Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[*juniper*]

So, following on from my earlier post, I suggest that RB mistakenly thought that the name that was the key factor in immigration records, when in reality (IMO) it was the passport number. And as far as I know, MB had her original passport reissued in her new name, so there was that link between her original and new identities.

I have not wanted to post this before, because I find it so, so sad, but I believe that RB thought that by changing her name, there would be a completely new immigration record in a new identity. And, with all the secrecy about MB leaving Australia, and her travel on an unknown date/route/airline/itinerary, he thought she would just disappear somewhere in the UK. But, if anyone did check, there would be no record of MB entering the UK.

Lots of postcards and letters were sent from the UK as proof of her location. The Hotel Nikko Narita notepaper was also intended to confuse anyone looking for MB, as she did not travel via Japan. The last phone call to Sally was designed to reassure her that everything was ok and to buy some time before any alarms were raised.

MB then returned to Australia as planned by RB..... MOO

 

[KiwiNZ]

So, following on from my earlier post, I suggest that RB mistakenly thought that the name that was the key factor in immigration records, when in reality (IMO) it was the passport number. And as far as I know, MB had her original passport reissued in her new name, so there was that link between her original and new identities.

I have not wanted to post this before, because I find it so, so sad, but I believe that RB thought that by changing her name, there would be a completely new immigration record in a new identity. And, with all the secrecy about MB leaving Australia, and her travel on an unknown date/route/airline/itinerary, he thought she would just disappear somewhere in the UK. But, if anyone did check, there would be no record of MB entering the UK.

so is what you're saying is that RB spent his life thinking every time he changed his name and passport he thought he was untraceable when in fact he totally traceable back to his first identity in Aus. lol...

Shows he is actually as thick as a castle wall

 

[gymtonic]

I may be wrong, but when immigration was contacted by police and Sally, they were not checking passenger cards.

They simply saw movement related to her passport. Which was still showing her MB name because the FNMR name hadn't been linked to it yet.

But the passport number is different when you change your name and apply for a new passport under that name. The old passport and number is cancelled. It is an entirely different passport with a new name and number.

 

[*juniper*]

But the passport number is different when you change your name and apply for a new passport under that name. The old passport and number is cancelled. It is an entirely different passport with a new name and number.

yes, a completely new passport & passport number, but still linked to the same individual immigration record I believe. A bit like a new driving licence.

 

[gymtonic]

yes, a completely new passport & passport number, but still linked to the same individual immigration record I believe. A bit like a new driving licence.

OK, so if this is the case, and the friend was able to view the immigration record that showed both MB and FNMR passports “attached” to that record, then the friend would have known about the name change and not told SL?

 

[gymtonic]

so is what you're saying is that RB spent his life thinking every time he changed his name and passport he thought he was untraceable when in fact he totally traceable back to his first identity in Aus. lol...

Shows he is actually as thick as a castle wall

…and yet authorities did apparently ”lose” him for a long time, as evidenced by the NA record notations when they had no knowledge of his whereabouts but retrospectively have discovered he moved in and out of Australia. Even at the inquest, they still could not account for his arrival back into Australia at some points. They just know that he did because he left again! I’m not sure this “unique” immigration record theory is foolproof when it comes to tracing immigration movements on change of name. If it were, then RB a would have been traceable when they were looking for him and the lucrative illegal immigration schemes would never succeed. MOO

 

[*juniper*]

OK, so if this is the case, and the friend was able to view the immigration record that showed both MB and FNMR passports “attached” to that record, then the friend would have known about the name change and not told SL?

My theory is that due to slow data migration it took some time (a couple of years) before all of the old records were transferred into the new ICSE system so they were easily visible. It is possible that at the start of the process only the individual passport numbers were visible.

Or, maybe the friend did not have access to the full immigration record and could not see all details including any name changes.

 

[*juniper*]

so is what you're saying is that RB spent his life thinking every time he changed his name and passport he thought he was untraceable when in fact he totally traceable back to his first identity in Aus. lol...

Shows he is actually as thick as a castle wall

I think that when RB started, he was able to game the system with ease and yes, we know he was able to travel on passports in different names to his legal name. However, I believe he did not adapt to a more sophisticated system and he kept doing what he had always done and expected to get away with it as he had done previously.

 

[gymtonic]

My theory is that due to slow data migration it took some time (a couple of years) before all of the old records were transferred into the new ICSE system so they were easily visible. It is possible that at the start of the process only the individual passport numbers were visible.

Or, maybe the friend did not have access to the full immigration record and could not see all details including any name changes.

I guess we will never know unless we have expert immigration department advice available or the person who did the search! I have just surmised that the friend was asked by SL to search for her mother by name and date of departure (unless SL had MB’s old passport number to hand?) and then by some means the friend has found movements with the new passport number.

…and of course (as a side note) details of what SL’s friend did may never be known because, let’s face it, It probably wasn’t legal to search for and pass on that information without an official application by authorities?

 

[KiwiNZ]

…and yet authorities did apparently ”lose” him for a long time, as evidenced by the NA record notations when they had no knowledge of his whereabouts but retrospectively have discovered he moved in and out of Australia. Even at the inquest, they still could not account for his arrival back into Australia at some points. They just know that he did because he left again! I’m not sure this “unique” immigration record theory is foolproof when it comes to tracing immigration movements on change of name. If it were, then RB a would have been traceable when they were looking for him and the lucrative illegal immigration schemes would never succeed. MOO

I assume - and I don't really understand how this all works - he travelled on stolen / fake passports, or passports gained with others identity, as well as changed his name via deed poll to get new passports - the later easy to trace by authorities

 

[ruby925]

I am still in the 'Marion returned' camp, but now feel MB did not make the cash withdrawals. IMO, the smaller amount of 500 daily withdrawals was testing the water, establishing a routine and being seen multiple times at the bank, so that the bigger 80k withdrawal would not raise suspicion. MB may still have been alive at this point in case the plan didn't work with an imposter, but unaware of the money coming out of the account. JMO obviously.

 

[Justgottaknow110]

How do you know that DdH was "grossly overweight" i

The description was from a police witness statement of a business owner who knew the couple. It is not my description. Ddh retains a very different body type to Marian to this day.

Even if she was, I know from my own experiences with yo-yoing weight of 30kg+ that the bank have never asked me about it.

 

[Martinie]

Yes, that has been one of my issues. In terms of escalation of crime pattern it doesn’t fit. Others have said that maybe he intended worse for JO but it seems clear to me that he was trying to ditch JO in the UK once he had clear access. On the other hand we only have a snapshot of those 3 women and maybe there is a bigger pattern with other, as yet unknown, victims.
JMO

Marion could have confronted him or slapped him and he lost it and lashed out in anger and accidentally killing her? Maybe there is other victims we don't know of because they're dead and just another missing person. I wish I had the time to check other missing persons in all the areas he has lived...

 

[Deleted member 249471]

My theory is that due to slow data migration it took some time (a couple of years) before all of the old records were transferred into the new ICSE system so they were easily visible. It is possible that at the start of the process only the individual passport numbers were visible.

Or, maybe the friend did not have access to the full immigration record and could not see all details including any name changes.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. I've been thinking about my experience with old databases... they have a lot of limitations.

Firstly, from what I can tell from police notes, Sally and police searched immigration records with Marion's name and date of birth, not passport numbers. Here's an example of what might've happened:

When Marion got her new passport, she got a new number and a new profile on the database.
The new number was immediately linked on her old profile, and the old number may have been linked to her new profile.
But the database was not able to display or link both profiles at once.

Eg, if you searched for 'Marion', you'd get a list of 'Marion's', and you'd chose the one that matched her birth date.

OR you could search by birth date, get a long list, then chose the name you're looking for. The FNMR profile would be there too but no-one knew it had any significance.

Once in her profile, it would show her name and flight details, but not much else.

However, if you searched for her old passport number, then you'd get a list of two entries - her old and new name.
That would've made it obvious she had an old and new passport.

Eventually, a new database was created that could link multiple profiles together and made them easier to view at the same time so this sort of thing stopped happening. Something like that. It's just a theory.

 

[Bibno]

I have not wanted to post this before, because I find it so, so sad, but I believe that RB thought that by changing her name, there would be a completely new immigration record in a new identity. And, with all the secrecy about MB leaving Australia, and her travel on an unknown date/route/airline/itinerary, he thought she would just disappear somewhere in the UK. But, if anyone did check, there would be no record of MB entering the UK.

This is an excellent point, and I think you’re right.

so is what you're saying is that RB spent his life thinking every time he changed his name and passport he thought he was untraceable when in fact he totally traceable back to his first identity in Aus. lol...

Shows he is actually as thick as a castle wall

I think he was basing his thinking in a time when it was extremely labour intensive to access and link paper records. It only became easy with the digitisation of these paper records.

 

[KiwiNZ]

How do we explain that they couldn't find her DL - either as FNMR or MB - I note the name Natalia is spelt wrong (natalali) on per D/L - she also left her address unchanged but had already sold her house - was it just bad police work, they never actually checked ?

 

[Maddieb]

I still think RB had a specific reason for MB to change her name and initials to match his FNR. A dangerous deal/transaction. Needed ID proof of name…. A used/stamped passport more convincing than new/untraveled. None of his other known victims were asked to change their names. I think he intended to scam her and take her money like he did/tried to with the others, but also think in MBs case he needed to send her into a situation to finalize a big scam…… maybe the person he was scamming knew him as another name so he couldn’t access money under his FNR alias. Still something significant here to uncover I’m sure.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I still think RB had a specific reason for MB to change her name and initials to match his FNR. A dangerous deal/transaction. Needed ID proof of name…. A used/stamped passport more convincing than new/untraveled. None of his other known victims were asked to change their names. I think he intended to scam her and take her money like he did/tried to with the others, but also think in MBs case he needed to send her into a situation to finalize a big scam…… maybe the person he was scamming knew him as another name so he couldn’t access money under his FNR alias. Still something significant here to uncover I’m sure.

I agree, however, it is also the area where he badly tripped up, it turns out after all these years, it provided the only clear link to himself. Had the case been taken seriously in the first place, this may have been discovered so much sooner. However, the point is that in this single action he 'revealed' his true identity. I agree with your idea that this was motivated by a 'big win' and I would add therefore he became reckless.

At first I wondered if RB simply intended to use that false ID as a stand alone thing and then ultimately lead any potential detection to the real FNR which would land him a lot of confusing trouble. However, I now suspect he was trying to proceed on a very convoluted scheme to dispossess the real FNR of all his assets. I feel sure he has accomplice(s) and wonder if there was someone located mostly in Luxembourg?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I still think RB had a specific reason for MB to change her name and initials to match his FNR. A dangerous deal/transaction. Needed ID proof of name…. A used/stamped passport more convincing than new/untraveled. None of his other known victims were asked to change their names. I think he intended to scam her and take her money like he did/tried to with the others, but also think in MBs case he needed to send her into a situation to finalize a big scam…… maybe the person he was scamming knew him as another name so he couldn’t access money under his FNR alias. Still something significant here to uncover I’m sure.

I am still going between this was a highly organized crime and RB is a complete buffoon and had no idea what he was doing just making it up as he went along and the FMNR name didn't actually help him get hold of her money (so he didn't repeat that with other victims) - is the reason we can't piece this together because we can't fathom the mind of such a dysfunctional idiot

 

[mishy66]

OK, so if this is the case, and the friend was able to view the immigration record that showed both MB and FNMR passports “attached” to that record, then the friend would have known about the name change and not told SL?

Sally was not informed of the name change until May 2011 when she read the information on the police file. She then contacted her friend at customs who confirmed it.....