Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[KiwiNZ]

Did Marion have a middle name?

no she didn't

 

[mishy66]

Chaim is a name that when pronounced as the jewish traditionally say it sounds like 'Hi-am' with the first 'ch' bit really from the back of the throat as if you were clearing your throat. People who don't know the name or origin could say it wrong in lots of ways including like 'shame' I suppose?

yes I realise that, I was just simplifying the sound.

In any case it sounded like Shane and was obviously mispronounced as @gymtonic said above.

 

[mishy66]

Sometime in mid 1996 Marion applied for a passport in Marion Barter name but doesn't travel on this passport.

Given that RB and Marion may have already met - this is the same year she won teacher of year, travelled to Tasmania with her friend and saying how unhappy she was at TTS........by December that year she has told her family she plans to travel for a year........so, it is feasible that this MB passport was used as ID at the bank for those withdrawals back in Australia. ( RB possibly having told MB he would hold it safe for her with all her other documents....)

RB is a mastermind at fraundulent passports, one new photo and we have a new MB to use as ID here in Australia.
Her travel card states she would be here for 8 days. WHY bother with $500 daily withdrawals after such a long trip back on limited time. Surely she wouldn't have been flying back for 8 days with her mountain of luggage either.

The withdrawals started AFTER the 8 day period, so why would that be?

IF it was Marion flying home, then either she was back to confront him and something happened to her in that 8 day period, OR someone else used her ID to fly in and someone else began to withdraw her funds after the 8 day period.

 

[*juniper*]

IMO, Marion's return trip to AU was unexpected (to her) & she intended it to be brief. She had kept her relationship with RB secret up until that point, so to tell her family she had returned to AU would have required a lot of awkward explaining. From Marion's perspective, she was working on establishing her new life with RB overseas before reaching out to family to say she had met someone & all was great. I don't believe she wanted to disappear, but just wanted to avoid criticism of running off with a man.

While she was in AU, she probably was just mostly waiting around while RB flitted in an out on "business-related" tasks. She probably took advantage of down time by tying up loose ends (trip to the eye doctor, cancelling car insurance) --all the while thinking she & RB would soon return overseas. On Oct 15, RB was able to get access to her money. I don't believe she was alive very long, after that date because everything related to Marion abruptly ceases (no more passport, bank, Medicare card etc.), despite there being a fair amount of activity before that.

It's possible that RB just disappeared leaving MB in complete despair and suicidal. BUT I think there are some clues that's not the case. The fact that RB got rid of his FR driver's license and never traveled on the Japan airline again suggest he was making efforts post-theft to distance himself from Marion. BUT, importantly, these changes don't actually distance him from Marion in any effective way. They are useless acts of desperation. He took proactive steps to commit the fraud (use fake name, never reveal his address). These post-theft, reactive steps, i believe, suggest something happened beyond his planned thieving.

Could these reactive steps have been initiated by RB on learning that someone was making enquiries about MB in Byron Bay?

If someone knew that MB had returned to Australia, then it was possible they also knew about her name change and maybe even that she traveled to the UK via Korean Airlines and not Japan Airlines. MOO.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Surely she wouldn't have been flying back for 8 days with her mountain of luggage either.

I assume her cases were left in the baggage lock up that RB liked his victims to use (same as JO who never saw her luggage again)

Thats what makes me think he was with Marion in Heathrow (or whatever airport they flew into) and he suggested to use the baggage lock up.

 

[gymtonic]

Sometime in mid 1996 Marion applied for a passport in Marion Barter name but doesn't travel on this passport.

Given that RB and Marion may have already met - this is the same year she won teacher of year, travelled to Tasmania with her friend and saying how unhappy she was at TTS........by December that year she has told her family she plans to travel for a year........so, it is feasible that this MB passport was used as ID at the bank for those withdrawals back in Australia. ( RB possibly having told MB he would hold it safe for her with all her other documents....)

I have wondered about the applications for 2 different passports a year apart but for me (IMO) that narrows down the time frame for meeting RB and being persuaded to change her name. The procedure though, is for any previous passport to be surrendered on application for another and the corner is snipped from the old passport and returned. I would think that any bank seeing a passport with a snipped edge would recognise it as a cancelled one and thus it would not be useable as an ID.

The only thing that might change this is if MB told the passport office that the previous passport was lost (when it wasn't). IMO RB has done this on at least two occasions:
- 23 Feb 1976 when applying for Australian citizenship he claimed his Belgian passport was lost in 1970
- 2 April 1981 also claims his Australian passport has been lost and got a new one issued at the Australian Embassy in Germany

I would think though that Immigration would have records if MB had claimed her 1996 passport was lost?

 

[mishy66]

The only thing that might change this is if MB told the passport office that the previous passport was lost (when it wasn't). IMO RB has done this on at least two occasions:
- 23 Feb 1976 when applying for Australian citizenship he claimed his Belgian passport was lost in 1970
- 2 April 1981 also claims his Australian passport has been lost and got a new one issued at the Australian Embassy in Germany

My thoughts too.

RB as we all know is a master at ID fraud with no moral compass.

We have heard he did this yes but we have also not heard about all the other aliases that he took on, so just how many passports does he have..... There is so much we dont know yet.

For me though, he has complete disregard for the laws. His plans aren't off the fly, he plans with meticulous detail and lies through his teeth as we all witnessed at the inquest.

I put nothing past him.

 

[Bagpus]

IMO, Marion's return trip to AU was unexpected (to her) & she intended it to be brief. She had kept her relationship with RB secret up until that point, so to tell her family she had returned to AU would have required a lot of awkward explaining. From Marion's perspective, she was working on establishing her new life with RB overseas before reaching out to family to say she had met someone & all was great. I don't believe she wanted to disappear, but just wanted to avoid criticism of running off with a man.

While she was in AU, she probably was just mostly waiting around while RB flitted in an out on "business-related" tasks. She probably took advantage of down time by tying up loose ends (trip to the eye doctor, cancelling car insurance) --all the while thinking she & RB would soon return overseas. On Oct 15, RB was able to get access to her money. I don't believe she was alive very long, after that date because everything related to Marion abruptly ceases (no more passport, bank, Medicare card etc.), despite there being a fair amount of activity before that.

It's possible that RB just disappeared leaving MB in complete despair and suicidal. BUT I think there are some clues that's not the case. The fact that RB got rid of his FR driver's license and never traveled on the Japan airline again suggest he was making efforts post-theft to distance himself from Marion. BUT, importantly, these changes don't actually distance him from Marion in any effective way. They are useless acts of desperation. He took proactive steps to commit the fraud (use fake name, never reveal his address). These post-theft, reactive steps, i believe, suggest something happened beyond his planned thieving.

I agree. I also think MB's death was unintended. It appears to me that his treatment of Jo was an attempt to refine the method, without a death, but keeping the high returns (house proceeds).

 

[KiwiNZ]

I agree. I also think MB's death was unintended. It appears to me that his treatment of Jo was an attempt to refine the method, without a death, but keeping the high returns (house proceeds).

If we believe Marion didn't return and was killed in the UK (requiring an accomplice) then the only difference, I can see is that Marion could afford her own accommodation in the UK and JO could not and had to go to her cousin's house, which could have put a spanner in the works. However, if we think this is a scam that involves more people, and the intention was to knock off JO as well, you would think investing in some accommodation for her to reduce the risk of been caught would have been the obvious thing to do.

Was it a POE that JO signed ?? and if so did she have to be dead for him to execute it ?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If we believe Marion didn't return and was killed in the UK (requiring an accomplice) then the only difference, I can see is that Marion could afford her own accommodation in the UK and JO could not and had to go to her cousin's house, which could have put a spanner in the works. However, if we think this is a scam that involves more people, and the intention was to knock off JO as well, you would think investing in some accommodation for her to reduce the risk of been caught would have been the obvious thing to do.

Was it a POE that JO signed ?? and if so did she have to be dead for him to execute it ?

Can someone remind me, what was it that RB suggested JO do with herself in the UK whilst he was gone? I seem to recall it was to wait for him for a month? Maybe in this case he felt he could go back, sell her house from under her feet - or perpetrate some sideways fraud that pertained to the property - and by the time she got back he'd be long gone and she wouldn't know who he really is, no-one would believe her, and he had blackmail? Therefore he wouldn't need her deceased.

In order to steal Marion's life savings and sale of her house money, he'd need a different plan.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Can someone remind me, what was it that RB suggested JO do with herself in the UK whilst he was gone? I seem to recall it was to wait for him for a month? Maybe in this case he felt he could go back, sell her house from under her feet - or perpetrate some sideways fraud that pertained to the property - and by the time she got back he'd be long gone and she wouldn't know who he really is, no-one would believe her, and he had blackmail? Therefore he wouldn't need her deceased.

I bet he got the shock of his life when he got to her house and saw her there

 

[KiwiNZ]

Can someone remind me, what was it that RB suggested JO do with herself in the UK whilst he was gone? I seem to recall it was to wait for him for a month? Maybe in this case he felt he could go back, sell her house from under her feet - or perpetrate some sideways fraud that pertained to the property - and by the time she got back he'd be long gone and she wouldn't know who he really is, no-one would believe her, and he had blackmail? Therefore he wouldn't need her deceased.

In order to steal Marion's life savings and sale of her house money, he'd need a different plan.

But she did know him, he was the same circle of friends as her Ex-husband - coin nerds - that's how he got his hooks into her and she dropped him at the "BIG PRAWN" often enough to have an idea where he live

I would like to understand what circumstance he could use the POE - death only ?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Can someone remind me, what was it that RB suggested JO do with herself in the UK whilst he was gone? I seem to recall it was to wait for him for a month? Maybe in this case he felt he could go back, sell her house from under her feet - or perpetrate some sideways fraud that pertained to the property - and by the time she got back he'd be long gone and she wouldn't know who he really is, no-one would believe her, and he had blackmail? Therefore he wouldn't need her deceased.

In order to steal Marion's life savings and sale of her house money, he'd need a different plan.

Also wanted to add she had 2 sons, so you would think they may ask questions how her house could be stolen from under her. JO signed a legal document (POE) so it wouldn't just be as straight forward as her just getting the house back, but it would probably be enough for a police visit and legal proceedings ... DHD would have found out about that, turn a blind eye, again?

 

[Bagpus]

If we believe Marion didn't return and was killed in the UK (requiring an accomplice) then the only difference, I can see is that Marion could afford her own accommodation in the UK and JO could not and had to go to her cousin's house, which could have put a spanner in the works. However, if we think this is a scam that involves more people, and the intention was to knock off JO as well, you would think investing in some accommodation for her to reduce the risk of been caught would have been the obvious thing to do.

Was it a POE that JO signed ?? and if so did she have to be dead for him to execute it ?

I personally think she came back. I think MB made the smaller withdrawals. I think RB got impatient at how slowly it was going, and had a dispute with her. Perhaps that's how she died. He then organised the transfer before disappearing and moving house.

Given how often he moved house, I would also think that's how he planned to escape Jo when she eventually returned.

I personally don't see a criminal mastermind. He didn't have enough to show for his efforts for that to be the case. I see more of a bumbling idiot who got in over his head.

I think unintelligent criminals can be the most dangerous.

 

[KittensAugustus]

I wonder whether airports keep records of unclaimed luggage left in airport lockers?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

But she did know him, he was the same circle of friends as her Ex-husband - coin nerds - that's how he got his hooks into her and she dropped him at the "BIG PRAWN" often enough to have an idea where he live

I would like to understand what circumstance he could use the POE - death only ?

Ah thanks for the info. So, I think this was said in the past but perhaps JO had a lucky escape and maybe a) something was 'meant' to happen to her in the UK in which case he certainly has an accomplice but how would he know where she was located; b) he was genuinely intending to go back and forth to the UK another time after putting some things in place back in Australia he would have potentially come back to join her and then there would have been a bit more to JO's story?

Maybe, if Marion returned to Australia, that's what he said to her? I've gotta be in Australia for few weeks to sort some urgent business stuff out, you stay here in the UK and I'll be back and we can have our (fantasy) life together? Maybe, like JO, Marion thought well no actually I'm going to head back too and see what he's doing. Maybe that's why she took a different flight? Maybe that's why she said she was going to go silent for a couple of weeks whilst she sorted some things out?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Now we know the initial withdrawals were smaller - $500 a time (are we sure of that or was it an error?), can we assume that maybe those withdrawals were made via the ATM and not over the counter?

I live in the UK but around that time in the 90s the upper limit on most ATM machines was between £250 - £500 cash a day depending which bank / branch / machine you used. Therefore if one wanted to skip having to wait in the bank queue for whatever reason, or bring to attention a large cash withdrawal, it was easy to take out £500 a day and not have the bother of awkward questions or flag up the transaction being noted or have to ask the bank the day before to prepare to give you a few grand over the counter, they used to request 24hrs notice and I think it was anything over £2,000 (maybe £4,000) was a 'noted' transaction.

If it was Marion herself who withdrew the money, perhaps she would have used the ATM so as not to be recognised or get into conversation with anyone who knew her?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

On a separate subject, does anyone know if RB is known to be a sailor? Yachts maybe? He wanted to allegedly buy the boat for him and MC to sail off into the romantic sunset. Did he mention boats or anything such to JO? Is it at all possible that he could have taken Marion out to sea on a vessel?

 

[Meligator]

On a separate subject, does anyone know if RB is known to be a sailor? Yachts maybe? He wanted to allegedly buy the boat for him and MC to sail off into the romantic sunset. Did he mention boats or anything such to JO? Is it at all possible that he could have taken Marion out to sea on a vessel?

I don’t recall anything about him being a sailor, but I totally agree with your thinking of where he could have taken Marion to hide her body. There must be areas he frequented or had particular knowledge about that would be worth a good search.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don’t recall anything about him being a sailor, but I totally agree with your thinking of where he could have taken Marion to hide her body. There must be areas he frequented or had particular knowledge about that would be worth a good search.

Indeed if there is any suspicion that Marion made it back to Australia then places RB frequented or visited or any action he took during that time frame could be really important.

Obviously, I guess we all know that and I'm not the first to think it but prior to recently I felt there was no way Marion made it back to Australia, now I'm thinking maybe she did, in the same way JO did, maybe with suspicions, maybe to clarify a few things with RB, maybe to tie up a few loose ends on the future fantasy notion that they'd both be returning to Europe within the month.

I personally don't believe Marion made the big transfer and I don't believe she was the person anyone in the bank claims to have seen. I find it hard to believe RB could have an accomplice, it's a very rare thing for people to be complicit in murder although not unheard of and it seems unlikely he'd hire a hit man so whatever happened to Marion was most likely at his hands, he's a big fellow and I bet he used to be strong. IMO JMO