well not criminal law anyway) but I would have thought that they were on the way to a good circumstantial case, no? I think the nail on the coffin could be some good testimony from his kids. So I’m hoping they might take the stand tomorrow??? And I can’t imagine they’d be very thrilled with their father so I was hopeful they might spill their guts… but maybe that’s a fantasy too…!!!!

But would the kids know anything? As in know that he defrauded and killed Marion? They were teenagers so I doubt they were his co-conspirators and I can’t see him disclosing such a thing to them in the aftermath. And if either of those things were the case they would have put the inquest on hold and charged him, wouldn’t they? The inquest is not obligated to continue if they already have the evidence to charge him. (Example: the inquest for Daniel Morcombe was paused because police were launching an undercover operation against Brett Cowan and as criminal charges were laid, the inquest stayed on hold for years until all proceedings and appeals were finished.) His children might have met Marion or seen her belongings? But again that only would prove he knew her and stored some stuff for her which he has already admitted to. So close I think but not close enough… They seem to be focusing on the money trail though - the purchase of the second car, the money envelope. I can see that they would have asked his children questions about that and their answers could contribute to a circumstantial case (ie yes we had another car) but I think it’s unlikely that they are direct witnesses to the crimes. Just my opinion.

I still wonder where Marion might have been staying when she came back to Australia. A hotel? A short-term rental? Has this been explored yet at the inquest? I don’t think she stayed with his family (and I don’t think he would have willingly let her cross paths with them )that would have blown his story as her prospective husband. I feel like the con was on until her accounts were drained - and then something happened.

 

[BonnieB]

I think Casselden may be doing more than just fishing about a possible night in an airport hotel with Marion before his flight. Whenever Casselden says "are you quite sure about that Mr Bloooom" that makes me think he has evidence/knowledge that we aren't privy to and can't be released yet. IMO

I'm fairly sure the night before his flight (17th) was the night Sally saw her mum at Maccas

 

[BonnieB]

There are still some important locations that haven't been explored yet. I'm hoping they will be raised tomorrow.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I'm fairly sure the night before his flight (17th) was the night Sally saw her mum at Maccas

I thought Marion asked Sallys husband to leave her house while helping to pack up the house in Southport, they then saw her at Maccas, that would have been in May, she then moved into Lovedays house until she left. I cant remember the date but I thought RB left Aus 2 days before Marion in June ?

Possible the night she went missing when Sally phone lovedays home ?

 

[mishy66]

There are still some important locations that haven't been explored yet. I'm hoping they will be raised tomorrow.

me too! otherwise we can call AC and remind him

 

[BonnieB]

I thought Marion asked Sallys husband to leave her house while helping to pack up the house in Southport, they then saw her at Maccas, that would have been in May, she then moved into Lovedays house until she left. I cant remember the date but I thought RB left Aus 2 days before Marion in June ?

Possible the night she went missing when Sally phone lovedays home ?

Yes, I think you're right about Maccas. It must have been 16th May - the day she changed her name.
IMO there is no way he left home at 1 or 2am in a mini bus.

 

[mishy66]

I thought Marion asked Sallys husband to leave her house while helping to pack up the house in Southport, they then saw her at Maccas, that would have been in May, she then moved into Lovedays house until she left. I cant remember the date but I thought RB left Aus 2 days before Marion in June ?

Possible the night she went missing when Sally phone lovedays home ?

Yes May 21st ?

 

[BonnieB]

Yes May 21st ?

That was the day she vacated the house so 16th May was when she was still packing. So we know he was there that night but can't prove it!

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, I think you're right about Maccas. It must have been 16th May - the day she changed her name.
IMO there is no way he left home at 1 or 2am in a mini bus.

I am wondering if it was the night Marion told loveday she was staying at Sally' but didn't, they could have gone to a motel / hotel and she dropped him off at the airport

 

[BonnieB]

My Gawd this is frustrating! It would have been so easy to check these things out at the time or shortly after but now it's damn near impossible.

 

[mishy66]

I am wondering if it was the night Marion told loveday she was staying at Sally' but didn't, they could have gone to a motel / hotel and she dropped him off at the airport

Makes sense!

 

[KiwiNZ]

My Gawd this is frustrating! It would have been so easy to check these things out at the time or shortly after but now it's damn near impossible.

I am sure someone saw him at Marion's or can place him with Marion, otherwise why put yourself there ?, why even admit that you know her ... he ponied up with this the day after the police visit, not knowing if anyone had or could connected him to her, they hadn't, he didn't know that, I think he thought someone could connect them, who I have no clue !, the person probably doesn't even remember, but he has a sharp memory and probably remembers the interaction clearly.

JMO

 

[mishy66]

I am sure someone saw him at Marion's or can place him with Marion, otherwise why put yourself there ?, why even admit that you know her ... he ponied up with this the day after the police visit, not knowing if anyone had or could connected him to her, they hadn't, he didn't know that, I think he thought someone could connect them, who I have no clue !, the person probably doesn't even remember, but he has a sharp memory and probably remembers the interaction clearly.

JMO

Would it be possible that person was Owen? Given that RB would not know about his death or maybe not even know his name, or remember his name, could it be possible that it was Owen who met him and was at the house farewelling his mother? Did he have a motorbike?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Would it be possible that person was Owen? Given that RB would not know about his death or maybe not even know his name, or remember his name, could it be possible that it was Owen who met him and was at the house farewelling his mother? Did he have a motorbike?

yeah that motorbike mention bothers me .. he made it sound like he arrived at Marion's there was a motor bike there so he assumed another man was there and left ... so what, arrived unannounced after catching a train then a bus / taxi and just turned around an go back ? The motorbike has played a part but not that part IMO

But yes I was thinking could it of been Owen (he did have a bike) that met him, when he visited Marion before she went away, I cant remember the timing though, was it Sally's engagement ?

 

[KeenSleuth17]

But would the kids know anything? As in know that he defrauded and killed Marion? They were teenagers so I doubt they were his co-conspirators and I can’t see him disclosing such a thing to them in the aftermath. And if either of those things were the case they would have put the inquest on hold and charged him, wouldn’t they? The inquest is not obligated to continue if they already have the evidence to charge him. (Example: the inquest for Daniel Morcombe was paused because police were launching an undercover operation against Brett Cowan and as criminal charges were laid, the inquest stayed on hold for years until all proceedings and appeals were finished.) His children might have met Marion or seen her belongings? But again that only would prove he knew her and stored some stuff for her which he has already admitted to. So close I think but not close enough… They seem to be focusing on the money trail though - the purchase of the second car, the money envelope. I can see that they would have asked his children questions about that and their answers could contribute to a circumstantial case (ie yes we had another car) but I think it’s unlikely that they are direct witnesses to the crimes. Just my opinion.

I still wonder where Marion might have been staying when she came back to Australia. A hotel? A short-term rental? Has this been explored yet at the inquest? I don’t think she stayed with his family (and I don’t think he would have willingly let her cross paths with them )that would have blown his story as her prospective husband. I feel like the con was on until her accounts were drained - and then something happened.

No, I agree, I don’t think the kids would have witnessed anything that would be first hand direct evidence of murder, however I do think they would be able to provide some good information to form a very compelling circumstantial case. I’d be surprised if they don’t take this to criminal court after the inquest - I imagine a recommendation will be made by Her Honour (fingers crossed) as to consideration being made to criminal prosecution of him.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Can someone confirm (or not) ...in the list of aliases I have in notes I have the spelling as Zabdiel Zwilling (Zwilling being a known surname and German for twin). I now don't know where I got this from.
EDIT: it's OK I remembered it was from a search and have now passed it on as a tip.

We don't know the actual spelling because it's only ever been spoken not seen.

I have Zabdeel Zilly (based on what I heard in the Feb inquest, and reconfirmed today).

Another sleuth had Zadil Zwilling from the Feb inquest.

Google says Zabdeel ad Zabdiel are both acceptable spellings.

 

[BonnieB]

I am sure someone saw him at Marion's or can place him with Marion, otherwise why put yourself there ?, why even admit that you know her ... he ponied up with this the day after the police visit, not knowing if anyone had or could connected him to her, they hadn't, he didn't know that, I think he thought someone could connect them, who I have no clue !, the person probably doesn't even remember, but he has a sharp memory and probably remembers the interaction clearly.

JMO

Well, just for starters, who picked up that shipping container and where did it go and to who? We know he had his fingers in that pie!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Posting for reference re petrol station sighting, Marion not sleeping at LL's, RB leaving Aus, etc:

Around Christmas December 1996
Visits parents and informs them of her plans to travel in 1997.

15 March 1997
Marion engages a local real estate agent to sell home.

25 April 1997
Sells home.

9 May 1997
Transfer of sale signed.

During May
Chris helps Marion pack house but gets rushed out at 8 or 9pm. Sally and Chris are at the McDonald's and see Marion at petrol station with an unidentified man in her car. Sally thought it was funny but Marion panicked, pretended not to see Sally, and drove off before getting petrol. The next day, Sally asked her about the man and Marion said he was just someone she met through mutual friends at the Arts Centre, and he was taking her out for a drink to say goodbye before her trip.

13 May 1997 - Tuesday
Name change via deed poll to FNMR, with the Public Trustee in Brisbane.

16 May - Friday
Passport application with new name witnessed by dentist.

About 21 May 1997
Marion moved in with LL.

During her stay:
• Sally calls Marion at Lesley’s, but Marion told Lesley she was staying at Sally’s. No-one knows where she spent the night.
• Another night, Marion got back very late but claimed she locked her keys in car.

2 June 1997 - Monday
Mortgage on the house was discharged with Colonial and a high interest earning account was opened.

16 June 1997 - Monday
Marion notified TSS that her last day will not be Monday 14 July as previously arranged, but at the end of this week - Fri 20 June.

17 June 1997 - Tuesday
Richard Lloyd Westbury departs Aus to Japan.
Passenger card says he intends to spend 30 days in Belgium.

20 June 1997 - Friday
Marion's last day at TSS.

22 June 1997 - Sunday
Marion departs Aus on a Korean Airlines flight to South Korea.
Passenger card says divorced and moving permanently to Luxembourg.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Personally, I think the petrol station / maccas sighting was Marion picking him up, taking him to her house, and possibly shipping her things to his house the next day.

And the night Marion didn't sleep at LL's was possibly because she drove him to airport hotel and saw him off in the morning. IMO.

 

[BonnieB]

I am sure someone saw him at Marion's or can place him with Marion, otherwise why put yourself there ?, why even admit that you know her ... he ponied up with this the day after the police visit, not knowing if anyone had or could connected him to her, they hadn't, he didn't know that, I think he thought someone could connect them, who I have no clue !, the person probably doesn't even remember, but he has a sharp memory and probably remembers the interaction clearly.

JMO

The boxes have me stumped! At first I thought it was a ploy to redirect attention to this pilot or naval officer but then I thought, why place him at Wollongbar, wouldn't it have been safer to say the pilot arrived at Marion's house as he was leaving for the last time?
Then I thought it was to cover any items that may have been seen at his home. But today he described 'sealed' tea chests that he didn't open.
Why offer an implausible story like the boxes for no reason?
Was it because there was a chance Marion was seen at his house in Wollongbar by a neighbor or passer-by?
Why invent such an unbelievable story that places Marion at his home unless she WAS there? And if she was there, and possibly seen, he had to add the pilot to direct suspicion away from himself.