Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #13

[Carovb5]

Yeah, I think there's something to it, especially as he says he was running the family business with FD and AW in Luxembourg in the '80s. At some point in the inquest he said FD passed first. MC passed in 1990, he says AW passed before her, maybe '89 (I think) then FD would have to have passed somewhere in the '80s .... it can't be that hard to nominate a year, or decade at least, in my opinion. FD was born in 1942, so he would have been in his 40's in the '80s. I find it odd. MOO

A possibility imo:

If he or his legal team reads on Websleuths or other sites, that isn’t a weard answer, as we were asking ourselves if Freddy & Fredy were the same people in the newspapers + we weren’t sure it was him or an other FD. So he couldn’t use the info he found online… So he had to guess/make up his own fantasystory… They did not find what they could use…

Just speculation.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Re: Marion's travel to the UK etc

Please can forum members clarify, when Marion travelled out of Australia, she was travelling on an FNM Ramakel passport right? And it is in that name she returned?

So, prior to leaving Aus, she had legally changed her name to Florabella and had also altered her passport name and updated her driving licence with same? But not her bank accounts? Is that correct?

So she must have also changed her healthcare insurance, drivers insurance, notified her doctor / medical records, etc, as travelling without having done so could cause many many problems.

I assume that not wanting to reveal her name change would be the biggest factor in not wanting anyone to drop her at the airport?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Re: Marion's travel to the UK etc

Please can forum members clarify, when Marion travelled out of Australia, she was travelling on an FNM Ramakel passport right? And it is in that name she returned?

So, prior to leaving Aus, she had legally changed her name to Florabella and had also altered her passport name and updated her driving licence with same? But not her bank accounts? Is that correct?

So she must have also changed her healthcare insurance, drivers insurance, notified her doctor / medical records, etc, as travelling without having done so could cause many many problems.

I assume that not wanting to reveal her name change would be the biggest factor in not wanting anyone to drop her at the airport?

she travelled out and back on the Florabella passport

We have nothing to say she changed her drivers licence or anything else, other than her passport.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Re the name change, I do not support the argument that Marion changed her name on a romantic whim. I think we know enough about RB and his endless name changes to see that it was he who clearly 'masterminded' such. Therefore, my opinion, it was all part of his scam.

I think the reason RB knows all about fine china is as he most likely, along with coins, kept an eye out for small sized antique, vintage, rare, and collectable valuable items. Like many small / solo businesses do - there used to be a lot of money in that = jewellery, watches, coins, books, paintings, pottery, china. People who scour house clearances, flea markets, jumble sales, charity shops, auctions. They know how to identify authentic items and the names of valuable pottery. To me, I suspect that was his life. Buying and selling. Using multiple names for a whole host of reasons. That being the case, he would have definitely kept himself informed of the styles.

I firmly believe that if Marion did voluntarily change her name to Florabella, it was under his instruction and he 'fed' her that name. We now know how he talks romantic whimsical 'lovebombing' stuff.

I wonder - was he REALLY going to leave his wife for MC ?? Maybe ? Was the move to Tasmania because of some desperate situation and then he wanted 'out' of the whole family thing altogether and decided to focus on MC as his escape route ?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

she travelled out and back on the Florabella passport

We have nothing to say she changed her drivers licence or anything else, other than her passport.

See this is interesting to me. As we know from RB's testimony - all things being correctly done, when one changes their name on a passport, in Aus, in those days, the Post Office chop the old passport in half. So one can never refer to or use that old passport again.

How about if one says they have already lost that passport / it has been accidentally destroyed ? Then can one get a new passport issued in the new name whilst also holding on to the old one. ie. having two passports in two names?

Marion hired a car in the UK. That is not possible without showing a passport and drivers licence. She must have surely taken some travel insurance, drivers insurance (or they wouldn't let her take a car), and medical insurance as we all did back in those days in case of accident or emergency requiring urgent medical attention.

Also Marion was a school teacher, dot the 'I's and cross the 'T's sort of a person, I'd imagine. When one changes name, there is clear instruction that one must notify all authorities.

And the money in the bank in the UK? She literally wouldn't have been able to access it. They would find it highly suspicious to have a woman claiming to have changed their name and showing a passport but NOT having already notified them of the name change. At best they may have thought she's acting strange and eccentric and is maybe vulnerable or unwell, at worst they would have thought she's a fraudster. I wouldn't be surprised if something happened in the UK right there with that situation. Or was she relying on using a cash / credit card only? What if she lost it (or someone STOLE IT)?

 

[KiwiNZ]

See this is interesting to me. As we know from RB's testimony - all things being correctly done, when one changes their name on a passport, in Aus, in those days, the Post Office chop the old passport in half. So one can never refer to or use that old passport again.

How about if one says they have already lost that passport / it has been accidentally destroyed ? Then can one get a new passport issued in the new name whilst also holding on to the old one. ie. having two passports in two names?

Marion hired a car in the UK. That is not possible without showing a passport and drivers licence. She must have surely taken some travel insurance, drivers insurance (or they wouldn't let her take a car), and medical insurance as we all did back in those days in case of accident or emergency requiring urgent medical attention.

Also Marion was a school teacher, dot the 'I's and cross the 'T's sort of a person, I'd imagine. When one changes name, there is clear instruction that one must notify all authorities.

And the money in the bank in the UK? She literally wouldn't have been able to access it. They would find it highly suspicious to have a woman claiming to have changed their name and showing a passport but NOT having already notified them of the name change. At best they may have thought she's acting strange and eccentric and is maybe vulnerable or unwell, at worst they would have thought she's a fraudster. I wouldn't be surprised if something happened in the UK right there with that situation. Or was she relying on using a cash / credit card only? What if she lost it (or someone STOLE IT)?

I think you have a period of time to make the change of offical documents to your new name, sorry I can’t remeber what it is right now.

But totally agree on the car hire, it would not have been possible to hire, unless she got a international licence using her FR passport, these were issued by the transport company and not officially recorded as far as I am aware, I got one in 97 and it was paper with my photo.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think you have a period of time to make the change of offical documents to your new name, sorry I can’t remeber what it is right now.

But totally agree on the car hire, it would not have been possible to hire, unless she got a international licence using her FR passport, these were issued by the transport company and not officially recorded as far as I am aware, I got one in 97 and it was paper with my photo.

I assume one needed to have a valid drivers licence from own country plus a matching valid passport ?

Why would someone like Marion not get all her documentation and identification matching up? Makes no sense.

Also in terms of money - large amounts of money to boot - the first thing one would do, surely, is get straight to the bank and go in in person with the new passport and the name change documentation, here in the UK we call it a 'Deed Poll' and get one's accounts immediately all put in the same new name.

Marion is no criminal, never. She wouldn't suddenly take up enacting shady behaviour. She was a teacher of all things. Matching names to documents, stating correct facts, getting the right answer, not 'cheating' on tests, not telling fibs, not deceiving authority, respecting authority, doing what one is told, how one is told in fact, goes with her trade. It's her defining personality even.

She wouldn't have just been slightly uncomfortable having all her accounts and papers in different names, she'd had been feeling like something is very very wrong and it would have been mindblowing for her to lie and cheat documentation, I can't see her doing it in any context whatsoever.

Are we to believe that Marion suddenly became a crook and a liar operating on an international level? I don't believe that for one minute. But we do know someone who already was, long since, and that was HIS defining personality. I do believe she was vulnerable and may have been having a life crisis / mental breakdown in alignment with also believing she'd met the love of her life.

 

[ruby925]

Whilst it makes sense on many levels, I am still not convinced it was RB who engineered MB's name change. I know it was websleuths who found the Remakel ad, but the police weren't actually looking for MB anyway and RB couldn't rely on their lack of success. The ad linked RB to the most unusual name in Australia..schoolboy error..his undoing, admittedly after all this time.
The real FNR would have been eliminated quickly by police investigation.
Maybe MB thought that the deed poll paperwork showing the name change plus her paperwork would be enough to access her money in UK?
Agreed, RB may have been able to access MBs accounts as FNR. Was ID required for the 5k withdrawals? Was that QLD FNR license still valid at that point, I can't remember when it expired?
In one way, MB changing her name was good because it links her incontrovertibly to RB, but I also believe that's why she has not been found.
All MOO.

 

[sunnybree]

I have leaned towards Marion’s bank account details not being changed over to Florabella was an oversight; Marion was reported to be very stressed leading up to this trip, so much to do in such a short time. Maybe too she expected RB to be bankrolling things over there (I’m sure he would have passed himself off as having money) or she thought she could go into the bank with both sets of ID plus her name change documentation. Just because a person is usually organised and switched on doesn’t mean they can’t make a mistake. It might also be an indication that RB was in charge of all arrangements and it was his oversight. He may well has passed himself off as the experienced traveler and she relied on his advice and direction in her preparations. To get to the main point, though, I think the plan was to steal her money overseas, abandon her overseas, whilst the storage container of her valuables was directed to an address or location that RB controlled and Marion didn’t know about. She would come back to Australia and be unable to find him. Coming back to Australia was Plan B (I think). As for whether it could be tracked back to him or he was worried about the police, the man appears to have been getting away with cons for thirty years so it appears he took sufficient precautions that have enabled him to escape the consequences of his crimes right up to the present. Even when the woman (I can’t remember her name, it started with G) took out an AVO against him it did not lead to an unraveling.

 

[Whonose]

I think you have a period of time to make the change of offical documents to your new name, sorry I can’t remeber what it is right now.

But totally agree on the car hire, it would not have been possible to hire, unless she got a international licence using her FR passport, these were issued by the transport company and not officially recorded as far as I am aware, I got one in 97 and it was paper with my photo.

I am fairly (?) certain in the inquest when BS was asking RB about his expertise getting international drivers licences, in particular his false IDL in the name of FNR, he said on MB’s passport application, the form of ID she used was an IDL. He then asked RB did he help MB to obtain that, given his experience and expertise in this area..

I am confident this was during the later part of the last day of inquest but someone please correct me if this is wrong.

Edit: I have just listened to the inquest again and it’s at 4.36 where BS says in a box where the ID forms used for MB,s passport are selected, INT licence is ticked, suggesting MB did have an international drivers licence.

 

[Martinie]

Agreed! I hope the investigation remains ongoing ??

That’s fantastic, I hope writer can add MB name change in future articles!!

I can't wait to see what comes of this new lead! They have until November to do some more enquiries to give to the coroner.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Do any sleuths have opinions on the flip-flopping evidence RB gave about how he made first contact with Marion?

One thing I’m fairly certain of is he met her more than 4 times. Same with the GGB 2 times. A tactic used by love cheats through the ages.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Not sure if this has been asked before but on Day 1 of the latest inquest he stated he placed the ad in the Gold Coast Bulletin before flip-flopping over and over again. Would I be right in thinking this publication is not on Trove so wouldn’t come up with any hits if any of his aliases were on the ad say in 1996 or 1997? Does it need a manual search?

 

[BonnieB]

Not sure if this has been asked before but on Day 1 of the latest inquest he stated he placed the ad in the Gold Coast Bulletin before flip-flopping over and over again. Would I be right in thinking this publication is not on Trove so wouldn’t come up with any hits if any of his aliases were on the ad say in 1996 or 1997? Does it need a manual search?

Nothing comes up in Trove, I think everyone has tried.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I never believed that BS. Why would you sell a beautiful newly built home and move to Tassie for 12 months. He was hiding from someone!

As a person who is about to move to Tassie I can certainly understand moving there lol

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Not sure if this has been asked before but on Day 1 of the latest inquest he stated he placed the ad in the Gold Coast Bulletin before flip-flopping over and over again. Would I be right in thinking this publication is not on Trove so wouldn’t come up with any hits if any of his aliases were on the ad say in 1996 or 1997? Does it need a manual search?

Personally if he has said it was Gold Coast bulletin then it won’t be Gold Coast bulletin.. JMO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Personally if he has said it was Gold Coast bulletin then it won’t be Gold Coast bulletin.. JMO

Most probably although he has muddied the waters so many times with how he came to meet Marion it’s difficult to know which, if any, of them to believe. I still believe it was a ‘chance’ meeting at the Arts Centre.

If not done before I just wondered if anyone in Australia is able to visit and look at the Gold Coast Bulletin archives for 1996 and 1997 and look at any lonely heart ads assuming they published them at the time? Wouldn’t the newspaper itself be interested in finding out?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Some theories are:

1. Marion answers Le Courrier ad.

• He stalks her and steals her wallet to see if she has anything worth stealing.
• He starts a friendship with someone at her bank to get assets info.
• He continues stalking her and realises GE is always at her house.
• He keeps an eye on her from time until she's single.

2. He reads a lot of newspapers so he sees Marion won an award.

• He's obsessed that she is a teacher and soccer star's ex wife, like MC.
• He stalks her and realises she's single and has assets to steal.

3. He sees her at Art Centre because he hangs out there trying to spot appropriate victims.

• He stalks her and realises she's single and has assets to steal.

How silly. Just realised we can discount the idea she replied to Le Courrier, and then he stole her wallet to suss her out. Wallet was stollen first, then ad was placed.

The only way he could have stolen her wallet in 1994 is if in the months after he returned to NSW from Tas and she settled into Southport, he randomly spotted her, or someone tipped him off about her.

Theories update
1. Marion answered Le Courrier ad, he stalked her and waited until she was single.
2. He randomly stole her wallet OR was given info about her from bank or real estate and then stole her wallet.
3. He saw her award in the paper and became obsessed due to similarities with MC.
4. He met her through arts centre or school, either randomly or was tipped off.

I still think it's possible that RB had a friendship with the dodgy real estate agent OR bank employee (most likely bank due to the suspicious withdrawals later in timeline), and they could've informed RB when a single and vulnerable women bought a house and had assets. IMO.

But which theory is most likely?
We know RB doesn't pick victims at random, he plans ahead to make sure they have assets and are vulnerable.

He targeted GGB because she was single, owned a house and ran her own business. He targeted JO because she was getting divorced, a house and a settlement. He targeted MC because...??? We don't fully know. Perhaps he had envy or a grudge against FR and that turned into an obsession with obtaining MC? Or MC might've just been a wealthy divorcee target like JO. We don't know.

It is very possible RB saw MC in 1992 (thank you @BonnieB)
RB said he was in Luxembourg between 1981-83 with his family running the family business. That is when he allegedly met FR and MC as they went to RB's shop together. We might assume FR and MC were married at the time, right?

So it's possible FR and MC were separated by 1992 when RB went to EU. Perhaps he chose MC as a victim in the same way he chose JO... as soon as he heard they were getting divorced, he suddenly appeared. Just a thought.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Re: Marion's travel to the UK etc

Please can forum members clarify, when Marion travelled out of Australia, she was travelling on an FNM Ramakel passport right? And it is in that name she returned?

So, prior to leaving Aus, she had legally changed her name to Florabella and had also altered her passport name and updated her driving licence with same? But not her bank accounts? Is that correct?

So she must have also changed her healthcare insurance, drivers insurance, notified her doctor / medical records, etc, as travelling without having done so could cause many many problems.

I assume that not wanting to reveal her name change would be the biggest factor in not wanting anyone to drop her at the airport?

Interesting isn't it? It seems she was only ever meant to be FNMR overseas. It was a deliberate choice to remain Marion in Australia. This is why I too believe the name change was at his instruction. If she was madly in love and genuinely interested in a new image, she would have changed all her IDs, accounts and documents, no?

He must have spun a very interesting yarn as to why she needed to ONLY change her overseas IDs.

This is why I believe he was feeding her stories about their lives being in danger and they needed to be discrete. I believe she was afraid, hence why she got a will in Nov 1996.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Not sure if this has been asked before but on Day 1 of the latest inquest he stated he placed the ad in the Gold Coast Bulletin before flip-flopping over and over again. Would I be right in thinking this publication is not on Trove so wouldn’t come up with any hits if any of his aliases were on the ad say in 1996 or 1997? Does it need a manual search?

Yes, we've all tried searching the entirety of Trove But after the last podcast episode, it might be worth trying again.

Joni (the super sleuth that found the Le Courrier ad) said that she originally tried searching 'Remakel' with no success.

But she knew the software used to automatically transcribe the items in Trove often made errors, because it's based on visual recognition. It often misspells words or creates spaces where there are none. So she searched for things like re makel, and all kinds of combinations, until the ad came up. She then alerted Trove to fix the transcription error so everyone can find it now.

Point being... there may be more on Trove we haven't found yet. It may very well be a treasure trove, heehee