Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[Estelle]

Airport immigration was still very strict in 1997. It would have still been very hard to use her passport/ fake MBs handwriting (though not impossible). Also MB had a very distinctive face/features … I doubt diane could have passed for her.. even when younger.

In those days, apparently they simply changed the photo.

 

[Getro callum]

I agree. I think one possible distinction between MB and other victims was possibly MB learning his real identity or address. Perhaps she came across car sale title in his new car, or something like that.

Definitely think it’s likely she uncovered something about him after she returned. The only thing is how far would he go to cover his fraud? He could have tried the drugging/photo blackmailing avenue..and something went wrong? Life insurance?

 

[Estelle]

But I clearly remember travelling in the 90s and it wasn’t as easy as you may think… the passport itself was laminated with a special cover etc and if he was going to go the whole trouble of tampering with it why not just buy a new fake one or if it was his wife what is the purpose of travelling on MBs. Only needed the fake photo for the bank withdrawals. There is no valid reason for a fake MB entry to Australia. (Unless it was illegal immigration scam… & I don’t think he would have branched out this far)

You would have needed a very skilled laminating job to Change the passport photo and I don’t think he would have bothered… it was too easy for him to get money other ways… I mean women simply handed it to him. He used coercive control to get money which in a way is smarter because it’s legal (well was then).

IMO it was important for a fake MB to return to Australia so that there is proof she actually did and that it was she who made the withdrawals (when IMO MB was still in the UK unaware that he had flown home).

 

[Getro callum]

All he needed for someone to do that is for a female to use it as there is no photo ID on a Medicare card. DdH was the prefect choice.

Yes but why? There is no financial gain for using a Medicare card. It would be the last thing of someone else’s you’d think of using. (Unless you were an illegal immigrant). I think this makes it slightly more likely it was Marian.

 

[Getro callum]

Yes but why? There is no financial gain for using a Medicare card. It would be the last thing of someone else’s you’d think of using. (Unless you were an illegal immigrant). I think this makes it slightly more likely it was Marian.

Unless he knew she was gone and was plotting planning paper trails..
I think that’s a bit unlikely..

 

[Getro callum]

IMO it was important for a fake MB to return to Australia so that there is proof she actually did and that it was she who made the withdrawals.

Do you think it was that thought out? That seems highly planned..and then again with the Medicare card..
he wouldn’t have gone to that much trouble because he knew she changed her name…and possibly knew no one else knew..I think he presumed all was undetectable already without going to that extreme ..

 

[Estelle]

Yes but why? There is no financial gain for using a Medicare card. It would be the last thing of someone else’s you’d think of using. (Unless you were an illegal immigrant). I think this makes it slightly more likely it was Marian.

IMO it was to show proof of life here when she was back in the UK.

 

[Getro callum]

IMO it was to show proof of life here when she was back in the UK.

But he doesn’t seem that particular about covering his tracks … unless of course she did pass away overseas then you would definitely go to that extreme. But then if he knew she was gone I think he would have been too chicken to try and get her money out of the bank as he knew if she was found deceased the person accessing money would have a huge spotlight on themselves.

 

[Estelle]

Do you think it was that thought out? That seems highly planned..and then again with the Medicare card..
he wouldn’t have gone to that much trouble because he knew she changed her name…and possibly knew no one else knew..I think he presumed all was undetectable already without going to that extreme ..

IMO RB is no fool and could have a high IQ but also has a criminal mindset. IMO he predicts what may go wrong and does something to cover it. Not all of his plans work out because it often relies on another person agreeing to do whatever he wants them to do. When it goes wrong, he thinks of another idea. In this case, as Peralta said, there are two possibilities - MB still in the UK or MB has returned - to muddy the waters. It appears to me that he has tried very hard to cover both scenarios to give proof of life in both countries.

 

[Martinie]

But he doesn’t seem that particular about covering his tracks … unless of course she did pass away overseas then you would definitely go to that extreme. But then if he knew she was gone I think he would have been too chicken to try and get her money out of the bank as he knew if she was found deceased the person accessing money would have a huge spotlight on themselves.

He was found burning random papers, changed his appearance and names multiple times, took women out of their own country to defraud them and dump them o/s, etc seems to be covering his tracks ALOT. I think he's only smart at conning and would have made sure there was distance made between him and Marion travelling together and can say "Well she was alive when we stopped seeing each other in Aus"
Maybe something similar happened previously and he is making sure he can cover for it, as conmen refine their cons over time to be even better.

 

[Getro callum]

I had some dealing with banks overseas and it wasn’t that easy to do stuff over the phone ..becouse there was no email etc proving your ID was extremely difficult…doing faxes sometimes wasn’t allowed, I vaguely remember having to do justice of peace stuff…I can imagine myself doing something as random as flying home to sort access to my account out..

If she didn’t come home .. she was either dead not long after speaking to sally or had some other reason for not being in contact /having no other activity booked overseas in the weeks after speaking to Sal. And I doubt RB would have flown home after the person using MBs passport ..he usually heads home first..

I mean if she didn’t leave o/s. RB would have had to organise someone taking her place pretty damn fast.. seems unlikely…

Would be interesting if she found out he left and followed him home and he didn’t know about it..

Very interesting !

 

[Marg944]

Coroner Teresa O’Sullivan is due to hand down her findings on 30 November.

"The inquest was triggered by the acclaimed 7NEWS podcast The Lady Vanishes, which revealed Barter’s bank accounts were drained after she reportedly returned unexpectedly to Australia from what was supposed to be a year-long European vacation under the new name Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel, and was never seen by friends and family again.

The inquest has also heard from a convicted fraudster named Ric Blum who admits to having an affair with Barter around the time she went missing but denies having anything to do with her disappearance.

The Coroner is due to deliver her findings at Lidcombe in Sydney on November 30."

New witness describes meeting ‘airy-fairy’ Marion Barter before her mysterious disappearance

The former bank manager said her memory was triggered after seeing a billboard for a $250,000 reward in northern NSW.

7news.com.au

 

[Brown Alleycat]

I’m not certain I understand all of it, but I think this is the gist of Casselden’s case:

RB was trying to deceive Marion for financial gain (which is a crime) and his long history, plus JO & GGB’s experiences with RB, are evidence of it. He suggests RB spent time with Marion in the UK and the proof is the Narita notepaper.

However, he suggests Marion returned, willingly withdrew her own money, there’s no evidence RB forced her to do it, and it’s not known when or how she died, but she is most likely deceased now, due to leaving money untouched and not accessing superannuation.

If the Coroner agrees with everything Casselden says, then there’s no dots connecting RB with Marion’s death and RB with Marion’s money.

And because of that lack of connection between RB and her money, I’m not sure they can even pursue a criminal investigation for the ‘deceiving for financial gain’.

If the Coroner ends up saying Marion is likely deceased AND there IS a link between Marion’s money and RB, then one could argue that her money was motivation for her death. That would be a substantial reason to pursue criminal charges BUT I don’t know that there’s enough evidence for that.

Sometimes the Coroner says the Findings are ‘inconclusive’ but makes a point of naming a specific person as someone who was likely involved or likely responsible. That doesn’t necessarily get followed up with any charges, unfortunately.

Separately to all that, the Coroner will likely have a few words and recommendations to give police for their conduct during the early years of investigation. As missing person protocols have improved since then, I doubt her words to police will have any meaningful outcome. Although Sally might be able to pursue legal action.

If I had to guess next steps, then I’d say it’s worth JO, GGB, Ghislaine, and every other victim to come forward to press charges so that he has to go to trial for ‘deceiving for financial gain’ because there is a lot of evidence for it, and maybe in that process, investigators can discover more about other victims, his process, murder and Marion.

I fully expect ASIC, ATO, Centrelink and Immigration to investigate and take him to court as well. So there may be more secrets uncovered there.

I sadly don’t think Marion will get any justice from the Inquest, but at least it’ll be on record that she’s deceased, and Sally can pursue more avenues.

As for RB, I 100% think this is the tip of the iceberg and just the beginning of his downfall.

He’ll spend the rest of his days in court now. I hope he lives to 100. Anything less is not fair to his victims.

My opinion only. And it may change in 5 minutes I sometimes get things very right. And also get things very wrong.

*I don’t know what you mean by ‘future behaviour to support their argument’

Totally agree. And let's hope more women who are his victims come forward to tell their stories. I am sure there are many out there. I also think that authorities in Europe are interested to get him back there as I am sure there are many crimes he is wanted for there.

 

[gymtonic]

I had some dealing with banks overseas and it wasn’t that easy to do stuff over the phone ..becouse there was no email etc proving your ID was extremely difficult…doing faxes sometimes wasn’t allowed, I vaguely remember having to do justice of peace stuff…I can imagine myself doing something as random as flying home to sort access to my account out..

The other information to remember is that according to the Bank Manager of MB’s home bank account at CSB Ashmore, MB’s Visa Card was c/o Barclays Bank in Mint St, Rye, because of an arrangement with agent banks overseas and that Barclays Bank was a “recorded mailing address” for the Visa card and the CSB at Ashmore. Although she would still have to produce ID at the Rye bank, it does suggest that there is a relationship between her Oz bank and Barclays Bank in the UK (agent bank). It begs the question whether any issues could be sorted out via an agent bank in the UK through interbank communication.
The issues over banking have been knocked around for a considerable time on this forum and there are still many sticking points due to time and lack of records.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

The other information to remember is that according to the Bank Manager of MB’s home bank account at CSB Ashmore, MB’s Visa Card was c/o Barclays Bank in Mint St, Rye, because of an arrangement with agent banks overseas and that Barclays Bank was a “recorded mailing address” for the Visa card and the CSB at Ashmore. Although she would still have to produce ID at the Rye bank, it does suggest that there is a relationship between her Oz bank and Barclays Bank in the UK (agent bank). It begs the question whether any issues could be sorted out via an agent bank in the UK through interbank communication.
The issues over banking have been knocked around for a considerable time on this forum and there are still many sticking points due to time and lack of records.

But why a Barclays branch in the quaint little town of Rye in East Sussex? Why wasn’t it a Barclays branch in London or the one in Tunbridge Wells? When Marion landed in the UK I suspect she had little idea then the places she would be visiting or staying especially Rye which came later in her visit. Of course Rye is but a short distance from Burwash where RB (FdeH as he was then) and his family lived in the 1980s and he admits to visiting.

 

[KinseyFan]

How sad is it that all these women have been scammed over the years and nothing has been done for them? The few women that report it are placated and made to feel like it was their fault. If they do find the con artist the laws don't really give any sort of penalty. Why hasn't RB been arrested on several of the scams that come out so far? Are they making a case against for that at least? It did not really help the new Belgium woman when she reported it. They didn't take it seriously until the woman in Tornai reported them. There's got to be so many victims out there. The police she make a plea. I imagine there's women out there that have been scammed and are too ashamed and didn't realize they weren't the only ones.

The lawmakers and police need to take these cases seriously. Online scamming is far more popular today and nothing is done to help people get their money back. Again its your fault.

And he could still be scamming. Might be a long shot, but still a possibility?

 

[Martinie]

And he could still be scamming. Might be a long shot, but still a possibility?

wasn't hist last known one in 2013? He could have been scamming up until the cops come to visit him...

 

[mishy66]

Airport immigration was still very strict in 1997. It would have still been very hard to use her passport/ fake MBs handwriting (though not impossible). Also MB had a very distinctive face/features … I doubt diane could have passed for her.. even when younger.

Couldnt be too strict. RB spent a lifetime frauding immigraton.

As he said at the inquest, he had a habit of collecting passenger cards and filling them out for others. And getting Marion to fill out hers prior would be easy for him. Even getting her to sign a few would have been easy for him.
He is a conman.

 

[mishy66]

But I clearly remember travelling in the 90s and it wasn’t as easy as you may think… the passport itself was laminated with a special cover etc and if he was going to go the whole trouble of tampering with it why not just buy a new fake one or if it was his wife what is the purpose of travelling on MBs. Only needed the fake photo for the bank withdrawals. There is no valid reason for a fake MB entry to Australia. (Unless it was illegal immigration scam… & I don’t think he would have branched out this far)

You would have needed a very skilled laminating job to Change the passport photo and I don’t think he would have bothered… it was too easy for him to get money other ways… I mean women simply handed it to him. He used coercive control to get money which in a way is smarter because it’s legal (well was then).

RB was using fake passports well into the 2000's - he had 10 that we know of...

Using a passport in the name of FNMR would have been a piece of cake to this cad. Illegal immigration is nothing to a piece of work like him. He is a potential murderer.

 

[mishy66]

It was 8 days not 3, but I agree it’s still a short time but not unheard of and really only raised a red flag years later and in the context of this investigation. I had a friend from the UK come visit me in Oz for a few days back in the 80s as there was this (legal at the time) scheme going around where people who wanted something shipped to Australia could buy the ticket for the baggage allowance only and so you could fly to Oz for a few days with only carryon luggage.

…and yes, some people have been, and still are, so desperate to migrate to Australia and get past the restrictive migration criteria and process that they would risk buying a passport obtained by identity theft and have it falsified, and are willing to risk prosectution.

IMO flying back to Oz for 8 days to « sort out a banking issue » makes less sense than ringing the bank From O/S. Despite time difference and international phone calls it still doesn’t add up. If it was MB coming back and not wanting to raise a red flag, why write a short time on the card anyway? Whoever it was didn’t stay at the location named on the card Why write an accurate time span?

agree