Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[Meligator]

I’m really ignorant of how financial crimes work and hoping someone can explain to me — like I’m a child — how the Renov Pubs company would/could be used to launder money or facilitate his crimes. If he’s just stealing cash money and stashing it in a safe in his house, what does he need the company for? Is he (potentially) claiming the company made $$ selling marketing materials or whatever & filing a tax report? Wouldn’t that just complicate his pension money?

 

[Meligator]

I don’t doubt that RB could become violent depending on the circumstances, but I also don’t see the need for a confrontation or “break-up.” MB didn’t know his real name, his number etc. He could have very easily said he’s running to the store and just never come back. In fact, I don’t know why he would bother to engage in a confrontation—it’s of no benefit to him. Maybe she somehow discovered his real identity — and that presented a new problem for him. But even then, he didn’t seem so concerned about that. He told GGB is name (close enough police could find him), and he showed JO several of his legitimate alias’s. So, while these women may not have known his address, they knew enough to have police identify him.

Unless Marion confronted him with “I know who you are and I’m going to the police,” I’m guessing he just took her money and walked away. She probably waiting for him to return and waited and waited, until at somepoint realized she’d been conned & then took her own life.

 

[BonnieB]

@Meligator I’m guessing he just took her money and walked away. She probably waiting for him to return and waited and waited, until at somepoint realized she’d been conned & then took her own life.

I can't see that theory fitting the timeline.
Daily withdrawals for 3.5 weeks, then suddenly stopping.
6 weeks of inaction.
Withdrawal of $80k balance.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What do we know about Marion's passports? Was Marion holding two valid passports?

ie despite the name change, had she managed to keep a hold of the MB one without the corner or cover cut off or in half? (a la RB tactics)

Did Marion have British heritage? Back in the 90s under the 'patriality' agreements, lots of Australians in the UK had dual citizenship and two valid passports for both countries off the back of having one British grandparent. If Marion had one British parent, would she have wanted to claim her passport whilst in London I wonder? And if so, would it have been in the name of MB / FNMR? I assume the authorities have already checked on this type of query.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don’t doubt that RB could become violent depending on the circumstances, but I also don’t see the need for a confrontation or “break-up.” MB didn’t know his real name, his number etc. He could have very easily said he’s running to the store and just never come back. In fact, I don’t know why he would bother to engage in a confrontation—it’s of no benefit to him. Maybe she somehow discovered his real identity — and that presented a new problem for him. But even then, he didn’t seem so concerned about that. He told GGB is name (close enough police could find him), and he showed JO several of his legitimate alias’s. So, while these women may not have known his address, they knew enough to have police identify him.

Unless Marion confronted him with “I know who you are and I’m going to the police,” I’m guessing he just took her money and walked away. She probably waiting for him to return and waited and waited, until at somepoint realized she’d been conned & then took her own life.

Just to clarify, when I suggested there may have been a confrontation, I definitely meant one that Marion started. If she had become suspicious or had solid evidence, at that point, I cannot see how RB could allow her life to continue. She may have even become extremely angry and yelling.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The biggest clue to this idea is that Marion has never been found. Assuming she is no longer living, then that would hint towards a murderous ending as otherwise her body together with identification clues would have been found.

I was even speculating if the whole point of RB and MB hiring a car and exploring the countryside areas he had previously lived are quite literally premeditated murder. He goes there because he knows the area. There are some remote places in the south of England such as huge and dense forests near Tunbridge Wells as well as remote beaches and cliff tops on the south coast.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I’m really ignorant of how financial crimes work and hoping someone can explain to me — like I’m a child — how the Renov Pubs company would/could be used to launder money or facilitate his crimes. If he’s just stealing cash money and stashing it in a safe in his house, what does he need the company for? Is he (potentially) claiming the company made $$ selling marketing materials or whatever & filing a tax report? Wouldn’t that just complicate his pension money?

Don't know. I'm the same as you. All I know about money laundering cash on a very basic 'old skool' level is that criminals can clean 'dirty money' by claiming they run a cash generating business.

So, for example, lets say they earn their big money selling street drugs for cash, they keep a hairdressing shop which in reality barely trades but they claim is a successful thriving business. That way they can regularly bank deposit cash and pay themselves a wage from it which justifies their non criminal existence and income to authorities.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don’t doubt that RB could become violent depending on the circumstances, but I also don’t see the need for a confrontation or “break-up.” MB didn’t know his real name, his number etc. He could have very easily said he’s running to the store and just never come back. In fact, I don’t know why he would bother to engage in a confrontation—it’s of no benefit to him. Maybe she somehow discovered his real identity — and that presented a new problem for him. But even then, he didn’t seem so concerned about that. He told GGB is name (close enough police could find him), and he showed JO several of his legitimate alias’s. So, while these women may not have known his address, they knew enough to have police identify him.

Unless Marion confronted him with “I know who you are and I’m going to the police,” I’m guessing he just took her money and walked away. She probably waiting for him to return and waited and waited, until at somepoint realized she’d been conned & then took her own life.

This is a very odd and confusing aspect.

So, he was not carefully and meticulously ensuring that neither GGB or JO could possibly establish his real identity and whereabouts?

That would make him either someone chaotic, reckless, careless, and driven by an insane repetitive compulsion -or- someone very assured in the knowledge that if anything goes wrong, he can extinguish life and fully dispose of the evidence.

He's either a cold-blooded, calculated, premeditated murderer -or- absolutely deranged with no proper forethought and idea of how to get out of the situation after he's enacted the theft. They do say that one of the problems with addicts is they fail to join the dots and are terrible at understanding 'cause and effect', with a high drive for instant gratification and lack of forward planning.

If he's a lackadaisical lunatic, then WHERE is Marion? Her very absence and all his long game planning (placing the ad, etc) speaks to that he isn't.

 

[Bagpus]

I don’t doubt that RB could become violent depending on the circumstances, but I also don’t see the need for a confrontation or “break-up.” MB didn’t know his real name, his number etc. He could have very easily said he’s running to the store and just never come back. In fact, I don’t know why he would bother to engage in a confrontation—it’s of no benefit to him. Maybe she somehow discovered his real identity — and that presented a new problem for him. But even then, he didn’t seem so concerned about that. He told GGB is name (close enough police could find him), and he showed JO several of his legitimate alias’s. So, while these women may not have known his address, they knew enough to have police identify him.

Unless Marion confronted him with “I know who you are and I’m going to the police,” I’m guessing he just took her money and walked away. She probably waiting for him to return and waited and waited, until at somepoint realized she’d been conned & then took her own life.

There is a lot of sense in that.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

For those of us still digging in the mire that is his life, I've noticed that he totally distanced himself from a few places during questioning...
Luxembourg city - thanks @mishy66 for putting it out there.
Lille - always very cagey about being there
Nymboida - doesn't even know where it is YET professed to own 20,000 acres there to JO.

And Tunbridge Wells where he took his daughter to the hospital 3 times but never went through the town according to him.

 

[Meligator]

Don't know. I'm the same as you. All I know about money laundering cash on a very basic 'old skool' level is that criminals can clean 'dirty money' by claiming they run a cash generating business.

So, for example, lets say they earn their big money selling street drugs for cash, they keep a hairdressing shop which in reality barely trades but they claim is a successful thriving business. That way they can regularly bank deposit cash and pay themselves a wage from it which justifies their non criminal existence and income to authorities.

Like a coffee shop

 

[Meligator]

@Meligator I’m guessing he just took her money and walked away. She probably waiting for him to return and waited and waited, until at somepoint realized she’d been conned & then took her own life.

I can't see that theory fitting the timeline.
Daily withdrawals for 3.5 weeks, then suddenly stopping.
6 weeks of inaction.
Withdrawal of $80k balance.

Yes the break in time is very strange, but I meant disappeared after the 80k (around the time the security envelope was opened). I had wondered even if RB traveled back overseas in or right after October, but based on inquest info it seems not. So does seem strange to have such a big gap in time between the initial withdrawals and the last. Maybe he was waiting on the money from the sale of the car to potentially hit the bank before having MB make the final, large withdrawal. And eventually decided it wasn’t worth the wait? Who knows.

 

[Liselle]

The biggest clue to this idea is that Marion has never been found. Assuming she is no longer living, then that would hint towards a murderous ending as otherwise her body together with identification clues would have been found.

I was even speculating if the whole point of RB and MB hiring a car and exploring the countryside areas he had previously lived are quite literally premeditated murder. He goes there because he knows the area. There are some remote places in the south of England such as huge and dense forests near Tunbridge Wells as well as remote beaches and cliff tops on the south coast.

And if MB (to quote her "won't be in touch for while") along with RB took the Dover to Calais overnight ferry, she could have been pushed overboard.

 

[Liselle]

Don't know. I'm the same as you. All I know about money laundering cash on a very basic 'old skool' level is that criminals can clean 'dirty money' by claiming they run a cash generating business.

So, for example, lets say they earn their big money selling street drugs for cash, they keep a hairdressing shop which in reality barely trades but they claim is a successful thriving business. That way they can regularly bank deposit cash and pay themselves a wage from it which justifies their non criminal existence and income to authorities.

Or, go to any Casino, buy gambling chips with dirty cash; play a few games; win a little, lose a little; cash in chips for a casino cheque. Voilà, cleaned/legitimate money. And to quote DdH,"he never had any big wins"!! LOL

 

[KittensAugustus]

I think what is telling is what RB has admitted to. Given he admits nothing usually I find it interesting what he has been prepared to concede. Clearly he thinks there is evidence to support these admissions.
- He placed the ad
- Marion replied to the ad
- He visited Marion
- Marion called his home in xx (I have COVID and cannot remember his address)
- Marion visited his home in xx

Based on those facts it seems likely that the last time he saw Marion was at his home after she arrived there to .... [confront him/access her belongings/something else]

Marion called him because somehow she managed to identify who he was. The 'lost license' situation may actually suggest Marion accessed his wallet and found his real license at some stage. Once she had that, she could easily locate him to confront him.

 

[BonnieB]

I think what is telling is what RB has admitted to. Given he admits nothing usually I find it interesting what he has been prepared to concede. Clearly he thinks there is evidence to support these admissions.
- He placed the ad
- Marion replied to the ad
- He visited Marion
- Marion called his home in xx (I have COVID and cannot remember his address)
- Marion visited his home in xx

Based on those facts it seems likely that the last time he saw Marion was at his home after she arrived there to .... [confront him/access her belongings/something else]

Marion called him because somehow she managed to identify who he was. The 'lost license' situation may actually suggest Marion accessed his wallet and found his real license at some stage. Once she had that, she could easily locate him to confront him.

IMO, RB creates his own reality, he plays mind games to confuse and gaslight; even when hard evidence is placed in front of him he will assert that evidence is wrong. He admits things that don't matter or conflict with his narrative, then denies, then he can't remember.

- He placed the ad - Yes, because it doesn't matter, it has nothing to do with Marion.
- Marion replied - He has changed his evidence numerous times, created confusion and diversion from the real way he met Marion. IMO it was at the Art Centre which he flatly denied.
- He visited Marion - Yes, because he initially believed the police had witnesses.
- Marion called his home - Yes, no, and last evidence was maybe, can't remember.
- Marion visited his home - IMO, a concocted story to divert attention to the mythical pilot character.

So, we have him admitting placing an ad in 1994 and visiting Marion a couple of times in 1997.
You really have to listen carefully to ALL his inquest evidence (multiple times) to understand how he functions.

 

[I dont buy it]

I’ve often wondered - but could have it been DDH withdrawing the money posing as Marion ?
I just remembered that he had wanted JO to change her appearance …

 

[ruby925]

Yes the break in time is very strange, but I meant disappeared after the 80k (around the time the security envelope was opened). I had wondered even if RB traveled back overseas in or right after October, but based on inquest info it seems not. So does seem strange to have such a big gap in time between the initial withdrawals and the last. Maybe he was waiting on the money from the sale of the car to potentially hit the bank before having MB make the final, large withdrawal. And eventually decided it wasn’t worth the wait? Who knows.

RB could well have travelled overseas, possibly on an alias that has not yet been uncovered.

 

[ruby925]

IMO, RB creates his own reality, he plays mind games to confuse and gaslight; even when hard evidence is placed in front of him he will assert that evidence is wrong. He admits things that don't matter or conflict with his narrative, then denies, then he can't remember.

- He placed the ad - Yes, because it doesn't matter, it has nothing to do with Marion.
- Marion replied - He has changed his evidence numerous times, created confusion and diversion from the real way he met Marion. IMO it was at the Art Centre which he flatly denied.
- He visited Marion - Yes, because he initially believed the police had witnesses.
- Marion called his home - Yes, no, and last evidence was maybe, can't remember.
- Marion visited his home - IMO, a concocted story to divert attention to the mythical pilot character.

So, we have him admitting placing an ad in 1994 and visiting Marion a couple of times in 1997.
You really have to listen carefully to ALL his inquest evidence (multiple times) to understand how he functions.

The 1994 ad found by sleuths on here was the critical connection that led to RB being found and the name link to MB and her new name, but we know there could have been later ads with no name/other aliases that haven't been found yet. The 2 or 3 year gap bothers me, so another ad or the arts centre meeting makes more sense IMO.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I think what is telling is what RB has admitted to. Given he admits nothing usually I find it interesting what he has been prepared to concede. Clearly he thinks there is evidence to support these admissions.
- He placed the ad
- Marion replied to the ad
- He visited Marion
- Marion called his home in xx (I have COVID and cannot remember his address)
- Marion visited his home in xx

Based on those facts it seems likely that the last time he saw Marion was at his home after she arrived there to .... [confront him/access her belongings/something else]

Marion called him because somehow she managed to identify who he was. The 'lost license' situation may actually suggest Marion accessed his wallet and found his real license at some stage. Once she had that, she could easily locate him to confront him.

I don’t believe Marion saw his licence in wallet or his notion that she stole it
I would say something else brought things to a head
- Marion left for long periods of time alone
- Him admitting he wasn’t leaving his wife
- lots of her money either missing because he took it or Marion handing it over and not having access to whatever account it was moved to.
- Marion realising everything he had ever said was BS