Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[HinterlandObserver]

That's correct. All the students were on unemployment benefits and came from CentreLink.

Would that exclude disability pensioners?

 

[Estelle]

So much of this story we are learning - The whole sad saga is almost unbelievable. HOW can one miserable, pathetic person con they way through life to create such tangled webs, that it takes down all of human kindness, trust and heartache. This case floors me.

Much of what has been said here and at the inquest yesterday adds to the bigger picture of what happened to Marion. The system has failed beyond measure to put away a lying, thief of a conman that came into their view back in the 60's.
The system has failed beyong measure to investigate thoroughly, a miserable piece of a human that would have protected so many 'Marions' that are yet to come forward and some who have no doubt come forward to report him over the years but not pieced the puzzle back to him.



She fell in love with a pig of a man and through her lies to protect him, left more questions than answers. I feel so sad for her, more than ever now. The whole system let her down. The NSW police force let her down, just as they did with so many other missing persons cases that have come to light. To stand there yesterday and pretty much blame SL for their lazy, pathetic ways of handling a missing person, was deplorable. Heartbreaking. They continue to show their lack of professionalism when they have to lay blame to a daughter who had no means to gather the information they could have had at the time.


IF Marion did arrive back into Australia for money purposes, and only have a small window to do so, WHY start withdrawing $500 a day from her account??? And start telling a teller "she was going to Bali", WHEN her life had done a 360 only weeks before by flying to the other side of the world to start a new married life with RB.


I am more convinced than ever now that Marion did not return back into Australia at all. And that RB and another female flew back into Australia ( either selling of her passport, or a female close to RB) and with the Marion Barter ID that RB had on him - either from the stolen purse at the school- or convincing Marion at the start he would hold all the paperwork ( as he so loved to do), started up a daily rapport with the bank tellers with daily withdrawals, telling them all sorts of BS until the trust was built to take the bounty.


I am more convinced than ever that DdH has a bigger part to play in all this.


RB is a master of ID fraud. He needed a person close to him to help and at one time I was sure it was his singing testicle lover, but she is too smart to be so stupid. He needed someone who he could keep control of and he had her right there under his own roof. IMO

Excellent. This has been my theory for many years.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Did the letter (dated 1997) say “renew registration for 1996 in advance“ or is that a typo here?

I took it to mean she had her 1996 registration, it’d last a year and she was renewing that for 1997 taking it to 1998.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Would that exclude disability pensioners?

Hmm, interesting question and very good point.

I’m not sure but I think it depends on type of disability and what your doctor says you are capable of doing.

I’m not 100% sure but I imagine you can receive disability support and work reduced hours, but if you can't find a job then you would get a full benefit and be asked to attend training to expand skills. Hope that makes sense.

However, if RB had the type of disability that qualified him to have a full time carer (his wife) then he would not be required to look for work or attend up skilling courses.

Presioners on the other hand, receive full benefit without needing to look for work or attend courses.

So RB would not attend such a course, and as long as his wife was continuing on as a carer (or they were both pensioners), she wouldn’t need to do a course either.

It’s interesting because we know she had a court case against Coles. I assumed she took a job and the case was about wages because Coles was in trouble and had to pay back hundreds of staff around the time of her case. But if she was on a full carer benefit, then she couldn’t work. So I guess the case may’ve been about a slip or dodgy food or something like that. Always scamming

Of course, we know at least HE used other aliases to potentially receive benefits. And they may not have been disabled. So I guess it's possible he or she might've had to do a course for another alias.

But mostly, I doubt bank manager met anyone at the course that had to do with the case. He memory was vague and doesn't identify anyone or correspond to the lives of anyone involved in case. Most likely is that she was mistaken and misplaced her memory.

 

[gymtonic]

I took it to mean she had her 1996 registration, it’d last a year and she was renewing that for 1997 taking it to 1998.

I checked my paperwork and teacher registration lasted for 5 years, conditional on an annual fee being paid. After 5 years you had to renew. The form on the bottom of the certificate stated that any change of name had to be accompanied by certified documentary evidence - faxed or emailed copies not acceptable.

 

[gymtonic]

Being a retired TAFE Teacher, I disagree with this except for computing. These types of courses were not organised by TAFE. They were available in community evening colleges usually held in high schools.

Yes, I agree @Estelle and think the confusion comes about because the Whole TAFE system got restructured as part of a larger Higher Education review at one point.

 

[gymtonic]

To work overseas as a teacher you would need a valid teacher registration. Did Marion change her Qld registration into the FNMR name? Have UK teaching registration records been checked?

I just checked my own paperwork with BTR and “certified documentary evidence of all name changes must be provided - faxed or emailed copies NOT acceptable”.
I also notice though that “Failure to notify the [BTR/ QCT] (if you change your name) may result in financial penalty”.

 

[gymtonic]

Would that exclude disability pensioners?

What period of time are you asking about? because the whole CentreLink JobSeeker, DSP and Mutual obligations and ESAt, JCA requirements is a complex nightmare now!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I'm still thinking about Marion's medicare used in Grafton and the bank Manager living in Grafton.

I'm suspect current investigators noticed the connection and have checked to see if there is a link.

Yes, it may just be a huge coincidence. But it could also be something planned and purposeful.

If RB was trying to plant proof of life, why go to Grafton?
Is he trying to frame the bank manager somehow?
Did he go visit the bank manager's home?
Was Marion really there and she popped in to get her eyes tested while he did 'business'?
Remember he went to the shopping centre in Amsterdam with JO too?
Was the shipping container in Grafton or did he bury MB nearby?
If so, would he be so careless and leave a trail?
Could the point of taking his victims to a shopping centre is so an accomplice can 'see' the victim/target from a safe distance?
Could an accomplice try then try to imitate target, or further scam the victim, or be a hitman?
Hahaha, I'm going overboard.

We know he purchased a car specifically during that period to presumably travel somewhere, then sold the car.

How do you all think Grafton fits into the story? I'm genuinely curious for ideas.

 

[gymtonic]

I'm still thinking about Marion's medicare used in Grafton and the bank Manager living in Grafton.

I'm suspect current investigators noticed the connection and have checked to see if there is a link.

Yes, it may just be a huge coincidence. But it could also be something planned and purposeful.

If RB was trying to plant proof of life, why go to Grafton?
Is he trying to frame or involve bank manager somehow?
Was Marion really there and she popped in to get her eyes tested while he did 'business'?
Remember he went to the shopping centre in Amsterdam with JO too?
Was the shipping container in Grafton or did he bury MB nearby?
If so, would he be so careless and leave a trail?

We know he purchased a car specifically during that period to presumably travel somewhere, then sold the car.

How do you all think about how Grafton fits into the story?

Which Bank Manager lived in Grafton? JH?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Which Bank Manager lived in Grafton? JH?

Precisely. The one that gave evidence recently.

 

[gymtonic]

Precisely. The one that gave evidence recently.

Ah Ha! And hmmmmmm…..

 

[CavKinsk]

I am more convinced than ever now that Marion did not return back into Australia at all. And that RB and another female flew back into Australia

I am more convinced than ever that DdH has a bigger part to play in all this.

The only problem here is that DdH was "grossly overweight" and could never pass for Marion.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Which Bank Manager lived in Grafton? JH?

JH said she saw the poster when coming home FROM Grafton - I believe she lives in the Byron Bay area

Thats what I heard at 22 mins into the hearing or did I miss something more

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Here's something worth a read... her two resignation letters start 12:30. Dated Sunday 13 April 1997 and resigning on 14 July 1997. I think she tells them she was "planning to travel to England and fulfilling much needed holiday dreams. I'm greatly looking forward to visiting the Partridge Family". I can't make out the rest.

The second one dated 16 June and resigning Friday 20 June because, "I'll be travelling overseas for an indefinite period and hopefully teaching in England and Europe. I'd like to renew my registration for 1996 in advance and advise you of my forwarding address for future renewal should I need to." And she gives Leslie's address.

It's very interesting that she said, "teaching in England and EUROPE". It suggests that by 16 June, she was aware she wasn't just going to England - she had ideas about travelling outside England.

Put that together with Casselden believing her passenger card as an indication she thought she was married and considered Luxembourg her new home.

Did Marion ever get to mainland Europe? All the postcards and letter home came from England. Why no postcards say from Amsterdam which she mentions in her other postcards?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

So much of this story we are learning - The whole sad saga is almost unbelievable. HOW can one miserable, pathetic person con they way through life to create such tangled webs, that it takes down all of human kindness, trust and heartache. This case floors me.

Much of what has been said here and at the inquest yesterday adds to the bigger picture of what happened to Marion. The system has failed beyond measure to put away a lying, thief of a conman that came into their view back in the 60's.
The system has failed beyong measure to investigate thoroughly, a miserable piece of a human that would have protected so many 'Marions' that are yet to come forward and some who have no doubt come forward to report him over the years but not pieced the puzzle back to him.



She fell in love with a pig of a man and through her lies to protect him, left more questions than answers. I feel so sad for her, more than ever now. The whole system let her down. The NSW police force let her down, just as they did with so many other missing persons cases that have come to light. To stand there yesterday and pretty much blame SL for their lazy, pathetic ways of handling a missing person, was deplorable. Heartbreaking. They continue to show their lack of professionalism when they have to lay blame to a daughter who had no means to gather the information they could have had at the time.


IF Marion did arrive back into Australia for money purposes, and only have a small window to do so, WHY start withdrawing $500 a day from her account??? And start telling a teller "she was going to Bali", WHEN her life had done a 360 only weeks before by flying to the other side of the world to start a new married life with RB.


I am more convinced than ever now that Marion did not return back into Australia at all. And that RB and another female flew back into Australia ( either selling of her passport, or a female close to RB) and with the Marion Barter ID that RB had on him - either from the stolen purse at the school- or convincing Marion at the start he would hold all the paperwork ( as he so loved to do), started up a daily rapport with the bank tellers with daily withdrawals, telling them all sorts of BS until the trust was built to take the bounty.


I am more convinced than ever that DdH has a bigger part to play in all this.


RB is a master of ID fraud. He needed a person close to him to help and at one time I was sure it was his singing testicle lover, but she is too smart to be so stupid. He needed someone who he could keep control of and he had her right there under his own roof. IMO

Or perhaps he knew another female who could and would play the role of another woman. An actress would be useful.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Sally’s grandfathers notes state Security at the bank had spoken to Marion. How could anyone speak to her by phone? She had sold her house, as far as we know had no mobile phone, and was either staying in a hotel or temporary accommodation. If a change of phone number had been given when taking out the initial withdrawals (which I doubt) surely the new number would be on her bank records?

 

[sah10406]

Did Marion not have any right to a UK passport? If I recall correctly, in the 90s the 'patriality' rules meant that only one grandparent needed to be British in order to qualify.

No. Having a grandparent born in the UK makes you eligible for a 5-year Ancestry visa, not for a British passport. But either way, none of this was about MB taking the normal logical visa or passport steps to work or live in the UK, or to live in Luxembourg with her spouse. She was railroaded and love-bombed into this mad cruel plan, with barely time to think for herself that none of it made sense. RB was the master manipulator.

IMHO and MOO the plan RB (as FNR) presented to MB appears to be something like this. MB changes her name to FNML, ostensibly so they can travel apparently as man and wife with few questions and, with him being Belgian, they can live in Europe without her needing any visa. Luxembourg was probably bigged up with him being a name there. A problem was then concocted which meant they had to travel separately anyway, and she was encouraged to go to UK and enter as a tourist (again, visa not needed). They could meet up later in the UK or elsewhere in Europe to pick up their new life together.

This new life idea appears to have been strung along for many weeks, maybe even until she returned to Australia, still thinking it would happen, hence the info on the landing card. It's doubtful to me whether they ever met up in the UK.

It appears to be a chaotic trial version of the more finessed version with JO two years later.

All MOO!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

So much of this story we are learning - The whole sad saga is almost unbelievable. HOW can one miserable, pathetic person con they way through life to create such tangled webs, that it takes down all of human kindness, trust and heartache. This case floors me.

Much of what has been said here and at the inquest yesterday adds to the bigger picture of what happened to Marion. The system has failed beyond measure to put away a lying, thief of a conman that came into their view back in the 60's.
The system has failed beyong measure to investigate thoroughly, a miserable piece of a human that would have protected so many 'Marions' that are yet to come forward and some who have no doubt come forward to report him over the years but not pieced the puzzle back to him.



She fell in love with a pig of a man and through her lies to protect him, left more questions than answers. I feel so sad for her, more than ever now. The whole system let her down. The NSW police force let her down, just as they did with so many other missing persons cases that have come to light. To stand there yesterday and pretty much blame SL for their lazy, pathetic ways of handling a missing person, was deplorable. Heartbreaking. They continue to show their lack of professionalism when they have to lay blame to a daughter who had no means to gather the information they could have had at the time.


IF Marion did arrive back into Australia for money purposes, and only have a small window to do so, WHY start withdrawing $500 a day from her account??? And start telling a teller "she was going to Bali", WHEN her life had done a 360 only weeks before by flying to the other side of the world to start a new married life with RB.


I am more convinced than ever now that Marion did not return back into Australia at all. And that RB and another female flew back into Australia ( either selling of her passport, or a female close to RB) and with the Marion Barter ID that RB had on him - either from the stolen purse at the school- or convincing Marion at the start he would hold all the paperwork ( as he so loved to do), started up a daily rapport with the bank tellers with daily withdrawals, telling them all sorts of BS until the trust was built to take the bounty.


I am more convinced than ever that DdH has a bigger part to play in all this.


RB is a master of ID fraud. He needed a person close to him to help and at one time I was sure it was his singing testicle lover, but she is too smart to be so stupid. He needed someone who he could keep control of and he had her right there under his own roof. IMO

I was always in the ‘she returned camp’ but I’ve jumped the fence I do not believe based on the pattern of withdrawals that it was Marion who took the money out.

I don’t believe she returned at all.

Yes a female assisted agree with you Mishy

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I was always in the ‘she returned camp’ but I’ve jumped the fence I do not believe based on the pattern of withdrawals that it was Marion who took the money out.

I go between she returned and she didn't.

But either way, I don't believe she had any intention of never contacting her family again.