Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[Estelle]

My gut feeling has always been that MB didn't survive many days after her last phone call. I don't think RB murdered MB as he was in Australia. I doubt whether he spent much time with MB in England and used some excuse to disappear once he had what he needed. His focus was to scam her for her money. He may have been with her at the beginning in UK and then a few days at the end. Then told her the Dutch Dentist would look after her (has was the hit man) and Maz was the one who flew back to Australia using her passport which they stole from Marion and possibly changed the photo. I have also thought that Maz could have have been DdH who made a quick trip over to spend the last few days there with MB then flew back while her daughter attended a swim camp in the school holidays or over a weekend so she was staying somewhere else.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I am still going between this was a highly organized crime and RB is a complete buffoon and had no idea what he was doing just making it up as he went along and the FMNR name didn't actually help him get hold of her money (so he didn't repeat that with other victims) - is the reason we can't piece this together because we can't fathom the mind of such a dysfunctional idiot

I somewhat disagree with the bumbling idiot narrative re RB, although I feel hateful towards him. He has conned and scammed and lied his way through life and lived on the edge. He has travelled through many many countries and speaks a few languages, he's well read, and he knows how to forge documents and other things and play around with multiple identities, businesses, companies, finances, and evade detection. He's also streetwise and interpersonally deceptive and charming. That's quite a skillset albeit put to bad use. He has a criminal mind and sometimes that can be a sign of real creative genius (not saying he is). His bumbling idiot routine in court was an act and also may genuinely be down to the fact he's old now and very shocked at being caught out.

If we can't think of why he would persuade MB to use the FMNR name then maybe the simplest explanation is the one - that he was working up to scamming the real FNR, or in the real FNR's name, with an unwitting MB playing his wife.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

My gut feeling has always been that MB didn't survive many days after her last phone call. I don't think RB murdered MB as he was in Australia. I doubt whether he spent much time with MB in England and used some excuse to disappear once he had what he needed. His focus was to scam her for her money. He may have been with her at the beginning in UK and then a few days at the end. Then told her the Dutch Dentist would look after her (has was the hit man) and Maz was the one who flew back to Australia using her passport which they stole from Marion and possibly changed the photo. I have also thought that Maz could have have been DdH who made a quick trip over to spend the last few days there with MB then flew back while her daughter attended a swim camp in the school holidays or over a weekend so she was staying somewhere else.

I agree. And maybe 'Maz' befriending the real Marion, getting to know her and the way she is, ready to take her identity over. She may have even worn MB's clothes and accessories to pull off the bank scam

 

[gymtonic]

Sally was not informed of the name change until May 2011 when she read the information on the police file. She then contacted her friend at customs who confirmed it.....

Well that timeline makes a lot more sense!

 

[*juniper*]

I have found some old comments relating to MB's immigration history, made by SL on the facebook page. Sorry, I am not sure how to post the link.

from 12 February 2013:
"Zero activity since she was recorded coming back into Australia in August 1997. The passport custsoms record I was shown had all her previous married names on it as well as her maiden name- all under the same passport number... The only way she could have left the country again would be if she had a fake passport made... My mum never came across to me as savvy enough or street smart to make this happen, so unless she got help? I'm not sure"

from 10 October 2018:
"As the police have refused to help me further - I’m going solo and doing it myself!
I have a theory!
If we can look at the flight mum flew out on - the list of people on that flight
(Did her passport have her as Marion Barter or Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel*?)
Against the flight she supposedly flew back in on under the new name* on her passport,,,
If we have the same person on both flights - they could be a person of interest!
Thoughts??"

What I find interesting is that in 2018, SL did not seem to know which name MB used when she left Australia. Or am I missing something?

 

[gwebb9]

I have spent the weekend replaying Thursday's Submissions via Youtube. I have read some of your comments but will read them through more thoroughly over the next week. I do not have any helpful suggestions or theories. I am not that clever. I have to listen and relisten and then listen again to get the gist of what went on.

I would like to say that Friday would have been very hard for SL and I want to say so many things about the NSW Police's Submissions and responses.... but alas, I might get booted. It did make me cry that they were so unremorseful and tried to throw SL under the bus!!!!! And when the Assisting Counsel stated that they believe MB is deceased..... just hearing it said out loud was heartbreaking. Just so so sad.

When I have, and will soon, go/gone through your theories and musings, and opinions, it helps me to understand things so much more.

 

[gwebb9]

grrrrr..... I don't know how to delete.... again errors in posting. I do apologise

 

[mishy66]

Shane Frederick David deHedervary ~ another name to add to the list of aliases

 

[gymtonic]

Shane Frederick David deHedervary ~ another name to add to the list of aliases

I thought that was just a slightly off pronunciation of 'Chaim' FDdeH?

 

[mishy66]

I thought that was just a slightly off pronunciation of 'Chaim' FDdeH?

Me too first up but I have listened to it 5 times and close up lol. It sounds like a shane to me.

Chaim is a hewbrew name so the ch is a hard K

Anyone else confirm AC is meaning Chaim?

 

[gymtonic]

Me too first up but I have listened to it 5 times and close up lol. It sounds like a shane to me.

Chaim is a hewbrew name so the ch is a hard K

Anyone else confirm AC is meaning Chaim?

Yes, it sounded like Shane to me as well at the time, but I do think that AC misspoke because he did not go on to list the "Chaim" name.

 

[KittensAugustus]

Did Marion have a middle name?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

grrrrr..... I don't know how to delete.... again errors in posting. I do apologise

In this forum, we aren't able to delete something once posted so you would need to go back and 'edit' the post and then usually people just put 'DBM' = deleted by me and sometimes a short explanation such as 'double post' or 'posted in error'. If it's urgent you could contact an admin and ask them to delete your post if they are able.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Me too first up but I have listened to it 5 times and close up lol. It sounds like a shane to me.

Chaim is a hewbrew name so the ch is a hard K

Anyone else confirm AC is meaning Chaim?

Chaim is a name that when pronounced as the jewish traditionally say it sounds like 'Hi-am' with the first 'ch' bit really from the back of the throat as if you were clearing your throat. People who don't know the name or origin could say it wrong in lots of ways including like 'shame' I suppose?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I somewhat disagree with the bumbling idiot narrative re RB, although I feel hateful towards him

I agree.
I would say "crafty" would be an apt description of him...

Crafty Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › crafty
sly, cunning, crafty, wily, tricky, foxy, artful, slick mean attaining or seeking to attain one's ends by guileful or devious means.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree.
I would say "crafty" would be an apt description of him...

Crafty Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › crafty
sly, cunning, crafty, wily, tricky, foxy, artful, slick mean attaining or seeking to attain one's ends by guileful or devious means.

Yes indeed and since he's probably quite intelligent and spent all day every day for his whole life being crafty then it's an art form he perfected IMO. I think his demise would start to occur when all records became digitised and also shared amongst countries. There was a time when in order to trace flight details one had to physically go through wades of ticket sales stubs - one would need to know which airline and which flight were in question and have a very good reason for using all that time and effort.

His 'schtick' for luring kind and gentle women could well have been to play the vulnerable or bumbling act. That's what Narcs and Sociopaths sometimes do, they play on empathy and induce nurturing feelings in the target. I don't buy his schtick for one minute and he's probably outwitted many extremely intelligent and wise people in his life.

 

[Meligator]

Just re that bit: I had in my notes from inquest that the transaction was recorded as INT code which was used for both and international transfer and also a transfer between Australian Accounts. I guess if you were told that the transfer was INT then you might initially assume it was an international transfer until it was pointed out that it could be used for both?

that makes sense

 

[Meligator]

I still think RB had a specific reason for MB to change her name and initials to match his FNR. A dangerous deal/transaction. Needed ID proof of name…. A used/stamped passport more convincing than new/untraveled. None of his other known victims were asked to change their names. I think he intended to scam her and take her money like he did/tried to with the others, but also think in MBs case he needed to send her into a situation to finalize a big scam…… maybe the person he was scamming knew him as another name so he couldn’t access money under his FNR alias. Still something significant here to uncover I’m sure.

IMO, Marion's return trip to AU was unexpected (to her) & she intended it to be brief. She had kept her relationship with RB secret up until that point, so to tell her family she had returned to AU would have required a lot of awkward explaining. From Marion's perspective, she was working on establishing her new life with RB overseas before reaching out to family to say she had met someone & all was great. I don't believe she wanted to disappear, but just wanted to avoid criticism of running off with a man.

While she was in AU, she probably was just mostly waiting around while RB flitted in an out on "business-related" tasks. She probably took advantage of down time by tying up loose ends (trip to the eye doctor, cancelling car insurance) --all the while thinking she & RB would soon return overseas. On Oct 15, RB was able to get access to her money. I don't believe she was alive very long, after that date because everything related to Marion abruptly ceases (no more passport, bank, Medicare card etc.), despite there being a fair amount of activity before that.

It's possible that RB just disappeared leaving MB in complete despair and suicidal. BUT I think there are some clues that's not the case. The fact that RB got rid of his FR driver's license and never traveled on the Japan airline again suggest he was making efforts post-theft to distance himself from Marion. BUT, importantly, these changes don't actually distance him from Marion in any effective way. They are useless acts of desperation. He took proactive steps to commit the fraud (use fake name, never reveal his address). These post-theft, reactive steps, i believe, suggest something happened beyond his planned thieving.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I know this is re-hashing old ground but having refreshed myself of what MC said about RB (link below), she stated that when they first met he told her he was a special agent working for the British Embassy in Luxembourg.

Assuming he told Marion the exact same story, that would explain what she thought they were doing in the UK, separate from one another much of the time (him on work related tasks at the UK Embassy) and why she maybe believed she was about to become a housewife residing in Luxembourg.

She would be persuaded that RB and authorities far above him knew best about passports and international travel documents, maybe even allowing everything to be done for her.

To me, it seems unlikely she came back to Australia but even if she did, it was on very limited time as RB would need to urgently remove her from the equation. Unlike with JO he had no doubt coerced Marion to sell her house and bank the funds, so he had 'improved' or adapted his scam a notch but it's pretty much the same game. As he could be so easily identified by the victim, it speaks to a logical consequence that he had to take extreme action to take poor Marion out from this life

The bizarre love letter that may be key to cracking the Lady Vanishes mystery

‘You’re a song in a man’s testicles ... I have never in my life made love like that with anyone before.’

7news.com.au

 

[gwebb9]

In this forum, we aren't able to delete something once posted so you would need to go back and 'edit' the post and then usually people just put 'DBM' = deleted by me and sometimes a short explanation such as 'double post' or 'posted in error'. If it's urgent you could contact an admin and ask them to delete your post if they are able.

Thank you.