Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[Deleted member 249471]

From what we know about JO, he took her overseas as a holiday to look around with view of starting a new life, and also possibility doing some business selling coins.

She never mentioned him asking her to sort out visa beforehand. It was even unclear what country they were going to stay in or potentially build a life in. France was mentioned yet she never went. The point is he fed her story after story and none of it was true or ever going to happen.

We also know he has a history of moving around countries completely dodging immigration rules.

And current investigators and homicide squad are doing a thorough job leaving no stone unturned. If they had ANY documentation about Marion overseas, it would’ve been shown as evidence at inquest.

All this to say, she most probably didn’t get a visa, teaching registration or marriage license/certificate overseas.

Leaving a trace goes against the point of the con. Misinformation and lies are his MO.

 

[hoodunnit]

Oh wow, they didn’t post it!

I had Youtube paused so I could back and go over a few things. Casselden is still on my vesion this morning (including the images of documents), right from the start.

The length of the video shows at 6 hours.
Is that what everyone else sees ?

Yes, 6 hours 8 minutes

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Remember Marion also said she put her things in a shipping container in case she wanted to permanently move overseas, presumably to teach. So we can assume this trip was a holiday and to have a look at possibilities for her future together with RB, much like JO’s trip, and not intended as her permanent move.

I think what muddies the water is the bank/police spreading the story she met a man and moved permanently overseas and didn’t want contact with her family.

As we heard in court, this is unreliable info that cannot be relied on as a fact as neither bank or police even have a name for who started this rumour.

If we take this unverified rumour out of the equation, then what we are left with is what Marion said (similar to JO) that she was going overseas as a holiday and to see if she’d like to eventually move permanently.

Even if we take the rumour into consideration, then she CAME BACK to sort out her belongings to THEN move permanently. But we know she never used her passport again.

Both these point to her trip being temporary and not needing a visa or permission to teach.

 

[mishy66]

So much of this story we are learning - The whole sad saga is almost unbelievable. HOW can one miserable, pathetic person con they way through life to create such tangled webs, that it takes down all of human kindness, trust and heartache. This case floors me.

Much of what has been said here and at the inquest yesterday adds to the bigger picture of what happened to Marion. The system has failed beyond measure to put away a lying, thief of a conman that came into their view back in the 60's.
The system has failed beyong measure to investigate thoroughly, a miserable piece of a human that would have protected so many 'Marions' that are yet to come forward and some who have no doubt come forward to report him over the years but not pieced the puzzle back to him.



She fell in love with a pig of a man and through her lies to protect him, left more questions than answers. I feel so sad for her, more than ever now. The whole system let her down. The NSW police force let her down, just as they did with so many other missing persons cases that have come to light. To stand there yesterday and pretty much blame SL for their lazy, pathetic ways of handling a missing person, was deplorable. Heartbreaking. They continue to show their lack of professionalism when they have to lay blame to a daughter who had no means to gather the information they could have had at the time.


IF Marion did arrive back into Australia for money purposes, and only have a small window to do so, WHY start withdrawing $500 a day from her account??? And start telling a teller "she was going to Bali", WHEN her life had done a 360 only weeks before by flying to the other side of the world to start a new married life with RB.


I am more convinced than ever now that Marion did not return back into Australia at all. And that RB and another female flew back into Australia ( either selling of her passport, or a female close to RB) and with the Marion Barter ID that RB had on him - either from the stolen purse at the school- or convincing Marion at the start he would hold all the paperwork ( as he so loved to do), started up a daily rapport with the bank tellers with daily withdrawals, telling them all sorts of BS until the trust was built to take the bounty.


I am more convinced than ever that DdH has a bigger part to play in all this.


RB is a master of ID fraud. He needed a person close to him to help and at one time I was sure it was his singing testicle lover, but she is too smart to be so stupid. He needed someone who he could keep control of and he had her right there under his own roof. IMO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yes, to everything you said .

And I agree, I know there is no proof, her passenger cards appear to be her returning to Australia, but I have switched perspective again since these last two inquest sessions, and don’t believe she returned to Australia.

He just didn’t need her. I believe he was trying to plant proof of life.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I am more convinced than ever now that Marion did not return back into Australia at all. And that RB and another female flew back into Australia ( either selling of her passport, or a female close to RB) and with the Marion Barter ID that RB had on him - either from the stolen purse at the school- or convincing Marion at the start he would hold all the paperwork ( as he so loved to do), started up a daily rapport with the bank tellers with daily withdrawals, telling them all sorts of BS until the trust was built to take the bounty.

I agree with your view, the whole things a s- show

but I still struggle with it not been Marion who returned - if we are to believe the call to Sally was made on the 31st then we would need to add another person to the con .. we would have RB in Aus and the MB impersonator on a Flight or on the stop over, and then someone has to kill her in the UK - I realize adding another person to the mix is not beyond impossible, but I am still struggling with it lol

July 31: Ric Blum in the name of Richard Lloyd Westbury (aka Fernand Remakel, Richard Lloyd Westbury, Frederick de Hedervary) arrives back in Brisbane, Australia.

July 31: Marion phones Sally allegedly from Tunbridge Wells, England (late afternoon/early evening AEST).

August 2: Marion arrives back to Australia at Brisbane Airport.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If Marion did make that flight back, which I personally find hard to believe, then my opinion is ‘something’ happened to her immediately thereafter and she had no part and no role in withdrawing money. I suspect RB had an insider at the bank or had picked off a soft ‘mark’ to target and who oversaw the withdrawals.

 

[gymtonic]

To work overseas as a teacher you would need a valid teacher registration. Did Marion change her Qld registration into the FNMR name? Have UK teaching registration records been checked?

As an ex Queensland teacher, I have raised many questions in the past about the Teacher Registration as no mention has been made in the inquest (or elsewhere as far as I can remember) about whether the registration was “actively“ cancelled (as opposed to a renewal lapse). I would say that judging by the the resignation letter, the registration was not changed to the new FNMR name (which might have required some doing) and the request to the school itself to renew the registration is a little curious as it is usually an individual that pays and organises the registration, not the school. What was the year mentioned in the letter?

I have had similar questions about the TUH Private Health Membership too and whether it was put on hold (which could be done for extended periods of travel overseas) and whether it was accessed, lapsed or cancelled. Only Medicare use and RACQ membership cancellation has been mentioned. BTR (QCT) registration and TUH could have been similarly investigated.

 

[gymtonic]

Did Marion not have any right to a UK passport? If I recall correctly, in the 90s the 'patriality' rules meant that only one grandparent needed to be British in order to qualify.

TBH, if you are in the company of a known forger, it would hardly matter if you had the “right” to a UK passport….if you know what I mean
MOO

 

[gymtonic]

Here's something worth a read... her two resignation letters start 12:30. Dated Sunday 13 April 1997 and resigning on 14 July 1997. I think she tells them she was "planning to travel to England and fulfilling much needed holiday dreams. I'm greatly looking forward to visiting the Partridge Family". I can't make out the rest.

The second one dated 16 June and resigning Friday 20 June because, "I'll be travelling overseas for an indefinite period and hopefully teaching in England and Europe. I'd like to renew my registration for 1996 in advance and advise you of my forwarding address for future renewal should I need to." And she gives Leslie's address.

It's very interesting that she said, "teaching in England and EUROPE". It suggests that by 16 June, she was aware she wasn't just going to England - she had ideas about travelling outside England.

Put that together with Casselden believing her passenger card as an indication she thought she was married and considered Luxembourg her new home.

Did the letter (dated 1997) say “renew registration for 1996 in advance“ or is that a typo here?

 

[gymtonic]

Remember Marion also said she put her things in a shipping container in case she wanted to permanently move overseas, presumably to teach. So we can assume this trip was a holiday and to have a look at possibilities for her future together with RB, much like JO’s trip, and not intended as her permanent move.

I think what muddies the water is the bank/police spreading the story she met a man and moved permanently overseas and didn’t want contact with her family.

As we heard in court, this is unreliable info that cannot be relied on as a fact as neither bank or police even have a name for who started this rumour.

If we take this unverified rumour out of the equation, then what we are left with is what Marion said (similar to JO) that she was going overseas as a holiday and to see if she’d like to eventually move permanently.

Even if we take the rumour into consideration, then she CAME BACK to sort out her belongings to THEN move permanently. But we know she never used her passport again.

Both these point to her trip being temporary and not needing a visa or permission to teach.

I always wonder…yes, no evidence of MB leaving the country again on the FNMR passport (or MB passport presumably) but if you’ve changed your name once and if you are in the sphere of influence of a known forger…what about another name change and passport. How this could be traced is anyone‘s guess, although ther was the famous case of the missing person in the US who changed name and got ID in that name and successively changed name using that ID. They did this multiple times until the link between the original name and the last known name was so tenuous it could onky be traced in retrospect (and after DNA ID).

MInd you I’m still not 100% convinced she returned anyway. I understand that the courts have to act on balance of probability, that it has to meet the required standard and not based on speculation, so I get why AC has determined that the passport arriving indicates it was MB that returned on August 2. The timing of the phone call to SL and the postcard date stamped still makes twitch! The second part of AC‘s explanation that the phone call made on the 31 July or 1 August was made either en route or on the first day when she landed in Australia makes no sense if she landed on August 2. And no explanation for the postcards raised either way?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

TBH, if you are in the company of a known forger, it would hardly matter if you had the “right” to a UK passport….if you know what I mean
MOO

Except that I believe that Marion would have wanted to go through the proper channels.

 

[Estelle]

nice find - I think - returning to the workforce training would fall under this ??

​

Finalised results obtained by students for non-award courses including continuing education programs and community courses.

Retain minimum of 7 years after action completed, then destroy

I used to teach on these TAFE courses in Sydney.

 

[gymtonic]

Except that I believe that Marion would have wanted to go through the proper channels.

I don’t think that is mutually exclusive as she might have thought she was going through the proper channels if RB was “in charge“ of organising it. If she was not aware of proper channels in other countries, I imagine it would be an easy task for a con artist to sound convincing and present official looking documents for signing. JMO MOO

 

[Estelle]

Tafe has had all kinds of courses over the years. They used to have a lot of hobby courses back then.
Like art, keep fit, languages, computers, dancing. A huge variety. Costs for the courses used to be very reasonable.

These days they are mostly vocational.

Being a retired TAFE Teacher, I disagree with this except for computing. These types of courses were not organised by TAFE. They were available in community evening colleges usually held in high schools.

 

[gymtonic]

I agree with your view, the whole things a s- show

but I still struggle with it not been Marion who returned - if we are to believe the call to Sally was made on the 31st then we would need to add another person to the con .. we would have RB in Aus and the MB impersonator on a Flight or on the stop over, and then someone has to kill her in the UK - I realize adding another person to the mix is not beyond impossible, but I am still struggling with it lol

July 31: Ric Blum in the name of Richard Lloyd Westbury (aka Fernand Remakel, Richard Lloyd Westbury, Frederick de Hedervary) arrives back in Brisbane, Australia.

July 31: Marion phones Sally allegedly from Tunbridge Wells, England (late afternoon/early evening AEST).

August 2: Marion arrives back to Australia at Brisbane Airport.

What if the person on the flight was not an “MB impersonator” but just some random person wishing to illegally waiting to enter Australia, and to whom an altered passport (doctored with new photo) has been sold? All speculation I know, but it’s not like that hasn’t happened before all around the world, where illegal migrants buy and use stolen altered passports and stolen or falsified ID papers.

 

[Estelle]

I know that course, it was called WOW, short for Women Out of Work.
Actually I may have assumed part of it was out of work, but I just searched and it said Wow is for Work Opportunities for Women.
I have my diploma somewhere LOL, not sure exactly where.

Men attended them too as I taught mixed courses at TAFE.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Being a retired TAFE Teacher, I disagree with this except for computing. These types of courses were not organised by TAFE. They were available in community evening colleges usually held in high schools.

The WOW course I did was in the TAFE building and was a TAFE course.

The others may have just used the TAFE building, but I do remember seeing the courses in the local paper and the courses had a TAFE heading so I would presume they were TAFE courses or organised by TAFE.

 

[KiwiNZ]

What if the person on the flight was not an “MB impersonator” but just some random person wishing to illegally waiting to enter Australia, and to whom an altered passport (doctored with new photo) has been sold? All speculation I know, but it’s not like that hasn’t happened before all around the world, where illegal migrants buy and use stolen altered passports and stolen or falsified ID papers.

possible ( and it's an area RB specializes in lol) but I was focused on the 3rd person required to kill Marion in the UK as RB and the person on the plane would not have been in the UK inline with her last phone call to Sally to kill her

 

[Estelle]

The bank manager said she was returning to work after having kids.

Although it was not mentioned and don't know if it applies to the situation, but sometimes Centrelink makes people do courses in order to keep receiving benefits until they get a job.

That's correct. All the students were on unemployment benefits and came from CentreLink.