Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[mishy66]

Yes poor things.
Living here when MdeH was born - must have been such a challenging time for them

Google Search

 

[BonnieB]

I'd say it's Holland

Wow, it sounded like Poland!
Have to agree with @mishy66 - all lies!

Just like a few of his favourite mantras...

"Always travel light, just a little silver suitcase, I've still got it"
"Always declare cash at customs"
"Only one bank account, always same bank"
"Only ever had one car"
"Always to visit my family"
"Always visit the old family accountant"

 

[brjakj]

Yes poor things.
Living here when MdeH was born - must have been such a challenging time for them

Google Search

Maybe another coincidence, but it you google that address there is a link to an Arthur Biewer-Kintzele.

I have no idea who that is but the name is very very close to that of IK. And with so many coincidences in the case that may mean something?

 

[BonnieB]

Yes poor things.
Living here when MdeH was born - must have been such a challenging time for them

Google Search

That's strange because RB testified he'd only visited the city of Luxembourg a couple of times because his business was in Noertzange and they lived in Itzig. Mmmmm?

 

[mishy66]

Wow, it sounded like Poland!
Have to agree with @mishy66 - all lies!

Just like a few of his favourite mantras...

"Always travel light, just a little silver suitcase, I've still got it"
"Always declare cash at customs"
"Only one bank account, always same bank"
"Only ever had one car"
"Always to visit my family"
"Always visit the old family accountant"

He definitely said Poland

 

[mishy66]

Maybe another coincidence, but it you google that address there is a link to an Arthur Biewer-Kintzele.

I have no idea who that is but the name is very very close to that of IK. And with so many coincidences in the case that may mean something?

Fascinating!

 

[KinseyFan]

It would be eye opening to learn of what they were actually left as benificiaries in Wills, inheritances,family Trusts, farms, houses and property, Jewelry, books antiques. Paintings, coins, Shares, and cash. etc etc

Perhaps a convenient way to account for unaccounted income/ expenditure? Or am I stating the obvious

 

[poppypopcorn]

Listened to the latest podcast ep and again underwhelming. I did agree with them that the "tea chests full of teaching materials" is patently ridiculous. I would imagine that in the stage of education that Marion taught (Early Years/Kindergarten) there wouldn't be as much difference between the UK and Australia as for older children. But still, and I have said this lots of times before, Marion had no legal right to work in the UK and she would have known that. She was not stupid, and from everything that's been said about her, I don't get the impression of her as a deliberate law-breaker. And besides, you get caught working illegally in the UK and you get deported. I do believe though that the "hook" which Mr AKA used on Marion was the idea of buying a school in the UK as an investment. Be the owner, overall control, do it so much better than that Glover guy at TSS who you've said is making changes you don't like, we'll get married, once your papers come through then you can start working etc etc.

They were also obviously never legally married - for a start, Mr AKA was already married to someone else. However it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mr AKA whisks her off to a part of Belgium/Luxembourg where Marion doesn't speak the language, just a bit of basic French, and pays someone to conduct a "wedding" which Marion believes with all her heart is genuine. How romantic, a quickie overseas wedding! Just another con.

I also listened to the Prosecutors podcast and thought it was good to get a different perspective on the case. The host made a really good point about Marion's passport in the Remakel name. What would be the motive of a third party using this to return to Aus? If the aim was to drain money from bank accounts, bank managers don't ask when you arrived back in Australia, and whether you're there legally. I really do believe it WAS Marion who used that passport to come back, and who went to the bank to make the withdrawals - probably due to the issues over the two names and difficulties accessing funds from Europe.

I also am leaning towards the theory that Mr AKA didn't kill her - other interviewed victims haven't mentioned violence and none of his previous convictions are for violence. Coercive control, definitely. Murder? Not so much. I am leaning towards thinking that Marion, madly in love and newly "married", drains her account for the love of her life and is excitedly considering which pre-school they are going to buy in Sussex. The last withdrawal is made, the account is empty, and she tells her new "husband" that they are ready to back to the UK and complete the deal. New husband then vanishes, changes his name (again), drops off the radar. Marion gets increasingly desperate searching for him and then the reality slowly dawns that it was all a big con. She's devastated, ashamed and thoroughly embarrassed. Too ashamed to go to the police. So takes herself off somewhere and ends it all quietly.

 

[Liselle]

I'd say it's Holland

@Itsapuzzle I listened multiple times with the volume on high and it sounds more like Pole Land (long O) than Holland with a short O. Maybe it was just the counsel's pronunciation.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

@Itsapuzzle I listened multiple times with the volume on high and it sounds more like Pole Land (long O) than Holland with a short O. Maybe it was just the counsel's pronunciation.

Holland, lol, that's all I'm gonna say, it's Holland. JAL didn't fly out of Poland, they flew out of Amsterdam. No worries, he's probably not speaking clearly.

 

[Liselle]

Perhaps a convenient way to account for unaccounted income/ expenditure? Or am I stating the obvious

@KinseyFan Exactly! Always say it's money from inheritance which is non taxable in Australia.

 

[Liselle]

Holland, lol, that's all I'm gonna say, it's Holland. JAL didn't fly out of Poland, they flew out of Amsterdam. No worries, he's probably not speaking clearly.

@Itsapuzzle Agree! I always thought it was Holland (Amsterdam to be precise) but listening again to the inquest, it really sounds like Pole Land, so confused me greatly! LOL

 

[BonnieB]

For those of us still digging in the mire that is his life, I've noticed that he totally distanced himself from a few places during questioning...
Luxembourg city - thanks @mishy66 for putting it out there.
Lille - always very cagey about being there
Nymboida - doesn't even know where it is YET professed to own 20,000 acres there to JO.

 

[BonnieB]

Listened to the latest podcast ep and again underwhelming. I did agree with them that the "tea chests full of teaching materials" is patently ridiculous. I would imagine that in the stage of education that Marion taught (Early Years/Kindergarten) there wouldn't be as much difference between the UK and Australia as for older children. But still, and I have said this lots of times before, Marion had no legal right to work in the UK and she would have known that. She was not stupid, and from everything that's been said about her, I don't get the impression of her as a deliberate law-breaker. And besides, you get caught working illegally in the UK and you get deported. I do believe though that the "hook" which Mr AKA used on Marion was the idea of buying a school in the UK as an investment. Be the owner, overall control, do it so much better than that Glover guy at TSS who you've said is making changes you don't like, we'll get married, once your papers come through then you can start working etc etc.

They were also obviously never legally married - for a start, Mr AKA was already married to someone else. However it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mr AKA whisks her off to a part of Belgium/Luxembourg where Marion doesn't speak the language, just a bit of basic French, and pays someone to conduct a "wedding" which Marion believes with all her heart is genuine. How romantic, a quickie overseas wedding! Just another con.

I also listened to the Prosecutors podcast and thought it was good to get a different perspective on the case. The host made a really good point about Marion's passport in the Remakel name. What would be the motive of a third party using this to return to Aus? If the aim was to drain money from bank accounts, bank managers don't ask when you arrived back in Australia, and whether you're there legally. I really do believe it WAS Marion who used that passport to come back, and who went to the bank to make the withdrawals - probably due to the issues over the two names and difficulties accessing funds from Europe.

I also am leaning towards the theory that Mr AKA didn't kill her - other interviewed victims haven't mentioned violence and none of his previous convictions are for violence. Coercive control, definitely. Murder? Not so much. I am leaning towards thinking that Marion, madly in love and newly "married", drains her account for the love of her life and is excitedly considering which pre-school they are going to buy in Sussex. The last withdrawal is made, the account is empty, and she tells her new "husband" that they are ready to back to the UK and complete the deal. New husband then vanishes, changes his name (again), drops off the radar. Marion gets increasingly desperate searching for him and then the reality slowly dawns that it was all a big con. She's devastated, ashamed and thoroughly embarrassed. Too ashamed to go to the police. So takes herself off somewhere and ends it all quietly.

I have to say I agree that Marion probably was under the impression they were married when she ticked that box on her incoming card. Perhaps he was able to convince her that lodging forms (easily forged) was all that is required for the legalities of marriage in Luxembourg. Maybe he promised her a more romantic wedding when they returned to Australia, who knows but I do think she was being honest when she ticked that box - she had no reason to lie.

 

[Bagpus]

Listened to the latest podcast ep and again underwhelming. I did agree with them that the "tea chests full of teaching materials" is patently ridiculous. I would imagine that in the stage of education that Marion taught (Early Years/Kindergarten) there wouldn't be as much difference between the UK and Australia as for older children. But still, and I have said this lots of times before, Marion had no legal right to work in the UK and she would have known that. She was not stupid, and from everything that's been said about her, I don't get the impression of her as a deliberate law-breaker. And besides, you get caught working illegally in the UK and you get deported. I do believe though that the "hook" which Mr AKA used on Marion was the idea of buying a school in the UK as an investment. Be the owner, overall control, do it so much better than that Glover guy at TSS who you've said is making changes you don't like, we'll get married, once your papers come through then you can start working etc etc.

They were also obviously never legally married - for a start, Mr AKA was already married to someone else. However it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mr AKA whisks her off to a part of Belgium/Luxembourg where Marion doesn't speak the language, just a bit of basic French, and pays someone to conduct a "wedding" which Marion believes with all her heart is genuine. How romantic, a quickie overseas wedding! Just another con.

I also listened to the Prosecutors podcast and thought it was good to get a different perspective on the case. The host made a really good point about Marion's passport in the Remakel name. What would be the motive of a third party using this to return to Aus? If the aim was to drain money from bank accounts, bank managers don't ask when you arrived back in Australia, and whether you're there legally. I really do believe it WAS Marion who used that passport to come back, and who went to the bank to make the withdrawals - probably due to the issues over the two names and difficulties accessing funds from Europe.

I also am leaning towards the theory that Mr AKA didn't kill her - other interviewed victims haven't mentioned violence and none of his previous convictions are for violence. Coercive control, definitely. Murder? Not so much. I am leaning towards thinking that Marion, madly in love and newly "married", drains her account for the love of her life and is excitedly considering which pre-school they are going to buy in Sussex. The last withdrawal is made, the account is empty, and she tells her new "husband" that they are ready to back to the UK and complete the deal. New husband then vanishes, changes his name (again), drops off the radar. Marion gets increasingly desperate searching for him and then the reality slowly dawns that it was all a big con. She's devastated, ashamed and thoroughly embarrassed. Too ashamed to go to the police. So takes herself off somewhere and ends it all quietly.

I do think this is possible. And the fact that he tried to abandon JO in the UK, rather than be in her presence when the major theft took place, may suggest that he was trying to avoid what happened with MB.

On the other hand, wouldn't her body have been found? It's hard to hide your body after you've passed. Maybe she's a UID. Would SL have access to these files? Do you have a NAMUS equivalent in Australia?

Or her death was an accident or not part of the plan. I'd bet as a teacher MB had a strict side that might have taken RB aback.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Do any sleuths know if when RB is using other names eg: when he was using using passport that didn't match his name - what was his marital status at the time? I am curious based on @poppypopcorn comment above regarding him marrying Marion and how he was already married - well yes 'he' is but was Richard Lloyd Westbury married on his departure and incoming cards? So if MB thought he was FR based on the ad.....FR isn't married - RB/FDH/RW/RLW/RR ....get what I'm saying?
Who is to say the pseudonyms aren't married? So many OS trips without his wife and family....particular places regularly - like Amsterdam...cagey as mentioned by @BonnieB re: Lille and @mishy66 - Luxembourg City -
We have seen him arrive into OZ as WW unmarried - then married the next day on documents to apply for citizenship via marriage to IK to leave the country ticking divorce....divorce where??
To come back into OZ as FD then leave and come back in and change his name to FDH before Marriage to D.....
Do we know for a fact he divorced - IK? NR? JL? or was he married under various aliases? And more so has he potentially married other women in his travels to completely rip them off - married under a name that can't be traced back in australia??

 

[BonnieB]

I do think this is possible. And the fact that he tried to abandon JO in the UK rather than be in her presence when the major theft took place may suggest that he was trying to avoid what happened with MB.

On the other hand, wouldn't her body have been found? It's hard to hide your body after you've passed. Maybe she's a UID. Would SL have access to these files? Do you have a NAMUS equivalent in Australia?

Or her death was an accident or not part of the plan. I'd bet as a teacher MB had a strict side that might have taken RB aback.

Agree that suicide is unlikely, not impossible, but unlikely.

The accident is more likely. He is confronted, lashes out, a fall, hits her head. Very possible.

Actually, I listened to a "psychic" who said that there were two other men responsible, both drunk, at Byron Bay. She mentioned the name Jeff or Jeffrey.
That got me thinking that IF Marion was withdrawing money every day - did it go unnoticed?
Is it possible she was mugged for the cash, died during the attack and her body taken somewhere by the muggers?

I suppose it's possible but why would the muggers bother to risk themselves further by hiding her body? Robbers generally snatch and run. Back to square one - RB IMO

 

[BonnieB]

Do any sleuths know if when RB is using other names eg: when he was using using passport that didn't match his name - what was his marital status at the time? I am curious based on @poppypopcorn comment above regarding him marrying Marion and how he was already married - well yes 'he' is but was Richard Lloyd Westbury married on his departure and incoming cards? So if MB thought he was FR based on the ad.....FR isn't married - RB/FDH/RW/RLW/RR ....get what I'm saying?
Who is to say the pseudonyms aren't married? So many OS trips without his wife and family....particular places regularly - like Amsterdam...cagey as mentioned by @BonnieB re: Lille and @mishy66 - Luxembourg City -
We have seen him arrive into OZ as WW unmarried - then married the next day on documents to apply for citizenship via marriage to IK to leave the country ticking divorce....divorce where??
To come back into OZ as FD then leave and come back in and change his name to FDH before Marriage to D.....
Do we know for a fact he divorced - IK? NR? JL? or was he married under various aliases? And more so has he potentially married other women in his travels to completely rip them off - married under a name that can't be traced back in australia??

He only did it one other time that I found.

JULY 1986 Changed name & passport to Richard Lloyd West
1989 Changed name to Wouters Willy
OCT 1991 Departed Aust on illegal Richard Lloyd West passport

But I get what you're saying, one or two trips OS isn't enough to maintain another wife but how many other women in Europe 'thought' they married old mate and lost their life savings?

 

[MrsWattle]

For those of us still digging in the mire that is his life, I've noticed that he totally distanced himself from a few places during questioning...
Luxembourg city - thanks @mishy66 for putting it out there.
Lille - always very cagey about being there
Nymboida - doesn't even know where it is YET professed to own 20,000 acres there to JO.

His 4th wife was nervous as hell and mumbled Suffolk Park after AC listed the places, and not to mention all their PO Boxes. Normally one PO Box is enough and you just get mail redirected to your residential address. Having a PO Box in every town every 10 or 15 KMs is most intriguing, it makes it interesting because he used PO boxes for scamming lonely hearts or dodgy dealings. I think we only know about 5% of the truth. Polygraph the Polyglot in his native tongue. German, French, Dutch, DNA test. Feel sorry for any other victims or children that he had.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Listened to the latest podcast ep and again underwhelming. I did agree with them that the "tea chests full of teaching materials" is patently ridiculous. I would imagine that in the stage of education that Marion taught (Early Years/Kindergarten) there wouldn't be as much difference between the UK and Australia as for older children. But still, and I have said this lots of times before, Marion had no legal right to work in the UK and she would have known that. She was not stupid, and from everything that's been said about her, I don't get the impression of her as a deliberate law-breaker. And besides, you get caught working illegally in the UK and you get deported. I do believe though that the "hook" which Mr AKA used on Marion was the idea of buying a school in the UK as an investment. Be the owner, overall control, do it so much better than that Glover guy at TSS who you've said is making changes you don't like, we'll get married, once your papers come through then you can start working etc etc.

They were also obviously never legally married - for a start, Mr AKA was already married to someone else. However it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Mr AKA whisks her off to a part of Belgium/Luxembourg where Marion doesn't speak the language, just a bit of basic French, and pays someone to conduct a "wedding" which Marion believes with all her heart is genuine. How romantic, a quickie overseas wedding! Just another con.

I also listened to the Prosecutors podcast and thought it was good to get a different perspective on the case. The host made a really good point about Marion's passport in the Remakel name. What would be the motive of a third party using this to return to Aus? If the aim was to drain money from bank accounts, bank managers don't ask when you arrived back in Australia, and whether you're there legally. I really do believe it WAS Marion who used that passport to come back, and who went to the bank to make the withdrawals - probably due to the issues over the two names and difficulties accessing funds from Europe.

I also am leaning towards the theory that Mr AKA didn't kill her - other interviewed victims haven't mentioned violence and none of his previous convictions are for violence. Coercive control, definitely. Murder? Not so much. I am leaning towards thinking that Marion, madly in love and newly "married", drains her account for the love of her life and is excitedly considering which pre-school they are going to buy in Sussex. The last withdrawal is made, the account is empty, and she tells her new "husband" that they are ready to back to the UK and complete the deal. New husband then vanishes, changes his name (again), drops off the radar. Marion gets increasingly desperate searching for him and then the reality slowly dawns that it was all a big con. She's devastated, ashamed and thoroughly embarrassed. Too ashamed to go to the police. So takes herself off somewhere and ends it all quietly.

There's a lot of interesting points and arguments here.

I too have been wondering if what became of Marion could possibly have involved her breaking down and / or taking her own life either in the UK or back in Aus, once she realised she had been scammed.

Lots of ideas / questions arise.

Re Violent endings: We are somewhat 'assuming' RB isn't a violent person but that's not at all known. We'd need to know far more about him. He's a large man with control and dominance issues, possibly military / combat training in younger life. Also, even unfit feeble cowardly men can use lethal weapons or covert tactics - drugging, poisoning, injecting whilst asleep, 'gas leaks' -or- pay someone else to do the deed.

Even if we were to assume RB is usually non-violent in all circumstances, there could have been a rapid escalation incident whereby Marion realised she'd been scammed and herself angrily confronted him, maybe tried to corner him / contain him in a room to have it out. In these type of situations where 'the gig is up', a person could realise they need to put a stop to the other person.

Did Marion take her own life in despair? Either in the UK or Australia? Only the people closest to her would know her character well enough but I have personal experience that certainly Narc / Psychopathic abusers revel in the power they hold in inducing suicidal despair in a person and that being in relationships with them can leave one emotionally adrift and lost.

Did Marion have some sort of 'episode' / breakdown upon realising she'd been scammed? The rapid descent - high of thinking one's dreams have come true crashing down to the low of knowing one has been abused - is enough to induce shock, trauma, imbalance, mental breakdown. Was she the sort of person who would have immediately reached out to friends and family to discuss this type of thing? Would she have been angrily energised and want to set the record straight, inform the police, fight for her money back, and seek justice? Certainly she had friends and family and was it not her that took the money out, certainly the bank would have had to refund her.

Maybe there's a clue in that last bit? If Marion returned to Aus and took her own money out, the bank would not have to make it good. Whereas if Marion found out she'd been de-funded by a fraudster, they would have had to correct the problem and repay her as well as launch an investigation. Being left with nothing, could that tip someone over the edge? No job, no home, no money? Only those closest to Marion could guess at how she would have been.