Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[Estelle]

IMO. Not a chance in hell would she do that knowingly.

Would RB have just had his initials on the driving licence?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Would RB have just had his initials on the driving licence?

mine look like this for Europe in 1997 ( not my actual one)

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Would RB have just had his initials on the driving licence?

Oh yes I'm sure he would, if he thought it could help him with a scam or two.

 

[mishy66]

IMO. Not a chance in hell would she do that knowingly.

agree!

 

[mishy66]

Hi everyone, I am not familiar with all the information out there so hopefully not just asking the same question again (sorry if I am) - have searches been done around boat hiring, purchasing, licensing etc by RB in 1997? Bryon bay? Norfolk Pines picture?

For someone who is so sketchy and inconsistent with detail, RB offered the information about the tea chests and the uniformed man visiting his residence with Marion. Could he be setting up his story now in the event that something is discovered?

anyway just a thought

All BS about the pilot/officer etc etc and tea chests pick up - he obviously added that pearler because for some reason yet unknown to us, he was worried that something of Marions he stole or her DNA may be on something and he just covered his thick hide - IMO!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

So speculating about the initials. . . the bank accounts would have been easy to make joint accounts if that had been his objective. But he would have had to accompany her into the bank(s), and that would have exposed him. What else was there? So was it a projected scheme? ie something RB intended but never accomplished? Purchase of something? To my mind, nothing legal or official can be accomplished with initials alone. Unless maybe property? Property titles can specify any sort of name, like a trust, no social security or national numbers. Did RB plan that MB would buy property in UK for a school, then he'd take the papers and claim it as his own? Or a yacht. There was some talk of a yacht early on. (However, RB had vast amounts of experience with property transactions, having moved house constantly. Did he ever own property in UK?)
But then her banking setup wouldn't allow the transaction so MB had to return to Australia, and then became suspicious? What if real estate agents were targeted in the area MB frequented in UK? Or a real estate publication? Or yachting companies on the English coast? Although the school seems more likely to me, more targeted to MB's dreams.

But the goal could have been property in Luxembourg. A home for the newlyweds. .

So what would a chunk of property in UK cost in 1997, appropriate to housing a school? Would that be worth RB's con?

And finally, tell me how long we speculate RB was a part of MB's life. I don't believe she answered his 1994 ad. Too far in advance of the story action. I believe he used the same alias when they met.

 

[Carovb5]

And Willy WOUTERS aside from Wouters WILLY.

In Belgium the polite way back in the days was name first, surname last. On a lot of forms it’s still like that, but there are a bunch of them that ask for your surname first, name last. When writing fast, a lot of people start with their first name first, not reading what they have to fill in.

Wouter (without an s) is a first name in Belgium. WouterS not, never.

I myself don’t think he switched them on purpose. + while searching his whole name it will get the same hits, so it won’t change a thing

 

[ruby925]

So speculating about the initials. . . the bank accounts would have been easy to make joint accounts if that had been his objective. But he would have had to accompany her into the bank(s), and that would have exposed him. What else was there? So was it a projected scheme? ie something RB intended but never accomplished? Purchase of something? To my mind, nothing legal or official can be accomplished with initials alone. Unless maybe property? Property titles can specify any sort of name, like a trust, no social security or national numbers. Did RB plan that MB would buy property in UK for a school, then he'd take the papers and claim it as his own? Or a yacht. There was some talk of a yacht early on. (However, RB had vast amounts of experience with property transactions, having moved house constantly. Did he ever own property in UK?)
But then her banking setup wouldn't allow the transaction so MB had to return to Australia, and then became suspicious? What if real estate agents were targeted in the area MB frequented in UK? Or a real estate publication? Or yachting companies on the English coast? Although the school seems more likely to me, more targeted to MB's dreams.

But the goal could have been property in Luxembourg. A home for the newlyweds. .

So what would a chunk of property in UK cost in 1997, appropriate to housing a school? Would that be worth RB's con?

And finally, tell me how long we speculate RB was a part of MB's life. I don't believe she answered his 1994 ad. Too far in advance of the story action. I believe he used the same alias when they met.

Found a 3 bedroom detached house a few miles from Burwash that sold in 1999 for £160,000 (selling today for £550,000). Good property but nowhere near the size needed to convert to a school. House prices in the South East of UK have historically been much higher than in other parts of the country, so that kind of money would have bought more in the North East for example. Anyway average UK wage in 1997 was £16,500 per year, average house price was £76,000.
I don't believe that MB and RB were in contact for that long either, although she may have answered the original ad and nothing came of it. There may have been another ad which has not been discovered, but I think the 1994 one was a lucky find by the sleuths that led the authorities to RB, but was not actually connected to Mario. all JMO.
I can see why MB may have changed her name to Remakel if it was going to make life easier once married overseas etc, but the unusual first names can only be explained if the FNR international driving permit was required for the applications to be completed quickly IMO. Otherwise, MB could have chosen any first name that would avoid confusing her with her 'husband'? Why else could she be persuaded to choose those initials and first names?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I agree, @ruby925, whith everything you say. Thinking more along the lines of buying real estate in UK, I think it would have been more like "buying real estate in UK." RB would have needed friends to pull the con off, I imagine. A fake real estate transaction. Sign the papers, pay the money, et voila the property is Marion's. Or so she thinks. An RB friend could show a property, act the part of estate agent, put forth the fake documents for signing. Only without the money available in UK the transaction couldn't happen. (We just sold my mother's house and the transaction is fresh in my mind. How much we trusted the agent, how all the papers came in a flurry and we simply signed them.)

Or if the objective were a house in Luxembourg, RB might have learned MB couldn't access her cash while she was in UK. The trip back to AUS became imperative. He was so close! (the same initials would have made more sense on the Luxembourg swindle, imo. And RB would have had the satisfaction of implicating the real FR. Except. . .wouldn't the real FR have known and fingered RB if he were entangled in a crime he hadn't committed?)

This scenario makes sense to me because it explains RB's mounting tension/anger as the deal seems so close, then isn't. With MB back in AUS she is less under his thumb and more apt to question the whole thing. This is the part where I wonder if she didn't contact Owen-- not to disparage or accuse the dead-- but his suicide has always made me wonder if he knew something he couldn't talk about. It would have been horrific to carry that secret about a parent, and no child should ever have to be their parent's rescuer and savior.

anyway. No way to prove any of this. Just me hunching while I'm sick abed with COVID.

 

[Deleted member 83851]

Get better soon Mrs. Peel! The game is still afoot!

 

[KiwiNZ]

This scenario makes sense to me because it explains RB's mounting tension/anger as the deal seems so close, then isn't. With MB back in AUS she is less under his thumb and more apt to question the whole thing. This is the part where I wonder if she didn't contact Owen-- not to disparage or accuse the dead-- but his suicide has always made me wonder if he knew something he couldn't talk about. It would have been horrific to carry that secret about a parent, and no child should ever have to be their parent's rescuer and savior.

I personally don't the Owen knew anything, I think RB has blood on his hands with Owens suicide, I think he felt let down in life by his mother (perceived ), combined by other issues as well. I think Owen alliance was with his sister not his mother and he would have saved Sally the stress if he knew anything IMO.

I have gone around in circles on RB's end game, with the name and property, money etc... But even just as confusing is how he planned to use JO tittle deeds and home, she had 2 sons, he was connected to her Ex-husband via the coins circle, even if he did away with her how was that one going to play out ?

I see on the FB page they say they have had a few leads from the resent request for women who knew RB. fingers crossed

Hope you feel better soon Mrs Peel

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I personally don't the Owen knew anything, I think RB has blood on his hands with Owens suicide, I think he felt let down in life by his mother (perceived ), combined by other issues as well. I think Owen alliance was with his sister not his mother and he would have saved Sally the stress if he knew anything IMO.

I have gone around in circles on RB's end game, with the name and property, money etc... But even just as confusing is how he planned to use JO tittle deeds and home, she had 2 sons, he was connected to her Ex-husband via the coins circle, even if he did away with her how was that one going to play out ?

I see on the FB page they say they have had a few leads from the resent request for women who knew RB. fingers crossed

Hope you feel better soon Mrs Peel

Thank you @KiwiNZ and @Ooohm. As for Owen, it certainly doesn't matter and it's pure speculation on my part that his suicide may have been tied to guilt over his mother-- having spotted her, or turned down her request for help, ie-- but I agree 100% that RB has Owen's blood on his hands just by robbing him of his mother and escalating the difficult relationship between them by her absence.

Good news about the potential women who knew RB!

(((Hey??!! Are the emoji's gone?)))

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The Lady Vanishes

News Podcast · A much-loved mother, teacher and friend steps on a plane for an overseas adventure and is never seen again. Marion Barter, the former wife of Australian soccer great Johnny Warren, went missing in 199...

podcasts.apple.com

New Episode - The Lady Vanishes Episode 39 Twisted Tales

 

[mishy66]

I agree with you Kiwi.
And yes just what was he going to do with those deeds given JO had children and Blum knew the Ex.

I personally don't the Owen knew anything, I think RB has blood on his hands with Owens suicide, I think he felt let down in life by his mother (perceived ), combined by other issues as well. I think Owen alliance was with his sister not his mother and he would have saved Sally the stress if he knew anything IMO.

I have gone around in circles on RB's end game, with the name and property, money etc... But even just as confusing is how he planned to use JO tittle deeds and home, she had 2 sons, he was connected to her Ex-husband via the coins circle, even if he did away with her how was that one going to play out ?

I see on the FB page they say they have had a few leads from the resent request for women who knew RB. fingers crossed

Hope you feel better soon Mrs Peel

 

[BonnieB]

I agree with you Kiwi.
And yes just what was he going to do with those deeds given JO had children and Blum knew the Ex.

IMO they were in cahoots, Mike and Blum.
There is absolutely no way Blum could hope to pull off that caper with JO and not be recognized by Mike and Bazza afterwards, therefore IMO Mike was involved to some degree. It's public knowledge that Mike's divorce settlement was not a happy one, so perhaps he cooked up a plan to recoup some of his $$$'s

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

IMO they were in cahoots, Mike and Blum.
There is absolutely no way Blum could hope to pull off that caper with JO and not be recognized by Mike and Bazza afterwards, therefore IMO Mike was involved to some degree. It's public knowledge that Mike's divorce settlement was not a happy one, so perhaps he cooked up a plan to recoup some of his $$$'s

Refresh my memory @BonnieB-- but did RB actually do anything illegal with JO? Wasn't he careful to keep everything --he said/she said--? One of the problems with cons against women is how often the men do brazen things and get away with them because they haven't done anything technically illegal. Everything is GIVEN to them freely. This is the key to TINDER SWINDLER and other cons I've encountered recently. If so, then RB didn't give a toot what anyone knew or thought of him. He'd just turn around and talk about how barmy JO was.

 

[BonnieB]

Refresh my memory @BonnieB-- but did RB actually do anything illegal with JO? Wasn't he careful to keep everything --he said/she said--? One of the problems with cons against women is how often the men do brazen things and get away with them because they haven't done anything technically illegal. Everything is GIVEN to them freely. This is the key to TINDER SWINDLER and other cons I've encountered recently. If so, then RB didn't give a toot what anyone knew or thought of him. He'd just turn around and talk about how barmy JO was.

You're exactly right there, nothing technically illegal. The only thing he ended up with was some jewellery and worthless papers with no actual proof he stole them. Things might have been different if JO had not returned until early January.
I still wonder if he could have used JO's paperwork in a subsequent scam, to show some unsuspecting victim that he owned the property at Woodburn.

 

[mishy66]

IMO they were in cahoots, Mike and Blum.
There is absolutely no way Blum could hope to pull off that caper with JO and not be recognized by Mike and Bazza afterwards, therefore IMO Mike was involved to some degree. It's public knowledge that Mike's divorce settlement was not a happy one, so perhaps he cooked up a plan to recoup some of his $$$'s

Yes I agree of course!

 

[mishy66]

Yes I agree of course!

Home Title theft comes to my mind!

 

[mishy66]

You're exactly right there, nothing technically illegal. The only thing he ended up with was some jewellery and worthless papers with no actual proof he stole them. Things might have been different if JO had not returned until early January.
I still wonder if he could have used JO's paperwork in a subsequent scam, to show some unsuspecting victim that he owned the property at Woodburn.

Home Title theft comes to my mind!

Goes with all his aliases too.
Well documented in Forgery, Real Estate cons - Marion had 2 houses at some time prior to her name change, and his ability to talk BS